Throwing Muses: C-o-D

Best track: "Fish" off the LONELY IS AN EYESORE 4AD compilation (the title of the album is a lyrical swipe from said tune as well).

As far as Hersh herself is considered, I haven't really liked much after Hips and Makers. She remains a unique lyricist, but the music seems so tame and normal in comparison. I'd hate to suggest -- a la Erica Jong -- that the decline is a result of positive lifestyle developments. You have to admit she isn't as fiery or great as she once was.

As far as Hersh the mother is considered, I'm normally irritated by couples who opt to overpopulate the planet with a big litter of offspring. Hersh is an exception to this -- the more of her genes floating around the better.

Had she kicked it by the end of the '80s, I agree she'd be quite the cult. Probably just above the level of Mary Margaret O'Hara (who is still alive, actually).

"Mexican Women" off House Tornado still spooks me. The line about running over the hill to tear off skin and eat it up comes to mind.

I used to whole-heartedly adore _Hips & Makers_, but soon found it to be a bit too samey. The same with _Strange Angels_ - both albums have amazing songs, though. It just seems that there's always that song (or two of those songs) that sabotage the pacing. _Sky Motel_ sounds like a return to her Throwing Muses days, but is a bit lackluster (again, with some gems in the rough). Those In The Know say that _Sunny Border Blue_ is her best yet. But they always say that.

I still like the first album just fine, though they drifted on material between that album and Ramona. For the later material, I like Limbo okay, but I much prefer University, which is chilling and slinky at the same time. (I'm convinced that after the disastrously ugly Red Heaven, Hersh took some time to learn restraint again, with the great Hips and Makes album, and then took those lessons back to the band format for University.) So. Classic.

'Ramona' also marked the last Muses lp with Tanya Donelly...

Don't agree about Red Heaven - side one, possibly best TM ever. Will expand tomorrow.

Another classic - "University" - contains best TM track "Bright yellow gun". That drumming!

Duds - Hunkpapa, Fat Skier, most of debut, side 2 of House Tornado.

Anyhow, absolute classic. Probably my favourite band ever. House Tornado and The Real Ramona are the peaks but I also love the first album, Fat Skier and Chains Changed unreservedly. I reckon they had a bit of a slump after Tanya left, as one of their main attractions for me was the interplay between the two guitars and voices, but University is still a fine album. Hunkpapa is the only serious misstep, with all its filler and mistaken attempts at going pop. Hips and Makers is also great but the last couple of Hersh solo albums have been a bit weak.

It's not as *finished* as The Real Ramona or University, but probably the one I'd say best defines what TM are *about*. It's a type of album I like - sort of like a Scooby album, but not quite. Can't think of a neat way to describe it, but these albums are usually seen as a move in a different direction, often a slightly wrong move (not a total disaster though), and polarise opinion like crazy. They're the kind of album I seek out. Other examples : "Brotherhood" , "Monster", "Punch the Clock".

I'd put them on a classic/sacred cow status equal to that of "The Smiths" (not the Smiths the band necessarily, but The Smiths, the Legend). In fact, for many of the same reasons-

First off, stunning and original guitarwork and musicianship (the hypnotic drums, especially the use of rolls for texture has only ever been matched by Echo & the Bunnymen)

Second, the interplay between two very powerful yet opposed figures (Ver Muses, however, managed to hold fast to their musical ideals even after the figures parted, as evidenced by the quality of the solo work)

Third, because no one has ever managed to quite penetrate and articulate the exact dimensions of the adolescent female mind in quite the same way. ("Delicate Cutters") In fact, probably *all* of the female experience- motherhood, madness, marriage, adulthood- without ever being cloyingly sentimental or insipid, or verving into the other extreme of being overly feminazi. Hersch simply *is* female, and she expresses it perfectly, not as an afterthought or a gimmick.

Standouts for me are:

The self titled album. I can no longer actually listen to this album, because it expressed and encapsulated so perfectly a time in my life that I would rather forget. It's not a fault of the album that I can no longer listen to it, but rather shows the POWER of it.

The Real Ramona. The two sisters at their most balanced, their most equal in power and songwriting ability, and of course, the band could not survive in that form. Also the most pop, and probably the most easily listenable of the albums.

Hips and Makers. Hersch wandering around the big, empty, spooky house of finally being a proper grown-up and wondering what to do with all the space. Never did anything so sparse sound so lush.

The distinction I make here also has a slightly bogus look. I haven't expressed it too well. But I suppose my point is: there is no difference, really - at least *in this particular context* - between the Smiths (the great pop group who changed so many of our lives) and "The Smiths" ("the great pop group who changed so many of our lives").

The Smiths (the band) = either "they saved my angsty teenage life" or "miserable whinging git Morrosey and his Elvis-ripping off henchmen" while The Smiths (the legend) = greatest British band since the Beatles, etc. etc. etc. and all the dissecting of the legend and the personalitys that shaped it and so on.

I was comparing TM to the legend, in terms of their status as giants of music.

Did I say "their"?

What you say above is eloquent and admirable. I wonder if one day you will be able to convince me of it. And I wonder what it would take.

I "heart" you, Stevie.

The physical - yes. "House Tornado" - yes (it made no sense to me and I ignored the tape for weeks; it made sense somewhere near the perimeter of an MoD firing range on Formby beach, late summer '89, wind whipping sand into my headphones).

The most excited I've ever been at a gig - Muses, Trent Poly, Feb '91. The most excited I've ever been about a forthcoming release - "The Real Ramona", Feb '91. The most disappointed I've ever been by an eagerly-awaited release - "Red Heaven", Aug '92.

Right - come on, Roger...

It must seem unreasonable of me to nitpick away at it like this. I'm not trying to say they're a Dud. I just don't quite see the Classic bit, either, on the whole.

"Not Too Soon" sounds totally out of place on _The Real Ramona_. It sticks out like a polished diamond in a pile of tarnished silver dollars. And it's Tanya's best TM offering, by a wide country hectare.

And it's funny that someone (Sean) thinks that _Hips & Makers_ is a back-to-basics move. I felt the same way, but I think that _University_ was actually recorded BEFORE _Hips & Makers_. I forget where I heard that, but I used that information (& that theory) as the foundation for my breathless praise of _Limbo_ on my site.

I can't remember the thread where this discussion took place.

BUT all I was really looking for from our Scouse friends was a (favourable) description which was a little bit 'closer to the music'. Stevie's stuff about Camille Paglia is great - but it's great cos Stevie is great, not (I submit) because TH are great (and CERTAINLY not cos Camille Paglia is great; heaven forfend).

I appreciate that the desire for a description which is 'closer to the music' might be another chimera - another senseless request which our Scouse friends will find it impossible to fulfil. At the end of the day (Clive), I have a feeling that they are talking as much about themselves as about TM - who (I suspect) were very important to them at a certain time in their lives and have thus made a kind of emotional imprint that they can't really explain. That is not a criticism - it might be the best reason for loving a bit of pop music (I think it's my usual reason). It's just that it's not very 'transferrable'. I can appreciate that TM meant something to little Stevie T when he was a wee boy writing vast dissertations for Christopher Bigsby - but I can't hear that in their records. (Or can I?)

You have clearly forgotten the early 90s, when every band from Suede to Blur was described as "The Best British Band Since The Smiths". That's legendeering on a scale with the B**tles.

Back on TM again, yesterday afternoon at the HMV mega-sale, I actually went and bought a copy of House Tornado and Fat Skiier on CD to replace vinyl back in storage. Damn ILM for influencing my record buying habits!!! Second time this week!

Wrong again.

I have not forgotten the early 90s. At least, not totally. I wish I could remember them a little more vividly than I do - but really, that's another thread entirely.

Your argument now seems to be that because some media people in the early 90s implied that the Smiths were a great band, they're not really a great band - that was just all Legend stuff. Whereas (you asserted above) talking about 'That Miserable Git Morrissey' is not Legend-peddling, but is simply the rough, unvarnished Truth.

From my POV (which as ever is not anyone else's POV), the Smiths are perhaps the greatest British band after the Beatles. Put it another way: they are perhaps the most important band to me ever. This is not much to do with constructing Legends; it's just the way I feel about this band. (I don't ask anyone else to share this feeling.)

I fear that what this 'debate' comes down to is that you don't like the Smiths much, and I do. Fear not, I have no desire to make you like them more.

But that does not stop them from having a "Legend" which has far overtaken either their music or their lasting influence. You are just unable to see them because your devotion outweighs your rationality.

If some people/lots of people/everyone except me/no-one thinks a particular artist is the best ever it couldn't possibly change the way that I think by itself. (However,weight of opinion might suggest that I have another listen and I COULD have been wrong all along : "Loveless". That's different.)

Masonic Boom: disappointed by your resort to cheap abuse. I maintain that you are mistaken and your distinction is, in this instance, utterly BOGUS. BUT you were right about one thing earlier: this is the Muses thread and we ought to be discussing them.

Totally sublime, forgive-them-anything-for-that Throwing Muses moment which Scouse worshippers at shrine of Hersh have not mentioned (perhaps don't like?): TWO STEP.

Sean Carruthers - Yes it rocks, but thats not its why it holds its own. Yes, maybe they did have something to prove and in my mind they did. The Real Ramona was a great album, but a follow-on would've been impossible. With Donelly onboard, it could've easily turned out to be little more than sugar-coated pop dross. Not that I dislike Donelly's post-Muses ventures, its just that I think another Ramona would've involved too many compromises. Tanya and Kristin were obviously going in different directions.

I agree with Dr C. - Red Heaven is a classic album. Its raw and fresh, like one of them just said "well its just me and you now, lets get down to it". Red Heaven really conveys a sense of rapport, especially Rosetta Stone. Kristin seems to hit upon something that transcends the 'bit'iness of some of their previous outings. To me, it appears as if she finally managed to give all her ambivalence a face of its own. Red Heaven has a very rich character, indeed. If they were attempting to reinstate a more personal and intimate sense of identity, then I think they certainly achieved it.

Given the choice between:-

a) a "chilling and slinky" male fantasy involving Kristin Hersh, ice cream and a black negligee.

and

b) the opportunity to ride along with someone blowing out the cobwebs during a transitional phase in their life.

... I would take the latter ;)

I definitely wouldn't say that you're only familiar with the "dud album", Dyson. From what I've heard of her discography it sounds like Hersh started with her most apocalyptic (or grating, depending on your tastes) work and then gradually mellowed, while remaining off-kilter and "in touch with her emotions". I'd certainly give the older stuff a try, but it's pretty up in the air what you'll prefer. I'm not sure myself, but my girlfriend would vote for "The Real Ramona" as her fave.

I don't know if the "Mr. Huberty" reference in "Hate My Way" is common knowledge (I only learned about it a few years ago), but he's the man responsible for a 1984 mass shooting at a McDonald's in California:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Ysidro_McDonald%27s_massacre
This song still rattles me every time I listen to it, after 30+ years...

Matt I think I was at that 94 show too - there was merch that I recall was a tomato or apple on the front of the tshirt? And I was mad I couldnt buy one cos I hadn't brought any extra money with me (which seems bonkers but in those days I didnt drink).

I also have the red bright yello gun tshirt ha.

hi guys, this revive made me dig out my old external drive so i could hear limbo again. thank you for the discussion and reminder of this masterpiece! it's such a monolithic album of 90s indie-ness and every goddamn song is arranged so incredibly perfect. it rocks out, it does ballads, classic jangly chamber pop, and a whole lot of heart. the way a lot of the songs just drop and change direction is so disorienting and exhilarating —— i could kiss you for remembering my address for crying out loud. i know i talk a big mess about the first album being kristin's definitive statement (and i probably will ride with that in the end); but if that album was unrefined, unfiltered, unadulterated chaotic kristin, limbo is all of those things polished over and made to be the best versions of themselves. i used to ride hard for "tar kissers" and swore up and down that was the pinnacle of this era. but listening now, i have at least 5 tracks that i could see saying the same exact thing about (and none of them are "tar kissers" — though that one still smashes). i was wanting to pick a song to put on my radio station playlist, but i can't narrow it down further than half of the damn album! is limbo her best work? dunno, but it sounds better than ever.

(and it has one of the prettiest/best hidden tracks ever with "white bikini sand")

i had some extras saved on that drive and i wanted to play you guys the demo of "serene" (retitled here "serene swing") so i had to upload it to youtube—
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c94BhagMCP4

i guess if forced to pick a single favorite track right now, it's definitely "serene." the original album version is pretty nice chamber pop and one of the album's calmest moments. "serene swing" though — !!?!?! clattering and just the complete opposite of everything about the finished version. really dig the crazy horse vibes. this fucking woman. what an absolute titan.

i have not the language to convey what i'm saying here so i'm just going to spit—

that transition from "shark" to "white bikini sand" just has something so entirely period specific to it. like there's certain media or technology that we sometimes say, "well that could have only worked in the (time period)." and i think about that transition "shark" is ultimately a rewarding song, but it's noisy, kind of dissonant. it ends on a long fadeout, an unsure coda. then "white bikini sand" comes in and is nothing but steady pleasant vibes. and it works so perfectly that the only cliche i can come up with is that it only would worked in the 90s.

I love Limbo too, it hit hard after a run of slightly diminishing, more cluttered albums and they came back ripped and focused as a trio. Everything about this record is a reinvention, down to the artwork, and I fell in love with them all over. Favourite is probably the title track, so apocalyptic and off-kilter, but it's ALL gold. Also loved the fast version of Teller they played on the tour.

slightly disappointed that, of all the times i've seen kristin in all of her various roles, they've never played anything from limbo.

Ignore my stupidity, of course University was a trio album as well, but Limbo was much gnarlier and more muscular.

def feels like a lost album these days (so does the kind of contemporaneous bob mould self titled album on ryko)

also hi again, sorry for tangent--

if you like the more orchestrated, multi-parted beach boys-esque turns mid song, and more of kristin's wry, yowling narratives and you've never dug into her albums sky motel and sunny border blue, do yourself a favor and visit/revisit. it's almost like an epic spiritual trilogy in hindsight -- that was basically her trajectory from 96-02: limbo-> sky motel-> sunny border blue. each album gets a bit more reflective and rootsy until sunny border blue contains a few songs about her old band and ends with pure catharsis on "listerine." gives me chills just thinking about it. anyway, yeah: those albums maybe don't ROCK as hard, but are definitely part of the same universe as limbo. highly recommended.

jeez she has a new album and I didn't even know

(Clear Pond Road released on May 30th)

New Music Announced

The new Throwing Muses record “Moonlight Concessions” is done, teaser single coming soon. Thank you Strange Angel listener supporters for helping us stay musically idealistic in an industry that prefers vanity and product. It’s everything to us. pic.twitter.com/I8x5frTyro

— Throwing Muses (@throwingmuses) October 23, 2024

listening now. it's good and comforting to hear her. "albatross" is great.

this is good but I don't know how this isn't just a Hersh solo album; is David even on it?

yeah, it definitely feels like more of her album, but muses are touring so idk if dave is still on board. info is sparse.

but again: regardless of what name she's using, the album is good.

Seing them (or is it only her?) in Oslo in two weeks.

The guitar tone in The Field is the greatest ever.

Per a Reddit thread, the current tour is Hersh, Pete on cello, her son Dylan on bass and Fred Abong on drums. They sound pretty flat in the performances I saw on YouTube. Not sure if I’d want to go tbh.

I am so glad you posted this - they're playing in Glasgow tonight and I only found out about 30 mins ago and I was feeling really annoyed I had completely missed any news about it

wait David isn't drumming any more?!?

Not on the new album or apparently this tour, at least.

gah

I like the new album and very much enjoy her bluesky posting but I LOVE his drumming

am seeing them a week today, hopefully youtube isn't doing them justice

It’s really been bugging me. Dave has been in Throwing Muses since 1983. When there were two of them it was just Dave and Kristin, even Leslie was credited as a guest on Red Heaven. When the Muses coexisted with Fifty Foot Wave the only difference was Dave vs Rob Ahlers. I would never pretend he’s a creative force on par with KH, but god dammit no Dave no Muses. It’s a KH touring band, same as the last TM record is a KH record. I know better than to judge when I don’t know the situation it it feels like it lacks integrity after all these years.

*but it

I think Dave's pretty wrapped up in his graphic design business these days. Last saw him in April after his dad, who was a popular coach and guidance counselor at the high school I went to, passed away.

big sigh. i like dave's style a lot (percussive+graphic). glad i got to see the kristin/dave/barney trio a couple times. i remember kristin posting a lot on her blog around the time of the 2003 4ad album. she would make a lot of seemingly insignificant, but kind of snarky references, to dave. "37 hours" from her sunny border blue album is about him. i've always gotten the impression that he's a fairly private person and, especially in later years, required some coaxing to continue touring.

all of this aside, her songwriting chops have not wavered at all over the years. it's kind of a weird dynamic that the records continue to be good, but the legacy of the band and who's involved in what is getting sticky. unfortunately.

do more than 2-3 songs on the new album even have drums?

ach, yeah, I should not have said anything when I didn’t know anything

I have a soft spot for Dave because when the Australian label offered phoners to promote University, I got to talk to him for an hour - he blew off the next interview and patiently told me all about the early days. And then when I flew to see them on the tour I spotted him and said hello, whereupon he invited me and my friend backstage and shared the rider. Sorry - I’m sure I have already told this story here.

3 July 2019, as Zing kindly placed my previous telling at the top of the last 100 posts on this thread.

I mean really it isn't Throwing Muses without Tanya Donnelly or Leslie Langston either but that ship has kinda sailed. This is like fourth-era Throwing Muses I guess.

I certainly wouldn't NOT see this Muses lineup because there's no David playing, and at least Fred is 'in the family'. The names Hersh decides to put on her projects have become somewhat mysterious to me now; Possible Dust Clouds sounds more like a Muses album than the new one, for instance. there was a point where she said economic conditions kind of dictated this; if an album / tour was a Muses thing, it might make more money but it was also a lot more expensive to tour because she was committed to paying David and whoever played bass more money as well.

I'd still go to this because she will play Bright Yellow Gun while playing a show as Muses, despite who is in the band; but she wont' do that as 50 Ft. Wave or solo (probably).

I have a soft spot for Dave because when the Australian label offered phoners to promote University, I got to talk to him for an hour - he blew off the next interview and patiently told me all about the early days.

!!!! so jellllllllllll

Anyway I came here for the same reason, I was looking up deets of the new tour and was like "wtf is that Doony (her son) on bass? Whats going on where's Dave" and apparently I am not the only one. But then again, I've been aware she plays everything herself for some time now, guitar/bass/drums the lot. So I guess it is sensible. People who had to get f/t careers outside of music cant really just drop everything for a long tour.

I got to see them in 93 - according to Wiki Bernard was the bass player by that point so I guess I never got to see the OG lineup, despite feeling like I recall otherwise. I got a GREAT photo from the 93 gig though, of Kris in that classic "I am not here" stare.

Hopefully this'll work
https://i.imgur.com/rcfjhfp.jpeg

LOl apparently i'd posted this pic in this thread before (but the links broken so hey)

awesome, thanks

I remember that stare! I think I saw them at the Corner Hotel on that tour.

I just found that I have the 11 page transcript of the Dave Narcizo interview sitting in a folder, if anyone was interested - I don't know where one would upload such a thing without shovelling it into an AI slop bucket.

jeez I'd love to read it, idk just a dropbox link?

I squished it down a bit format-wise - will see what I can do.

No idea how to protect the link from crawlers, but que sera sera I guess. Thanks for the interest! https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/k1t1d5ziioeeb2899s9z5/David-Narcizo-interview-1995.pdf?rlkey=wonc2o113lsx5rwofdszf9ill&st=hudyp3ow&dl=0

thank u!

ditto!
PS yes that photo was taken at the Corner :)

That was a fab interview Matt, thanks for sharing it x

:)

(intro is a bit goofy but hey, it was 30 years ago)

I'd still go to this because she will play Bright Yellow Gun while playing a show as Muses, despite who is in the band; but she wont' do that as 50 Ft. Wave or solo (probably).

― I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Friday, 30 May 2025 15:42 bookmarkflaglink

fwiw I saw her solo a few years ago and she did in fact play Bright Yellow Gun