Second Tier Garage Rock - The St Johnny's of Tomorrow?

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Remember when Nirvana "broke" and David Geffen got suckered by Thurston into signing Cell, St Johnny, etc? A lot of shit got thrown at the wall and very little stuck.

Are the Datsuns, Witnesses, etc etc the cut out bin staples of tomorrow? Explain why or why not.

I think it's inevitable. I consider myself a very discerning listener - I can tell the difference between every Jandek record and can identify different parts of Elaine Radigue tracks. I can sing you everything 68 Comeback and the Gibson Bros ever recorded. But as a critic, I find myself having a difficult time reviewing this 'garage revival' shit recently because, for the life of me, I cannot tell most of these bands apart. Perspectives?

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Wednesday, 2 April 2003 00:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh GOD the memories. Roger you bastard, making me think of Cell again. Stop, you horrible man. 700 Miles, anyone?

As for the recent stuff, most of it was a blur to me anyway. I suspect there'll be a White Stripes comp one day that will be cooed over and that a Hives song or two will end up on a box set. Beyond that, into the cut-out bin of doom!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 2 April 2003 00:54 (twenty-two years ago)

I concur, sirs.
Every time the labels are blindsided by some band's unexpected chart success, their typical reaction is to sign anything with a remote resemblance. And for every band that has a modicum of talent, there are legions that should never have been let out of the garage.
Out of this current crop, I think there are only a couple who will have careers of any note. The rest will be working at menial jobs, trying to pay off their advances. I can picture the Datsuns nestled against the Soul Asylum and recent REM albums in used CD stores across the continent.

― Bruce Urquhart (Bruce Urquhart), Wednesday, 2 April 2003 01:17 (twenty-two years ago)

"blindsided by some band's unexpected chart success"

it'd be one thing if this were true. but the fact is none of these bands have actually stormed the charts. for all the fanfare, the 2 biggest ones have barely cracked gold certification (in the U.S., anyway). which is not to say Elephant won't give 50 Cent some competition in Billboard -- but i doubt it. some of these bands may have long, respectable careers, but none of them is destined for the Nirvana-level crossover they're all being groomed by the media for. it's just silly. and it's media bias. I mean, Jimmy Eat World sold more records than the Strokes, but the mags aren't losing their shit over them as the return of rawk.

― Al (sitcom), Wednesday, 2 April 2003 01:42 (twenty-two years ago)

is that true?? Damn, it makes sense that it would be, but Jesus.

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Wednesday, 2 April 2003 01:46 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm not surprised. And frankly, based on the one Echo wannabe song I heard from Jimmy Eat World, I like them better.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 2 April 2003 01:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Ned's pretty OTM (I'd raise it to White Stripes get a box set and Hives get a great greatest hits comp). Most of this stuff doesn't interest me, cuz, as Al noted, this isn't even really catching fire with mainstream audiences (frankly, it's a lot like the electronica craze of '97). I've heard just as many if not more rap-rock songs that are damn interesting than "Garage rock" tracks.

Jimmy Eat World will definitely have a fine greatest hits album if they stick around. "Lucky Denver Mint," "The Middle" & "Sweetness" are admittedly cheesy but moving nonetheless.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 2 April 2003 01:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Though Al, you should remember that a lot of these bands get bigger sales on the second album. Look at Coldplay's chart success compared to Parachutes. Unless it's a traumatic burst of suck, I think the Strokes will do quite nicely the second time around.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 2 April 2003 01:56 (twenty-two years ago)

unless Spin has embraced 80s metal or trip hop by then

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Wednesday, 2 April 2003 02:02 (twenty-two years ago)

St. Johnny were just fine till that DGC record. I still own the one on Caroline. It's pretty massive sounding.

bands that will make it:

bands that won't:
all of them. who out of this batch of garage rock also-rans is getting serious (or even marginal) radio airplay? none.

― mosurock (mosurock), Wednesday, 2 April 2003 02:04 (twenty-two years ago)

so they'll maybe continue to be garage rock? OH NO!

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Wednesday, 2 April 2003 02:09 (twenty-two years ago)

It looks like nu-metal is finally gone for good. I'm happy about that. No more Full Devil Jacket, Simon Says or Apartment Zero albums. Who? Exactly. The new Grand Mal album ain't bad. There are some funny T-Rex things on it. Um, that would be Bill from St.Johnny.I don't have anything bad to say about him cuz he's a connecticut boy like me and my friend Jim used to be in his band during the Geffen years(They were miserable during that period by the way). Jim was in the Bunny Brains as well, Roger! He's all over their classic CD 93. Oh, yeah, I meant to say that I will take garage-rock rip offs over Korn rip-offs anyday.

― Scott Seward, Wednesday, 2 April 2003 02:53 (twenty-two years ago)

dudes, rap metal lives. I just got something by, uh, some band whose name has something sexy to do with cops, and they're totally limp to the bizkit, my friends. Maybe retro-99 is upon us already.

As for the matter at hand, none of these bands are REALLY cracking through. The Strokes (who really have nothing nothing nothing to do with Garage), Stripes and Hives are probably more familiar for their names than their music with Joe Q. Music Fan.
But, as compared to the Electronica non-start fad alluded to earlier, there has long been a community or scene or whatever for these bands. Or at least these types of bands. At the very worst it'll be more like what happened with ska, but on a much lower level.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Wednesday, 2 April 2003 03:21 (twenty-two years ago)

rap-metal is over, it just doesn't know it yet. There are at least a hundred bands that will never get the chance to have a sophmore slump. You can count on it. The garage rock scene has always been kinda small but really fanatical and it's been going on for decades.

― Scott Seward, Wednesday, 2 April 2003 03:35 (twenty-two years ago)

And Madison Ave. made electronica way bigger than the chem bros. or fatboy ever could have anyway.

― Scott Seward, Wednesday, 2 April 2003 03:38 (twenty-two years ago)

that's true, but Hot Hot Heat don't know anything about it. You can hear 'new jack' in their sound. Nothing against St. Johnny necessarily (OR Grand Mal, who I haven't heard, but a friend of mine who plays on my last album is in that band) but as an example of a Johnny Come Lately band, as far as the mainstream is concerned, they exemplify it.

Nu Metal was awful awful awful, yes - but it had nothing to do with me. My cousin said to me over Thanksgiving, "James, you're a musician, right? You must HATE all this Britney shit, huh?" and I had to explain why Britney meant no more to me than How To Marry A Millionaire or Trading Spaces or any other bullshit cultural phenomonon. Britney ain't breathing my air and neither were Full Devil Jacket. I have nothing for them but indifference. But I got a pile of shitty bands to review who all have tassled hair and Converse, and I'm disappointed that peers of mine are falling for it.

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Wednesday, 2 April 2003 03:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, I'm a big metal fan and its name has been sullied enough over the years. That's what bugged ME about nu-metal/rap-rock. And Britney, well, hell, how can you not love Britney. Although, you probably won't be seeing much of her either in years to come(famous last words).

― Scott Seward, Wednesday, 2 April 2003 04:00 (twenty-two years ago)

ha ha ha! yes i love metal too, but there was no way anyone would confuse Agoraphobic Nosebleed and Disturbed. Or Manowar and Full Devil Jacket. I hope nu metal reigns forever. Call me an elitist or whatever, but I like the lines that seperate me from mainstream culture. I guess I have too much HeartattaCk in me or something, but when I was at Virgin Megastore today buying blank tapes, and the new White Stripes was on over the loudspeaker, and the girl behind me who looked like she just stepped out of a Tommy Hilfigger ad was buying it, I knew I'd never listen to it again. My loss? possibly. But fuck it man I got Conrad Schnitzler. Know what I mean? If birds of a feather fly together, I don't wanna be near this bitch's fuckin nest, ya know?

One good nu metal band was Otep, at least their single, "Blood Pigs" - i loved that song

and you wanna talk about famous last words? I'm the idiot who famously whispered to a friend "they're going nowhere" when the Yeah Yeah Yeahs opened for Dead Moon to about ten people about two years ago.

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Wednesday, 2 April 2003 04:08 (twenty-two years ago)

I was gonna go into this whole thing about nu-metal, but really it just boils down to money. Relapse isn't gonna pay MTV a million bucks to play Neurosis videos so there ya have it. I actually thought it was really cool that Slipknot got so big. People hated them, but they were heavy records! There are parts of that Iowa album that rival any extreme/noise artists out there.Course it's mixed for maximum in the red ear buggery, but still. My fave nu-metal band: Mad Capsule Markets, but they are from Japan, so you know, they don't count cuz they are always cooler. My eat-my-words moment was when I saw the Strokes open up for Guided by Voices and me and my friend Don ( who is in that band the lilies ) couldn't believe how bad they were. We thought they sounded like a second-tier Madchester band from the early nineties. Course, after that, they played boot camp gigs at clubs where no one would see them, learned how to play, and stuck with the short, sharp catchy stuff instead of the psych-y bad-stooges oasis-accent crap that they were playing when we saw them. So, it wasn't entirely my fault. And about the white stripes, well, hell, I don't listen to music at home with a crowd of yuppies around me .I love the pop stuff, but I'm feeling yur punk rock vibe.I mean I hate most people, it's not that.

― Scott Seward, Wednesday, 2 April 2003 04:34 (twenty-two years ago)

which is not to say Elephant won't give 50 Cent some competition in Billboard -- but i doubt it.

Yeah, and one thing I like about Elephant is that it actually sounds like they don't care. I mean, they were obviously poised for big break-through blah blah blah, and they probably could have done it -- or they sure could have tried harder, anyway. Hired Butch Vig (or the equivalent, you know what I mean), synched Meg's drums so they were at least on the beat, brought in Billy Corgan to play bass or whatever... And they did none of the above. But at the same time, they haven't struck any big "no sell out" pose -- they do MTV, the magazine covers, whatever. They seem like they enjoy the attention and are wary of it at the same time (viz the White Blood Cells album cover/inner sleeve). They sound like they're having fun. And they've put out four good albums in a row. Nothing but affection from me.

― Jesse Fox Mayshark (Jesse Fox), Wednesday, 2 April 2003 05:18 (twenty-two years ago)

and they're #1 in the UK midweeks

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Wednesday, 2 April 2003 05:18 (twenty-two years ago)

I haven't heard Elephant yet, but wasn't what Jesse Fox was saying pretty much what "Little Room" (one of my favourite WS songs, along with "Pretty Good Looking" by the by) was all about. Trying to figure how to maintain that sort of, uh, fun and "innocent" element while playing the morally bankrupt circuit of MTV, Spin, whatever...

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Wednesday, 2 April 2003 05:24 (twenty-two years ago)

I also think that where it's going to really be damaging is in indie circles, where all of a sudden anything remotely garage-y is going to be passe, and some really really good bands are going to get overlooked.
I mean, I grew up on the Gibson Bros, the Workdogs and all that, and I'd hate to see that genre or style or whatev disappear b/c it's no longer fashionable, because that was really the beauty of it to me. It wasn't hip, it was over, it was never-had-been. It was losers who just loved doing it.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Wednesday, 2 April 2003 05:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Easy - The Darkness owns this thread.

― Sonny Tremaine (Sonny), Wednesday, 2 April 2003 05:46 (twenty-two years ago)

To address a previous point,

I'd just like to point out that going gold does constitute chart success. Consider how many bands don't sell 500,000 copies. I'd also like to point out that the U.S. isn't the only music-buying nation. And chart success is relative. If you're recording an album on a Michael Jackson budget, gold is nuthin'. If you're recording on eight-track analog, 500,000 is a lot of profit.
And the record companies are interested in a profit. There wouldn't be a second BMG Strokes album without it.

― Bruce Urquhart (Bruce Urquhart), Wednesday, 2 April 2003 06:30 (twenty-two years ago)

well, so anything remotely garage-y will be passe for a while. That's OK, and those that like it (i.e. me) can continue to see their favourite bands play at crappy little clubs for a few years, without having to deal with the question of "selling out", 'cause no one's buying, anyway. Not a bad deal all around, except for the few garage rocksters who think they want to make a living doing this. Oh, and the 2nd tier garage bands can move on to the next band wagon passing through. There's always at least one, ya know.

― pauls00, Wednesday, 2 April 2003 11:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Garage rock redux will become the new Britney/N*SYNC preteen pop in 3 years. And thats not a bad thing at all.

― SplendidMullet (iamamonkey), Wednesday, 2 April 2003 15:47 (twenty-two years ago)

good point, Bruce. however, the point I was making was more about how as much as this 'explosion' is being likened to the grunge wave of 10 years ago, the fact is that, from a sales/popularity standpoint, it's not nearly as, well, explosive. 'Nevermind' and 'Ten' were already well on their way to diamonds by the time the press really had latched onto it as a movement the same way this garage thing has been heralded since before 'Is This It' even dropped. granted, 500K still ain't nothin' to fuck with, and i give them respect for that, but it really seems like people like Spin are just desperately pushing these bands into the limelight and the middle schoolers of today aren't really going for it like the middle schoolers of yesteryear went for grunge and nu-metal. which is fine with me, as long as noone has any illusions about it.

― Al (sitcom), Wednesday, 2 April 2003 19:17 (twenty-two years ago)

or maybe they haven't really been exposed to it b/c R&B and hip-hop are dominating the airwaves right now and Clear Channel didn't want to take any chances fucking with the formula.

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 2 April 2003 19:32 (twenty-two years ago)

awright Al, I'll agree with most of that. The magazine covers and media attention does seem out of proportion with their actual sales. Since the bulk of modern rock is mind numbingly tedious, rock journos are desperate to latch onto something with a little bit of edge. The guys at Spin are just wrapping themselves in the last vestiges of their hipster cred.

― Bruce Urquhart (Bruce Urquhart), Wednesday, 2 April 2003 22:40 (twenty-two years ago)

I look forward to the '00s version of Nuggets that will no doubt pop up in about twenty years!

― Hayden Nicholls (Pop the Weasel), Thursday, 3 April 2003 01:37 (twenty-two years ago)

people always reference the idea of a '90s nuggets or an '00s nuggets. the problem I have is that the modern underground rock stuff is much less single oriented, plus record companies are gonna be less likely to play ball these days. I mean, would Matador hand Railroad Jerk's "Bang The Drum" over to Sub Pop or a major for a '90s nuggets?

And if, like the original Nuggets, we're mainly gonna deal with actual chart hits, then we could argue that these BEST OF '90s rock or POWER BALLADS USA comps ARE the Nuggets comps of today.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 3 April 2003 01:41 (twenty-two years ago)

For the record, "Bang The Drum" rocks.

Anyway, the garage or garage-y revival-esque stuff of the last 25 years or whatever isn't, y'know, Garage in THAT sense. It would be ridiculous to hold a comp up in the same light as the Nuggets sets (which are sorta ridiculous and overrated anyhoo).

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 3 April 2003 01:45 (twenty-two years ago)

BEST OF '90s rock or POWER BALLADS USA comps ARE the Nuggets comps of today.

In light of this I have decided to never hope for a "new" Nuggets ever again.

― Hayden Nicholls (Pop the Weasel), Thursday, 3 April 2003 02:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Hey now, I like DGC era St. Johnny. That album that was produced by Dave Friedman was their best, "Scuba Diving" sounded like Pavement giving a go at rap rock.
"I hate Rock'n'Roll" from Speed is Dreaming being another highlight. Wonder what those guys are doing now?
I can't get worked up about this garage rock revival. It seems like attitude without songs to me.

― theodore fogelsanger, Thursday, 3 April 2003 02:59 (twenty-two years ago)

or maybe they haven't really been exposed to it b/c R&B and hip-hop are dominating the airwaves right now and Clear Channel didn't want to take any chances fucking with the formula.

Jody, you're smarter than that. Clearchannel tries to have one station in each format at least -- country, "urban", nu-rock, etc.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 3 April 2003 04:44 (twenty-two years ago)

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