Melissa Ethridge: Who's buyin' this Stuff?

Not me.

Lesbians.

rock lesbians rock - better than ani wahtserface & indigo chiclets

shrill f#@king lesbians. The problem with lesbians is, they're lazy.

My sister. I've tried to tell her that Ovation guitars are crap but she won't listen.

Probably her label and fans thriving on such silly drama. As obnoxious as these stunts are, she has been pretty prolific in the past month. Not many can live their lives out in public and plug the discourse around it as she has.

In defence: the several excellent lesbians of my acquaintance — = not the entire planets- worth, admittedly — wd stick needles in their eyes rather than purchase m.etheridge product, crotch-shot notwithstanding. Some among them — the least presentable, tho perhaps as a result the most hilarious — wd possibly stick needles in the eyes of anyone they knew to be purchasing said product, sisterhood notwithstanding. Others argue: that ME is most popular among nervous college girls who kinda WISH they were lesbians, but actually aren't, but nevetheless want to make some kind of effort for the Cause. Which is sorta cool, in a sorta way lame way.

I think I probably have stuff by her. Didn't buy it, though — and have never listened to it, I don't think.

I once saw a TV programme — to which my beloved punk dyke buddy L contributed, now I come to think of it [category: needles in the eyes of others] which declared that CLIFF RICHARD c.1960 was a mainstay Sapphic icon (cuz looked like Elvis as a chick who did chix0r). If true: kewl. If made up: better.

None of my lezzie friends have any clue who Cliff Richard is. This wd be a good thread: male lesbian icons, cause I can't think of any. Has there been a Heart thread? My lesbian friends choose Heart over Mel E every time. Ooohhh....... BaraCUda!

No surprise: the tone of the prog-strand was Ripley's Believe It or Not/Past = A Diff Country: its burden was that this long-ago mass Sapph pash on Lord Clifford of Richard had lasted c.six months in 1960 in the UK only. His *moment*...

I always thought Melissa's audience was composed of liberal, open-minded classic rock fans--they could get the bombast and heartland sentiment of Mellencamp/Seger but feel very right on cause it's coming from a lesbian, making the "effort for the cause" thing Mark mentioned above. Good for her/them, I guess. Can't see these people actually buying the book, though, that's a stretch.

Most of my lesbian friends are huge Runaways fans...

ME isn't a lesbian icon, I think. But KD Lang, on the other hand.... Zowie!

Come on, man, that's like saying Ellen Degeneres isn't a lesbian icon. Most of my lesbian friends are big ME fans, but that's because I go to a really conservative school, so even the dykes are kind of preppy. If they were punks, I'm sure they'd like Bikini Kill instead. Oh, and the Runaways are so rockin. Cherry Bomb!

I think ME & EdG are just famoous dykes, not important or iconic - maybe Marlene Dietrich (sp?), Gertrude Stein, Kathleen Hannah are more "iconic" but we probably should question a)what is an icon, and b) do ew still need them?

When i was at the pride BBQ this year there were Fleece Vested Dykes who were handing out forms to enter MEs fan club. I decided against it although your little sceret is a grate video

. BTW Is singersongwriter stuff the lesbian equivlant of Disco for gay men. ( Look: Phranc, Janis Ian, kd lang, ME, Ani Difranco, Indigo Girls)

Oh dear. Just for boring dykes, I think (kd lang excepted, coz she rules). They can't even camp it up like the gay male singer songwriters (elton, stephin, soforth).

I saw a dykecore band over the weekend. tatoooed shaven headed ladies scream atonally while their drummer attempts to destroy the area. Intersting. Also interesting to note all the lesbain couples in the audince. Some butch on bucth, some lisptick lesbian on butch, etc.. I had some budweiser and tricked one o f my party to hit on the waitress, and she did with poor results. Nervous laughter ensued.

Anthony: to answer your excellent question: yes. Why? I don't know. I like the singer-songwriter genre, but not really any of the dyke-favored ones, but as a gay man I can't stand the disco/house music hegemony that has ruled gay male culture for as long as I can remember. Actually, I can't stand gay "culture" at all, but that's another story...

Camp: Classic or Dud? Seriously.

Maybe 'camp' is not the right word - what I have in mind is actually tranvestism, and a whole cluster of stuff like camp, kitsch, Terence Stamp in frocks, whatever. I hope no-one thinks I'm trying to articulate a 'dodgy' attitude here - I ain't. Let me try to explain.

I think that camp (I'll call it that for the time being) has at times been a vital and interesting force in pop (+ pop culture etc), but has gradually become (perhaps thanks to Selective Acceptance of Pink Pound blah blah) boring and - just, um, not very good. I suppose I mean that it has lost its edge ('lost its edge'? Use Other Words!) and become as mainstream and self-confirming as male strippers (hey, ain't it grate - gurlz night out - ooh, I do fancy that he's going to do the Full Monty, Brenda!...).

In a way what I'm saying is something which sounds very silly, namely: I THINK CAMP IS IN BAD TASTE. Camp is meant to be in bad taste, that's the point of it - I know. But I think I am saying that the context in which that particular 'bad taste' phenomenon was effective (politically) or interesting (aesthetically) has disappeared or been transformed, and that we're left with... bad taste.

I am NOT criticizing anyone for being camp, in any way, in their own lives. AND I appreciate that in myriad different cultural-political situations, myriad styles or strategies may be needed. Stuff that seems old hat in the capital may still be risky in the backwoods, etc. (OH NO!! I'VE INADVERTANTLY STARTED ANOTHER METROPOLIS VS COUNTRYSIDE DEBATE!! I DIDN'T MEAN IT, HONEST!!)

No - I am thinking more of the use of cross-dressing, or attitudes that circle around it, as a pop gimmick. In fact what I am *really* thinking of is: Stephin Merritt (cos mentioned above). When does his 'taste' (which in some ways is idiosyncratically impeccable, or vice versa) let him down? When he goes camp - when he gets drag queens to sing, etc. He seems to lose it (perspective), fall back into a certain idea of 'gay culture' on which his other (doubtless very Gay, or Queer, or whatever) work does not rely.

'Camp': use other words, please, pinefox. I know there's a word here I am missing, which would better express the cultural seam that I'm suggesting is played out.

Is 'camp' always in bad taste? I get a different impression from reading about Denton Welch's childhood and adolescence in In Youth Is Pleasure and Maiden Voyage. The way he describes how as a child he once put on lipstick in his hotel room and how when he was older he snuck out in a dress and heels sounds exhilarating. I'm sure he looked quite attractive.

But maybe this is not what the Pinefox means by 'camp' because I don't think Denton Welch did those things to make a statement.

Camp and transvestism are not the same thing. A person or thing can be campy and have nothing to do with cross-dressing or homosexuality.

But crossing gender boundries seems to be an intergal part of High Camp.It is slightly differnt then being a transvisete because it has no ellemnt of Fetish. Not only drag but the butch icon (Joan CRawford, Bette Davis ) for example .

The by-now extremely BORING icon!! (cf rant elsewhere...) Use! Other! Icons! Please!

Brian or Josh ?

Camp is pretty much the dead, hyperstylized horse that pop-culture has been beating for the past 3 decades. In fact, as soon as Sontag pegged the very idea of camp, it began its slow death by commercialization. In fact, there's more camp on TV than in a cabaret these days - perhaps due to the fact that it's strengths were primarily in the visual, now editing and graphics become more camp than the actors trapped in the frame.

I am not entirely sure what's replacing it except for outbursts of irony, kitsch (bad taste), perversity...

There was a similar shortlived thread under 'Gay/Lesbian Icons' case yr interested...