Why do white people criticize one another for being white?

I'm reminded of the Larry Sanders episode where Jon Stewart is the guest host for the show and he arranges for the Wu-Tang Clan to appear. Hank Kingsley (the show's Ed McMahaon -- essentially a dorky Dr. Phil, if you haven't seen it) wants to be down with the Wu-Tang, so he arranges for his assistant to get him Wu-Tang Forever. He approahces the RZA and tells him, "I love your work. Especially 'Shame on the Nigga.'" The RZA acts offended, and Hank tries to fix the situation by awkwardly raising the roof. Jon Stewart steps in and says, "I'd like to apologize on the behalf of my entire race."

Interestingly, you never see this with regard to country music or heavy metal music - "dude, that music is too white!"

and like two more things in the same vein.

In nearly every instance "whiteboy" seemed like a useful term since what it rilly means is "awkward gangly indie-kid" and such people really do exist -- and in no case was "white-boy" enough to dis something but only used to *describe* it (since like half the time the object in question was praised).

Nabisco I therefore conclude that you've successfully manufactured a very stupid strawman.

i do love that the most common criticism of ilm is how "white" it is by...wait for it...white guys. the ironing is delicious. (not saying "dead disnee" is necessarily white, but...)
-- jess (dubplatestyl...), September 26th, 2002.
i mean, no offence, but just because this place is overrun with corny indie motherfuckers these days doesn't mean that there aren't/weren't people who were knowledgable about hip-hop here, many of them white as fuck
-- jess (dubplatestyl...), March 4th, 2003.
i stand by problem is you're just sad and bloated/like tales from hiphopographic oceans.
(guilty...of being...white...)
-- jess (dubplatestyl...), March 28th, 2002.
well, if you're white as fuck maybe
-- jess (dubplatestyl...), February 7th, 2003.
haha yeah, too many fat, white brits before for my taste!!
-- jess (dubplatestyl...), September 23rd, 2002.
i was at a wu tang show once and they didn't show up for almost 2 hours! let me tell you, i've never seen such indignant white people in my life.
-- jess (dubplatestyl...), May 29th, 2002.
i have terminal white-boy guilt re. house derived from moodyman and all that afro-house! (er...)
-- jess (dubplatestyl...), October 1st, 2002.

You don't? Really?

actually no, it's more to do with class obsessed, uh 'over-graciousness' IYW.

CLARITY

(s)elf-hatred = legolas' railslide (25 stairs dawg!)

My only issue with it is that, as a classification-word that is race/ethnic specific, it reinforces certain stereotypes that in many cases aren't true (white people's supposed lack of rhythm, fr'instance), and one thing I'm not down with is any attempted limiting of what people supposedly should and shouldn't be able to do because of the amounts of melanin in the skin cells, whether it's people saying white people shouldn't rap or black people shouldn't sing oprah. <- (I'm going to leave this typo in 'cause it is just too cool.)

Granted, it seems that in Jamaica that I get guff for being "so white" all the time. E.g. this Rasta dude who's known as Manifest told me "It looks like you'd rather call me by my Christian name--so feel free to call me Christopher." He also laughs and has commented about my at my oh-so white was of waving goodbye as opposed to punching fists. When you're summoned by "hey white girl" or "hey whitey" at least once a day or so, you sorta start to get used to the fact that everything you do will be catagorized as "white."

Class, however, is THE issue here.

i didn't say cleveland i said ohio. cleveland isn't ohio. cleveland is cleveland. almost every state has one measly city where musicians can almost eke out a painful hand to mouth existence playing music. unless its some wheat field like iowa or south dakota. all things being equal though, if i were a jazz musician i'd much rather be in copenhagen then cleveland. they get genius music in copenhagen. i'd actually rather be at nina hagen's house. i hear she makes a mean apple fritter. which i will except in lieu of pie.

Cleveland is pretty much Ohio. Is it that much worse in Toledo?

my white as can be jazz trumpet-playing/music professor uncle lives in Ohio...

i'll bet he's a big stan kenton fan. does he get mad if you tell him that kenton had no swing? they all get mad when you say that.

i hear she makes a mean apple fritter.

As if you would except anything less from a proper white person.

hey that cleveland jazzfest looks like it was a lot of fun by the way...

http://www.allaboutjazz.com/media/medium/6/3/7/968c96bc8deefe54148bc497d5d80.jpg

http://www.allaboutjazz.com/media/medium/a/6/b/3d3e68f246003516c06635bbed8ed.jpg

http://www.allaboutjazz.com/media/medium/3/9/5/ca68f4c6af862fe7033c3fd8345dc.jpg

http://www.allaboutjazz.com/media/medium/7/e/9/cd4360cf1ca18ecb53993796ea1a4.jpg

Liz Phair isn't from Cleveland though.

rest in peace, jazz temple. and thanks for trying, mr. willis.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8f/Winston_%26_Dizzie.jpg/457px-Winston_%26_Dizzie.jpg

As the club’s notoriety grew throughout the County and State, it came to be known by many world famous jazz musicians as “The Jazz Mecca.” But the interracial dating and “race-mixing” triggered widespread resentment in the racially polarized community. Soon the attempted intimidation by law enforcement began. Some nights saw as many Cleveland police officers in attendance as regular customers. These visits were routinely followed by unscheduled and unannounced inspections and citations. Thereafter, months of ominous threats of violence and anonymous phone calls during and after business hours foretold of the coming end. Several famous acts appearing at the club refused to be intimidated initially, insisting on performing. Finally, the frequency and intensity of the threats were followed by a tremendous after-hours explosion that demolished the Jazz Temple and ended its reign as the jazz mecca.

i lost it so hard at that first cleveland jazzfest fotoe. scott totally otm of course.

jazz dudes goin in

i lost it so hard at that first cleveland jazzfest fotoe. scott totally otm of course.

― Impetuous hybrid (Matt P), Wednesday, June 13, 2012 9:42 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

thats joey defrancesco i believe who is dope btw

he's fine if you need a lot of organ in your life. i don't need that much. my dad would drag me to see him and his dad when i was a kid. both him and his dad got so big. like, physically.

man they loved poppa john in philly. that's an organ-y kinda town. john and joey and shirley scott all making a racket.

people i liked in philly were usually as old as the hills like mickey roker. byard lancaster. byard getting jacked up in front of WaWa stores like a common criminal for playing his horn. i liked john swana. and of course rufus harley. and the sun ra gang. and my pal elliot levin. he was crazy. uri caine. pat martino. jimmy bruno. eddie green. but the organ crowd, yeah, small doses for me.

in southern Ohio, Cincinnati was a decent jazz town when I was teen in the 70s. I couldn't get into the clubs on Reading Road but there was an all- jazz radio station, WNOP-AM. "The Jazz Ark" broadcasting from a barge on the Ohio River. Listened to this in between rock stations when we were cruising. Late nights on classical WCUC was "The Electric Stop Sign" with host Oscar Treadwell, a beatnick/scholar who Charlie Parker wrote a song about. "OT"

the local organ-jazz grinder was a dude named Dee Felice, he played everywhere even bowling alleys. also recorded with James Brown on King Records.

Man great work Scott ferreting out the fact that Cleveland did bad things to black people long after all other US cities, including jazz havens like NYC, St. Louis, Chicago and New Orleans had long put any race problems behind them. That's PhD level work, son, keep it up and I can promise you at least one (1) Pulitzer Prize.

I mean I know Cleveland hasn't quite achieved the easygoing racial awesomeness of tiny cities in MA with less than 2% black population, but we're working on it.

Fun Fact: Only four artists performed at the 2012 Tri-C Jazzfest, and they were all white, as were all the attendees, who were served mayo sandwiches on Wonder Bread as refreshment.

when i was a kid i lived on the MN/Iowa border and we actually got Iowa public TV instead of MN public TV, but man, Bix Biederbecke is revered on Iowa Public Television

bummed that i haven't bookmarked this thread, as i'd love to hit "remove" right about now

i know that feeling

"but man, Bix Biederbecke is revered on Iowa Public Television"

as well he should be! bix is from davenport. they got good ice cream there.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_HxEuUZJ1PGo/TI0UKiDW0VI/AAAAAAAAAFE/bsfcdtpGjuY/s1600/Iowa+Game+Whitey%27s+Ice+Cream+with+Grace.jpg

y'know I should ask my uncle about Stan Kenton, that's never come up... he teaches the Jazz Ensemble at Miami University, dunno how white that is

whitey 's yogurten

man they loved poppa john in philly. that's an organ-y kinda town. john and joey and shirley scott all making a racket.

― scott seward, Wednesday, June 13, 2012 11:21 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I vaguely remember leaving a bar I was playing a show at (maybe Tritone?) to go to a bar down the street where some old-as-moses dudes were playing organ trio jazz. They had some old-guy stiffness to their playing but were pretty greasy and groovy anyway.

And I seem to remember people telling me that it was some kind of known local spot for organ jazz, although possibly past its prime.

bob & barbara's. owned by the guy who started tritone. and before that he had jj's grotto. good jazz at jj's when i lived there. jimmy bruno played there a lot. good pizza. i think he died though? jack. the owner.

nate wiley died too. he was the draw at B&B. its where college kids go to drink pabst.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sFSdppO6Ec&feature=related

Yeah, that's the place, in fact I think it was almost definitely nate wiley that I saw. RIP.

God, why are the people in that video so white! I hate them!

that's not nate in the video. he took over for nate after nate died. i can't remember his name. fun group of old-timers! hard to hear them in there though.

its a fun place for kids to drink. the music is just kinda olde tyme ambience.

my dad played this one cd of jimmy bruno all the time when i was a kid

it was good iirc!

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/68761170/The+Jimmy+Bruno+Trio+50614273.jpg

that's the kind of white ppl i can support

otm

i took my dad to see jimmy once. he liked him. my dad was nuts for jazz guitar. jazz anything, but he loved guitar players. i didn't always appreciate it as much when i was a kid. he would drag me along to a tal farlow or barney kessel gig and i didn't always get it. the finesse. the style. horns and drums i got. in a way, horn players and drummers were more like rockers to me than the guitarists. and i was a rockhead.

ha, I bought that Jimmy Bruno CD when I was first trying to learn jazz, and I can still remember the first tune. Weirdly, it took me years of practicing and studying jazz guitar formally to realize that I just don't like jazz guitar that much. It was like there was this sound I heard in my head and that I wanted to play, but I couldn't play it, and then one day I realized that it was because that sound wasn't guitar.

Oh yeah and it's on Concord. Concord is all about jazz guitar. I had the Concord Collection of Jazz Guitar on CD, but the only tunes I really liked were a funky Kenny Burrell tune called La Petit Mambo and a sick version of Seven Come Eleven by Joe Pass and Herb Ellis. Those were the weird days when a CD player was still kind of novel and I didn't have enough money to have a ton of CD's so I just had kind of a random handful of albums. I don't exactly miss it, but there was this weird thing where you'd learn an album backwards and forwards that you didn't even like that much, just because it was all you had to listen to.

was just listening to the red norvo trio stuff with mingus and tal farlow the other day. holy shit that stuff is nuts. tal is amazing on those tracks. and was really young. i mean, not NUTS nuts. i mean what they did in three minutes was amazing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwIdBaUm4kA

I used to be really self-hating white about jazz actually. I think it was probably because the arts high school I went to was like 90% black. So I was really self-conscious about "not playing white" until one day I came up with a theory (that I still think might be true) that a lot of white jazz players who suck actually suck precisely because they try to play "black," i.e. a really reductionist and pretty racist idea of what jazz is, instead of doing what the best black AND white jazz musicians do, which is just hone the shit out of your musicianship, focus really hard on your accents and the nuances of your phrasing, etc.

yeah, work your ass off. that's the best way to go about anything. keep your head down and do your thing.

anyway, Jim Hall:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0mGuRM8tBw&feature=related

i really like jim hall. but sometimes all you really need is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOm17yw__6U

i like what tal and barney did in the 50's. with groups. i don't listen to solo jazz guitar much at all. if i listen to a guitar album it would be wes or kenny burrell or some funky 70's shit.

I'm trying to find you a clip of this Kenny Burrell tune called Three Thousand Miles Back Home -- sample bait from the 70s that was also a random thing I had early on. Record is called Stormy Monday Blues iirc.

Meanwhile, I don't like solo jazz guitar either, but
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHE6FSeWuLQ

Which led me to this, wow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZDSLQsOmNY&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yt61GcUl3J0

nice recovery

and my pal elliot levin.

There was a time when I used to see him playing at practically every gig I went to.