Mahavishnu Orchestra vs. Return to Forever

sheesh. mahavishnu - no contest. but is this were really celebrity deathmatch, the love cry want group would come out of the wings and kill them both!

Can just abt tolerate Chick Corea's contribs to the early electric Miles alb, but outside of that he's the pits - syrupy, bombastic, tinkling tosser. So it's gotta be Mahavishnu Orchestra for me, even though anything past the first couple of M.O. albs is well, well dodgy. John M obv. bit of a po-faced muso - Meltzer's interview with him in the 'Whore' collection v. v. funny - but do really like some of his playing (the first Lifetime alb in particular.)

Weather Report, anybody?

i don't even like him much with miles - "bitches brew" not half as good as (lots others) 'cause TOO MUCH FUCKIN PIANOS.

plus being called "chick", plus being a SCIENTOLOGIST (= a dumm ass or a creep or both). Mahavishnu J. on the other hand IMPROVED numerous Miles albums.

Shows my bias as a keyboardist, but one thing I love about "In a Silent Way" and "Bitches Brew" is the constant interplay between the Fender Rhodes. It really adds "content" to the music for me; whereas the more groove-laden, keyboard-less (or keyboard downplayed) electric albums, while still good, don't hold as much interest to me.

Return to Forever (the band with diMeola anyway) was chopsy in a sometimes comical way, but Mahavishnu did it in a blow-your-head-off way. The Inner-Mounting Flame is still an intense album...it's got to be MO.

Joe - yeah right I *forgot* (just shoot me) "In a Silent Way" & yeah that's got the same 3 piano guys & is THE GREATEST. so OK. Let him live.

Mahavishnu, easily. The Between Nothingness and Eternity live album is probably the best live fusion album ever made without Miles Davis on it. Their studio stuff isn't as engaging, but is still better than any of the Return to Forever I've heard.

Joe: amen. Just for starters, "Pharoah's Dance" is a thing of incredible delicacy a and loveliness because of that interplay.

Weather Report? Over on the Low list I've had to put up with so much nonsense from one bilious Australian for mentioning them as among my favorites that I'm practically trained to prepare for an attack whenever I hear their name! Anyway, they turned into crap at the end, but I love the better parts of the first 7-8 albums or so. Mysterious Traveller, especially, is probably one of the greatest albums ever made. Their first S/T is great, too (the second one is crap), and the live side of I Sing the Body Electric is magnificent.

I also think some later-period Mahavishnu kicks total ass, particularly most of Visions of the Emerald Beyond. "On the Way Home to Earth" just blows my mind. "Cosmic Jam/If I Could See/Be Happy" has got to be the weirdest medley overall I've ever heard. The first two tracks off Inner Worlds also rawk.

Ah, yes, Mysterious Traveller. Great album (why don't they remaster that one, fer cryin' out loud!)...

I'm also siding with MO, they certainly seem to have aged a bit better than RtF. Chick Corea comes across as quite being sickly in comparison. I'm guessing that Massive Attack would have also voted that way due to their rampant sampling of MO (to the benefit of both parties).

Phil you've come to the right place! Weather Report = ace, esp. Mysterious Traveller. But have special weakness for supposedely crap Report-gone-disco-album, Mr.Gone.

Still have to check out Mahavishnu though.

We are talking about two very differnt groups here, but if I had to go with one it would be the mahavishnu, in reality im a much bigger return to forever fan; I mean I own everything they ever offically recorded, but what thlack because of corney and somewaht repeatative keyboard licks, the mahavishnu have intense ridiculous indian influanced fast interweaved melodies to compeat with. The mahavishnu definatly have their good albums and their bad ones but it takes a true student to know the difernce. as for contributions to early miles davis fusion groups; which I also own all of, Mclaughlin takes the hat with no question, its simply historical fact even chick would agree, but I must say the best of the airto flora return to forever and the best of the al di miola return to forever is some of the most funky enjoyable fusion ever recorded. anyone disagree?

Is anyone going to say RtF? No? Me either. MO by a landslide, based on the first two albums alone.

mahavishnu by a mile.... and check jm out on big fun, the re-release just came out. he is the best ever

mahavishnu every time

I love chick's first rock album with Bill Connors on blazing guitar- didn't like it later with Al Dimeola-he was predictable. The writing later after Hymn of the Seventh Galaxy sometimes sounded like emerson, lake and palmer with Al Dimeola. Loved the hell out of McLaughlin's Inner Mounting Flame, it kicks butt. True rock/jazz fusion with an emphasis on rock. I saw those bands live in the 70's and they were incredible, jazz loses intensity on vinyl(or CD's).Weather Report's I Sing the Body Electric is my favorite.

Um Mahavishnu definitely. Plus Stanley Clarke (or was it Jordan? I get the the bass player and that annoying fingerhammering guitarist mixed up) was in RTF and he's been responsible for a whole lot of bad manufactured pop and soundtrack stuff.

Can someone recommend albums that sound exactly the same
as RTF's _Romantic Warrior_ ? I like the fact that it's
totally complex and bizarre but still accessible, almost
cheerful. Does Mahavishnu sound anything liket this, or
are they darker?

Romantic Warrior has always reminded me of a slick, juiced up version of Magma, especially during the singing. Compare to, say, Kohntarkosz, and then maybe to Attahk.

"Miami Vice or Battlefield Earth?"

This is pretty funny.

As for Chick and the scientology thing, is it that much weirder than McGlothlin getting so into the guru thing he goes from calling his band Mahavishu to HIS NAME is Mahahvishnu?

It seems to me that a major proportion of the popular jazz cats that came out of the late 60s/early 70s, perhaps either under the influence or getting free from the influence of drugs, and heading straight long into some deep philosophical/religious/cultural studies in their music.

Mind you this kind of exploration isn't necessarily bad, McGlothlin's first Shakti record is wicked.

Return to Forever made some pretty wild music, impressive if nothing as monsterchopsuey, but they never made any albums as good as the first two Mahavishnu records. McGlothlin could write/arrange much more memorable tunes, like "Birds of Fire".

this album OWNS:

There are really two different RTF's. The first edition was a light Brazilian jazz-fusion group. The second was more of a hard rock-fusion group. From what I've heard I prefer the first edition. While this is a case of comparing apples and oranges, I would say that Light as a Feather holds its own against Inner Mounting Flame.

And, of course, there's Chick Corea's non-Return to Forever album, called, um, Return To Forever.

I really like that one a lot...

Mahavishnu. Duh. :-)

kind of surprised at all the chick hate here (although ILM sometimes seems uncomfortable w/ jazz in general?). while he was responsible for his fair share of noodly, effete crap in the 70s-80s, he was a brilliant keyboardist and i'd take him any day over mclaughlin as a composer (captain marvel, matrix, spain, steps).

La Fiesta!

He's definitely written many more tunes that have caught on, but I trust McLaughlin's aesthetic a lot more (i.e., he's never, ever sunk to the cheesy lows of Chick Corea).

Possibly his tunes are a bit more tailored to himself and his bands (esp. Mahavishnu & Shakti), while Chick's are more closely tied to the jazz tradition?

Chick was definitely some kind of genius -- LAAF is fun, his work with Miles is outstanding (and underrated, really), and his combination of technique, lyricism ranks him up there with Keith Jarrett and Herbie Hancock.

BUT--and, as Pee Wee Herman might say, this is a "big but"--when it comes to the Chick Corea Elektric Band, there are hardly words to describe how profoundly bad they were. On every level--not least of which is aesthetic--the stuff is just utterly indefensible. And the worst part is that, combined some of the latter RTF, it went a long way toward not just giving fusion a bad name but undermining all the fascinating things about the interplay between pop, rock and jazz sensibilities. Seriously, what a fucking shame.

Yep, they were the definition of chops without soul. The Akoustic Band wasn't much better, I heard one of those records at a young age and it put me off jazz for a few years afterwards.

yes, jordan, i think that chick's tunes are more "in the jazz tradition" in that they're more like standards - just a chart and a melody. whereas mahavishnu were more, well, rock; it sounds like maybe their songs were born more out of jamming than john sitting down and just writing a tune. how this relates to why i like the aforementioned chick tunes better i couldn't tell you off the top of my head now.

anyways, search the hell out of chick's "now he sings now he sobs." i find him a more lyrical soloist than mclaughlin, who just kind of explodes all over the place (not in the sense of chops-over-soul necessarily). again, this could be tied to chick's less explicitly 'rock' stance. (ok, so am i now a 'jazzist'??) but mostly i just love the tyner/corea/hancock style of outsideish modalism which i dont hear as much in mclaughlin

I do love that record. Roy Haynes plays some things that are just stupid (as in brilliant).

I think we're saying the same thing, McLaughlin's tunes are more tied to the bands he's playing with while Chick's are more about him as a composer.

Chick: search the Gary Burton/Chick/Dave Holland/Pat Metheny/Roy Haynes record 'Like Minds', it's one of my favorites. Great version of Windows. Also, the first album he did with his new sextet 'Change' is great, it's more relaxed that some of his acoustic stuff and he plays some great marimba.

Both bands are great and awesome, but RTF has much better compositions. Just think tunes like "No Mystery", "Captain Senor Mouse" or "Dayride". Also, RTF records have better bass playing. It is really stupid to argue about this kind of issues but this happens to be the truth.

RTF also started as something really different, as the first band with Joe Farrell, Airto Moreira and Flora Putrim is closer to a latin based jazz group than electric fusion. Those two albums are quite nice.

Chick has a few other records that I like like including Circle: Paris Concert, My Spanish Heart, Crystal Silence and Now He Sings, Now He Sobs.

The records under the name Mahavishnu after the original band are not nearly the same, especially the album Inner Worlds, which I think is pretty bad. Apolcalypse is totally over the top, with the orchestra arrangements, but it pretty much works. The self-titled 80s version of Mahavishnu record was one of the first jazz records I ever heard, so I probably like it better than most people. Adventures in Radioland also has its moments, but both of those 80s Mahavishnu records sound very much of their time.

Extrapolitation and My Goals Beyond are both good listens for early McLaughlin albums. I also really like the first Lifetime record.