Greil Marcus And Sleater-Kinney

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So I've been trying for a while now to put my finger on what it is that's been annoying me about Greil Marcus' writing (current writing, not so much his older stuff). And with less urgency I've been trying to articulate what bugs me about the Sleater-Kinney I've heard. And after reading a piece of his and talking to a friend about it I came up with this (the GM piece is linked in my commentary). And so I suppose I'm asking, what does anyone think?

― Tom, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Also worth reading: Josh Blog on the self-congratulatory culture of public radio. That's kind of what GM has slipped into, I think.

― Tom, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

This being the Eddy/Kogan line re GM pro- Nirvana, anti-Poison: Nirvana disrupts things = good, yet Nirvana doesn't disrupt GM. Poison does disrupt GM = bad. It's a really really strong argt logically, but — if disruption is yr bag at ALL — also a hard row to hoe, as a lifechoice. Cue awful rad-punky vision: infinite regression of hostile reversals... Fainthearts step off the moving walkway now.

(Y'know, I have never heard *anything* by Sleater-Kinney. Ain't that a thing?)

― mark s, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Well it's not actually THAT hard a lifechoice cos all you need to do is accept that music which confirms, comforts and consoles can also rock your world, and have the honesty to identify what that music is (Eddy does this, I think - Kogan I've sadly not read enough of). You only get hoist on your petard if you make disruption the locus of value in all music.

― Tom, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

(Reverse-chron order)Sleater-Kinney, Bikini Kill, Free Kitten, Lilliput, etc. Greil Marcus has been sitting in the corner for twenty years, waiting, just BURSTING with the need for somebody to ask him in boorish fashion, "So who do you fancy then", so he can get up and proudly say, "Helene Cisoux!"

― tarden, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

The problem is that SK aren't what Greil makes them out to be, that he doesn't see this "straining to make their voice heard" thing as a self-imposed myth. That SK are in fact very much afraid of their own voice, sort of trapped in an indie-insularity which limits and defines their greatness. Tom's right, Greil looks for the "old weird america" like he's searching for his New Deal homeland. He's a dinosaur, adrift in and scared by the modern world, afraid to live life as it now exists. Which is what he scares with SK, and much of the music he likes -- the sense of rootlessness. The passion of both comes through railing against self-imposed limitations, a refusal to engage with an admittedly ugly society. As such, unlike the worst of indie, SK's faults are not turned into virtues. Rather, they simply blame their faults on society. Witness the moral angsting on #1 Must Have. A terrific song, but the fear of co-option is not from the actual danger of co-option, but the threat that acceptance by a mass market will reveal how little "dangerous" there was to co-opt in the first place.

― Sterling Clover, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Helene Cisioux surely. Sioux Cisioux's rad- fem sister. [Tries to think of hilarious Banshees-Lacan joke: fails, to obvious relief of bystanders]

Disrupts = radical = revolutionary = tiredest old trope in the critic's handbook (as Paul De Man has noted *audible Kif-style sigh from onlookers* the words "critic" and "crisis" are intimately linked...): and GM is BY NO MEANS the worst offender here, as we all know. That is, he reaches for OTHER things to disrupt and test him all the time. But I chuckled when he dissed Destiny's Child's midriffs as "corporate"...

(ps if midriff = yr tummy, then wot riff = yr head? topriff?)

― mark s, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I think my problem with GM (who is disrupting *me* after all so I should ask this kind of stuff) is partly just My Problem - I'm reading for what I expect to find in there and so when he does write about other stuff (in fairness, often assuming an American cultural context I don't possess) I tune it out or don't get it. Also it's worth pointing out that the myth of disruption is like the myth of Santa - you wish it were true and so reading crits like GM who believe it or say they do is its own comfort.

― Tom, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Why are they trapped in indie-insularity, Sterl? I've never quite gotten you on this point.

― Josh, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Maybe critics' game plans become a little too obvious (thus prose gets less interesting) when their search for proxies (e.g. for 'New/Old-Weird America') overwhelms their perception and critical judgement of the here-and-now. Why do people need proxies, or radio stations either?

― tarden, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Not that I think you're a bad listener or whatever, Tom, but of course I also think it would help if you didn't pay too much attention to GM when listening to S-K.

― Josh, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I heard the S-K tracks I have heard well before paying any attention to GM's hagiographies (though of course I'd read similar stuff). But the expectation-experience gap wasn't the only reason I didn't like the music: "No Rock And Roll Fun" (for instance) just sounded like Helen Love with more 'anger' and less 'humour'.

― Tom, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Sleater-Kinney rock hard live though, and surely that's the important thing. They will forever have a place in my heart following their Bowlie Weekender performance.

On record - great guitar lines, impressive drumming, nice squeaky vocals, not so convinced by the lyrics. But only music journos are primarily interested in lyrics.

Helen Love, meanwhile, bears no relation to either humour or good music.

― The Dirty Vicar, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

GM's obsession with Sleater-Kinney goes back to his obsession with Heavens to Betsy, and all of the other RG bands for that matter. I think you're right: he and others are looking for the new Liliput or whatever, but they're looking in the wrong place. I haven't read him much lately, but it seems that he just writes about things that cross his path and doesn't go looking. Which is a problem when you're trying to talk about "what's at stake here".

When I hear S-K, they sound very much like a Northwest US rock band, whereas a big part of Liliput's appeal is their Euro-ness. Those older women "punk" bands listened to funk and reggae, and in the case of Liliput, some French influences as well. Which is why I love them and don't like S-K : they're too provincial, too garage. Hélène Cixous. There, I wrote it.

― Kerry Keane, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Sleater Kinney was -- and is -- never unpredictable, and that's part of what makes them so good (or great). Because it takes a special band to keep a particular sound and stay fresh and LISTENABLE over the long haul (STP, anyone?). That consistency is their calling card, and with it the knowledge that whenever you put on an album of theirs you will know EXACTLY what you're getting dragged into -- and you want to go.

― JM, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Back on Dig Me Out, SK sang "if you want, the sky would open up" and for a brief moment it did. Not because of disruption, but because of their sheer talent and power as a band. They weren't singing about the male gaze, or society, or any of that crap. They were singing about emotions. Hot, boiling over hot, emotions. Tucker's voice was like a tiger on a thin rope leash. Call The Doctor, similarly raw. Now? The power's gone, the thrill's gone, even the bold experimentation of The Hot Rock is gone. All Hands is a complacent record, pretending it wants to shock people out of complacency. If SK keep treating themselves like "a girl band" and obsessing over it, than that's all they'll ever be. And if Greil wants to keep his revelations in top ten lists, than that's the only place he'll ever find them. Youth Decay is, granted, a teriffic song, and probably the best on All Hands. But it feels like a well honed character study to me, not carrying with it a sense of urgency and (ahem, ahem) authenticity.

― Sterling Clover, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

It seems to me the only serious problem with Marcus' championing of Sleater-Kinney is that they're so clearly the only current non-chart band he knows about. He's under the impression that they're unprecedented and unique, when in fact they're musically very much part of a long tradition and an active genre. Every time he rewrites this same basic article (how many times in the last four years?!) without having done any new research since the last version, he just bolsters the case that it isn't that he likes this kind of music so much as he likes having one band he knows it's cool to brandish.

― glenn mcdonald, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

For what it's worth, I think they're a terrific band, just humorless. I guess that's riot grrrls for you, but even Kathleen Hanna can be bothered to crack a joke. Still, The Hot Rock is one of my favorite albums because it's a great songwriter thinking dramatically about other people, as opposed to soft-left shibboleths that nobody really disagrees about in the first place (stand up for yourself! Don't let the patriarchy keep you down! My parents were telling me that when I was 10). And musically, I think it's their one truly great album because the straighter ones depend too much on mere gender tension (well covered above).

Sorry to pick nits, Sterling, but that terrific line you mention was on The Hot Rock. I think your point fits the album anyway.

For what it's worth, Greil still stumbles across other below-radar bands like Low once in a while. But as was also stated above, Greil just has a critical (if not personal) need for there to be a great all-woman band (two lesbians, better yet) raging against the machine, damn the torpedoes, etc.

― Susan, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

"It seems to me the only serious problem with Marcus' championing of Sleater-Kinney is that they're so clearly the only current non-chart band he knows about."

I'm not so sure about that. My frustration with Marcus (a huge influence, by the way) is the exact opposite. He hardly EVER writes about music that I care about, which, for the most part (tho' for no particular reason other than that I just think it's the best stuff out there) happens to be chart/popular music. Almost all Marcus's obsessions in the last, oh, ten years or so have been "non-chart" bands: not just SK, but many Olympia types, DJ Shadow, David Thomas/Pere Ubu, et al. OKay, that's not strictly true -- his main obsession for the last while has actually been Dylan, but does anyone think of him as a "chart" type anymore? Marcus almost NEVER writes about popular music anymore -- other than to slam 'N Sync or Britney (which is always fun to read: he's very good at it). He almost never writes about hip-hop or r&b, and of course, he has every right not to, I just don't think Glenn's argument makes much sense.

― scott woods, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Yeah - if I had to sum up Marcus' current focus (at least the bits he lets us see, heh - what you write about and what you listen to are for a lot of critics different things) I would say it was the rootsier end of alt.country. I'd still much rather read him on it than Allan Jones, say.

― Tom, Thursday, 5 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Wow, I'm actually going to defend GM for a second - "Almost never writes about hip-hop/R&B" - maybe, but his piece on the Geto Boys (alright, it still relied on placing them in the 'old weird America', but it didn't even seem like a stretch) was brilliant.

― tarden, Thursday, 5 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Oh, he writes about a lot of things, but in that dismissive somebody-mailed-this-to-me tone. The Real Life Rock Top 10 format itself seems designed to favor cursory judgments over background research.

― glenn mcdonald, Thursday, 5 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Oh wait, you're right Scott, never mind the chart thing, that wasn't what I meant to say. Substitute "band like this" for "non-chart band". The only thing that puzzles me about Marcus' Sleater-Kinney fascination is that he seems so uninterested in pursuing it to anything other than just SK themselves.

― glenn mcdonald, Thursday, 5 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Who do you suppose Marcus would write about, if he came of age in the 30s and not the 60s?

― tarden, Thursday, 5 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I've always had the impression that solely focusing on SK fit his schtick better. Maybe he listens to all kinds of riot grrl type stuff in his free time - who knows? But he goes for BIG IMPORTANT MYTHIC THINGS, no? Or at least writes about them. All the interesting myths are about individuals, not scenes.

― Josh, Thursday, 5 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I just can't bring myself to agree with you, Sterl. The way you describe SK sounds unpleasantly similar to "their earlier albums were more real / emotional / punk / whatever, man"-style panning of all kinds of other bands' later music. I love Call the Doctor, but I don't think something like that is sustainable over the course of a band-lifetime. If they did sustain it, I would start to suspect it to be only artifice, not as "authentic." To me it's good that they've (supposedly) faltered, that they're a little confused and uncomfortable. It's a sign that all of the forces impinging on the band, that caused them to make the earlier records as they did, are being dealt with in some kind of "right" way, and not just with foolish idealism (e.g. assertion that by making the same record over and over they would be keepin it real).

― Josh, Thursday, 5 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I have no problem with Greil's thing for Sleater-Kinney, but it would be nice if he would spread the love around a little more. These days, he seems to be always writing about the same handful of performers (Dylan, Mekons, Pere Ubu). His Stranded discography was full of trashy doo-wop novelties and such, and I wish he would write about about today's equivalent of that, wherever he can find it.

― Patrick, Thursday, 5 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Josh: THR did offer a way out, and All Hands didn't pursue it. SK have evolved more than most bands, and that's a good thing. So, no, I don't want the same album again, but I want a better album than the last one. & It wasn't just the early stuff that was better. Dig Me Out was the apex, and the albums on both sides were fallings off. Sort of a high modernist approach, I suppose, with the transcendant album and the inevitale retreat. But we'll see. They could go somewhere better from All Hands. Or maybe they only had a few good albums in them, made for a particular period.

As for GM, he does write about other riot grrl, occasionally. Although usually bands linked to SK somehow. Anyone else think that his critical methodology resembles Pagilla's?

― Sterling Clover, Thursday, 5 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

OK, I can finally contribute to this thread. I've *finally* read Tom E and GM.

Greil Marcus: oh dear oh dear oh dear oh dear oh dear oh dear oh dear oh dear oh dear oh dear oh dear oh dear oh dear oh dear oh dear oh dear.

This is the fellow that people have been raving about for years? The chronicler of mythological America? The man who understands where Bob's really at? This is EMBARRASSING. It's slight, it's nugatory, yet what there is of it is TERRIBLE. It's so bad, so cliched, so braindead, it feels like a Brass Eye put-up job. Put it this way: it's as bad as yesterday's Miranda Sawyer review of Madonna in the Daily Mirror. Yeah - that bad.

2. Admittedly I am maybe being affected by seeing S-K live last year, and finding it a terribly average Heavy Rock show. One of the few gigs I've ever walked out of, apart from those many sets at ATP. I suppose I have to accept that all the S-K fans on this thread may know what they're on about. But that still doesn't make GM's article good.

3. Now, Tom E. Basically, he's right. He's right cos GM's piece is terrible and he says so (though not in so many words). He's also right to point out that

>>> but it's never Marcus' world that's getting overturned, it's always some mythical listening you or them.

This is the nicest, best point that Tom E has to make here.

Unlike GM (like / unlike Tom E? I'm not sure), I don't think listening has to be about disruption, overturning etc. If I did, I wouldn't listen to Lloyd Cole.

Other thing: I agree with Tom E about the 'dread' in contemporary chart dance singles. Loads of dread.

The main thing I want to say (again) is, in effect: THAT's *Greil Marcus*?

― the pinefox, Friday, 6 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

as bad as miranda sawyer

i don't really have any time for GM, but that is one stinging retort pinefox, i take my hat off to you.

― gareth, Friday, 6 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

SK = "heavy rock"? Pinefox's world is a very strange place indeed.

― Sterling Clover, Friday, 6 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Erm, not that it perhaps signifies, but that is NOT a typical slice from the GM bakery BY ANY MEANS...

― mark s, Friday, 6 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Mark S: OK - even on the limited amount I've read before, I agree, this is way below par.

Sterling C: to my ears, S-K definitely = heavy rock. Surely I can't be alone in this?

― the pinefox, Friday, 6 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

(faint sound of chirping crickets)

― Sterling Clover, Friday, 6 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

*whistling quietly to myself and looking about with my hands clasped behind me...*

― JM, Friday, 6 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

When suddenly...

KERRRAAANNNGGG!!!!!!

― the pinefox, Friday, 6 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

So I read the GM in the context of the whole mag. And allovasudden it read much better. The whole point of the exercise, in that context, seemed to be the fannish hailing of "best this" or "best that" and as such, as pure hype, the GM piece did a fine job of conveying a particular sort of urgent preaching about the next big thing. Not disagreeing with my comments above, just noting that his style seemed suited to this sort of context.

― Sterling Clover, Saturday, 14 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Oh, and the worst critical snafu was by the editors who put in some comment about The Roots being great b/c they played their own instruments. Chuck D's piece on them was actually fairly bad as a whole, buying into a sort of "rockism" in the context of hip-hop and shortselling some of the currently producing artists who remain more important than the roots. PE were ALL ABOUT SAMPLING and here comes Chuck now peddling some born again "authenticity".

― Sterling Clover, Saturday, 14 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

eleven months pass...

What a nice little thread.

― Josh, Sunday, 23 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

One notable thing about GM's S-K obsession is that, at least so far, he hasn't found a way to turn it into one of his usual musical- geohistorical epics (the cultural afterlife of Elvis, the arcane origins of punk, the old weird America). You'd think that, since S- K's origins generally tie into stuff Marcus loves to write about (female post-punk of the 70s and 80s), this would be fairly easy for him to write. I was surprised to see that his last book (Double Trouble) barely mentioned them.

― Justyn Dillingham, Sunday, 23 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I've come around to rilly getting into All Hands...

― Sterling Clover, Monday, 24 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I've come around to feeling vindicated somehow, haha

― Josh, Monday, 24 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Jerk.

― Sterling Clover, Monday, 24 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

thankyou, thankyou verymuch

― Josh, Monday, 24 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Actually, I have too. Although mostly for ballad of a Ladyman with the growling "Frrrrrrrrreak that I am."

― JM, Thursday, 27 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

two months pass...

Oh no! Greil doesn't like the new SK album!! OH NO!!! (See his latest Salon column)

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Tuesday, 10 September 2002 01:29 (twenty-two years ago)

*Double Trouble* has some lovely, heartbreaking essays about Elvis. Thanks to Josh for tipping me off to it.

― Mary (Mary), Tuesday, 10 September 2002 03:20 (twenty-two years ago)

thank jess for stealing it

I don't like the new sk album yet so I guess I have some work to do to distance myself from marcus then

― Josh (Josh), Tuesday, 10 September 2002 04:17 (twenty-two years ago)

don't get me wrong, i would have stolen the ian penman book if the store had it...

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 10 September 2002 04:42 (twenty-two years ago)

"Greil still stumbles across other below-radar bands like Low"

...I think he's got a kid who lives in Mpls who tips him off (Low are from Minnesota). He got all hot over local co-fronted-by-a-girl punks the Selby Tigers a few months ago, too. He said something like "here in St. Paul, MN, land of Garrison Keillor, there's an echo of London 1977 etc etc etc"

― g.cannon (gcannon), Tuesday, 10 September 2002 13:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, punk rock in the Twin cities...far out. Where was this guy in 1984? (Answer 1: Under Ingrid Sischy's desk. Answer 2: Berkeley)

― James Blount, Tuesday, 10 September 2002 13:54 (twenty-two years ago)

like "here in St. Paul, MN, land of Garrison Keillor, there's an echo of London 1977 etc etc etc"

That is the lamest thing I have read in a long time. And considering the quality of pop journalism these days, that's saying something.

― Nicole (Nicole), Tuesday, 10 September 2002 13:57 (twenty-two years ago)

well, I'm paraphrasing from memory, but that was pretty much the gist. I don't think he mentioned Keillor by name; he's better than that.

― g.cannon (gcannon), Tuesday, 10 September 2002 14:08 (twenty-two years ago)

he mentioned keillor by age height and weight only

― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 10 September 2002 14:11 (twenty-two years ago)

mark s: ouch.

reread the bit. It sets up a placid small-city backdrop that the band is hidden under & upsets; Selby Tigers:St Paul :: Buzzcocks:Manchester :: Bikini Kill:Olympia. His description of the "seen" St Paul involves (poss. firsthand sights of) houses, trees, and changing seasons, which isn't nescly Keillory per se, but I can only imagine he was tooling around in the St Paul where Keillor actually owns a house, not the parts where Selby Tigers live and work.

― g.cannon (gcannon), Tuesday, 10 September 2002 19:49 (twenty-two years ago)

I live a block or two south of selby! not sure where they live east-west though.

― Josh (Josh), Tuesday, 10 September 2002 21:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Not far from Macalester, as I recall. They've broken up, though. Cecily Marcus has gone to school here, but Greil knows about Minnesota bands because he loves Melissa Maerz and reads City Pages, as should you all.

― Pete Scholtes, Wednesday, 11 September 2002 21:55 (twenty-two years ago)

as an aside, is Melissa related to Jennifer (over at The Stranger and elsewhere)?

― Don Weiner, Thursday, 12 September 2002 02:32 (twenty-two years ago)

You win a free drink next time you're in Minneapolis.

― Pete Scholtes, Friday, 13 September 2002 02:27 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm going to be there in April. Just let me know where you run your tab, Pete. Lyle's? Anywhere but the CC.

FWIW, I think we should lay off Greil just a little bit. It's at least moderately inspiring to find guys his age who still give a shit about the underground, even if it at times it seems a little bit forced.

― Don Weiner, Friday, 13 September 2002 17:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, he was a biggie for me when I was figuring my shit out as a teenager. Finding Lipstick Traces at that age was terribly important.

But I don't know if it's really true. His thesis there (and everywhere) is that all cool is similar. Anything cool can be used to comment on any other cool thing, and he's got a handle on the whole big cool picture.

But, last year in one of his Top Tens he mentioned "Letter From an Occupant" being the only thing that could make him feel better about the world in the wake of 9/11. I found that he was correct, so for that, bless him.

(fuck I hope he self-googles. Up yours Greil we love you can you get me a job?!)

― g.cannon (gcannon), Friday, 13 September 2002 18:56 (twenty-two years ago)

i've still never heard anything by sleater-kinney

― mark s (mark s), Saturday, 14 September 2002 11:56 (twenty-two years ago)

His advice regarding "Letter from an Occupant" was particularly dead-on. I know a lot of people who don't think he really understands Elvis, Dock Boggs, or much of anything really (postpunk girl groups maybe), but I like the guy, even when he's full of shit. I don't value his insights as much as Christgau or his writing as much as the Noise Boys (and Tosches' Country and Hellfire trump Marcus' forays into Americana - he is an American Studies prof right? - with such ease that it ain't even funny), but I read him, which is about the highest compliment you can pay a writer. He isn't ashamed to be an intellectual and he isn't ashamed to like rock n roll and how many people can you both of those statements about?

― James Blount (James Blount), Sunday, 15 September 2002 08:48 (twenty-two years ago)

I read Tosches' "Country" (the only piece of music-journalism-as-book that I have read) and it bored me half-to-sleep. I've never read anything since.

― david h (david h), Sunday, 15 September 2002 09:05 (twenty-two years ago)

mark s would you like a tape?

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Sunday, 15 September 2002 09:05 (twenty-two years ago)

haha, montgolfier brothers m'll s u

― gareth (gareth), Sunday, 15 September 2002 12:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah I hadn't thought of that... the offer stands, Mark.

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Sunday, 15 September 2002 13:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Go on

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Sunday, 15 September 2002 13:36 (twenty-two years ago)

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