Taking Sides: En Vogue Vs. Destiny's Child

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"never gonna get it" was as tough an intro to america as "bills, bills, bills" but bills does get a bit more freaky, & "whatta man" is as good as any d's child single but it's almost entirely "I'm Blue" by the Ikettes ain't it? not that it matters generally, but it does kind of point out their fatal flaw: d's seem more like they're truly staking out their own turf whereas en vogue always had an old R&B redux shadow hanging over em.

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Thursday, 3 April 2003 18:58 (twenty-two years ago)

oh I think I was thinking of salt & pepa's "shoop" & the ikettes song, but it's something close

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Thursday, 3 April 2003 19:03 (twenty-two years ago)

My choice would be All Saints or Eternal...

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Thursday, 3 April 2003 19:03 (twenty-two years ago)

tough call but i think i'll go with the bootylicious Beyonce

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 3 April 2003 19:29 (twenty-two years ago)

En Vogue in their original incarnation were fucking **LIGHT YEARS** more impressive than Destiny's Child, but then again....so were the Happy Flowers.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 3 April 2003 19:31 (twenty-two years ago)

En Vogue. I dug the "old R&B redux shadow."

― Jeanne Fury (Jeanne Fury), Thursday, 3 April 2003 19:32 (twenty-two years ago)

"Free Your Mind" mufuggas. EV says me.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Thursday, 3 April 2003 19:44 (twenty-two years ago)

en vogue never made an album as good as the writing's on the the wall < /rockist>

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 3 April 2003 19:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Let's not rewrite history, now: without EnVogue, there would be no DC. Sure, EV were a little uptight, comparatively, but they didn't need to do a bunch of pseudo-gangsta collabs to prove themselves. Plus, EnVogue had a higher percentage of a) great singers; b) hotness; c)Funkadelic ripoff singles.

But Beyonce and Kelly R. are undoubtedly cool.

I just figured out Geir's unifying concept. Forget all that "melody" crap: he just HATES people from the United States! (All Saints my ass.)

― Neudonym, Thursday, 3 April 2003 19:46 (twenty-two years ago)

ilm in older = better shocker

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Thursday, 3 April 2003 19:48 (twenty-two years ago)

I own two En Vogue albums and two Destiny's Child albums. If we're going strictly on voices, it has to be En Vogue, but Destiny's Child has the more entertaining production/arrangement/lyrics ("NASTY put some clothes on!").

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 3 April 2003 19:50 (twenty-two years ago)

the beyonce-as-auteur theory is problematic

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 3 April 2003 19:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah...isn't more like she's the Venus/Serena Williams of R&B?

― Neudonym, Thursday, 3 April 2003 19:59 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm all for r&b artists to take control of their medium but only if they end up producing work at least on par with when they were "cogs"

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 3 April 2003 20:01 (twenty-two years ago)

En Vogue never did anything as gorgeous as "Perfect Man"

― Ben Williams, Thursday, 3 April 2003 20:02 (twenty-two years ago)

En Vogue were better with covers than Destiny's Child.

― Charles McCain (Charles McCain), Thursday, 3 April 2003 20:04 (twenty-two years ago)

I just figured out Geir's unifying concept. Forget all that "melody" crap: he just HATES people from the United States!

If they are called George W. Bush, Donald Rumsfeld or Dick Cheney, that is definitely true... :-)

On the other hand, if they are called Brian Wilson, Andy Stuermer or Brad Jones....

(All Saints my ass.)

Towards the end of their career, All Saints released two excellent singles, written and produced by a guy from the United States (William Orbit that is...)

Other than those two brilliant pop songs, they were just as crap as DC and En Vogue had always been. Eternal were nothing special either, but at least they were slightly more melodic than that repetitive crap by Destiny's Child and En Vogue.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Thursday, 3 April 2003 20:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Ben, you are on crack; what about "Hold On" and "Don't Let Go"?

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 3 April 2003 20:06 (twenty-two years ago)

you know, En Vogue did an a cappella version of "Yesterdays" that was actually quite stunning.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Thursday, 3 April 2003 20:06 (twenty-two years ago)

geir i'm wondering if you have any idea of what the words "melodic", "repetetive", and "english language" mean

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 3 April 2003 20:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Geir, I approve of your hatred list, but c'mon, you're making blanket statements about groups you obviously know nothing about. all you'd need to do is hear the two songs DP just mentioned to prove your statements about DC and EV wrong. (well, maybe not DC.)

I like one All Saints song, but I can't remember what it was, or how the melody goes

― Neudonym, Thursday, 3 April 2003 20:10 (twenty-two years ago)

"pure shores" is better than anything either dc or en vogue have done

(god, i feel like geir and i really mean this!)

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 3 April 2003 20:12 (twenty-two years ago)

"Pure Shores" is great but it can't compare to "My Lovin'" or "Bootylicious".

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 3 April 2003 20:16 (twenty-two years ago)

"Pure Shores" and "Black Coffee" are both sooooooo much better than anything DC or EV have ever done!

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Thursday, 3 April 2003 20:25 (twenty-two years ago)

see! i feel sooooooo dirty

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 3 April 2003 20:26 (twenty-two years ago)

jess and Geir are both wrong, but I'm leaving this argument. I really can't believe I'm turning into a huge defender of American r&b over that weak Gallagher-enhanced UK stuff...never really thought about it before...finding it hard to be real patriotic about this (or any) issue right now...shutting up soon....

But En Vogue have to be the winners! for unknowingly starring in the creepiest sex-rap of the 1990s, Tim Dogg's song where he talks about beating off while thinking about En Vogue, and about how "they all have a fat ass," and how he wanted to piss on their faces.

― Neudonym, Thursday, 3 April 2003 20:29 (twenty-two years ago)

gallagher? the comedian?

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Thursday, 3 April 2003 20:44 (twenty-two years ago)

http://shopping.yahoo.com/video/images/muze/vhs/sm/02/106002.jpg
VERSUS
http://www.bbc.co.uk/devon/music/images/oasis_liam_150.jpg

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Thursday, 3 April 2003 20:57 (twenty-two years ago)

En Vogue, hands down. En Vogue are perhaps the most talented R&B group to come onto the scene in 20 years. I fully respect them for their talent, their style, and the fact that they are the only modern R&B artist out there (Lenny Kravitz = rock and Terence Trent D'Arby = pop) who've managed to successfully meld both R&B and rock (with the superb "Free Your Mind", featuring Living Colour's guitarist Vernon Reid [IIRC -- the name hasn't come to me easily]).

Of course, one might also classify Dionne Farris as R&B -- in which case, she'd be my personal favorite [come back to us, Ms. Farris, PLEASE] -- but we're not dealing with her at the moment. *grin*

― Dee the Lurker (Dee the Lurker), Thursday, 3 April 2003 21:32 (twenty-two years ago)

jess I'm disappointed that you don't get the magic of Apple Pie A La Mode or Sexy Daddy or hell The Story Of Beauty (which is WAY better weepy than anything En Vogue did) and don't forget the magic of "Independent Woman Pt. II"

Also DC by sheer virtue of "Dilemma" and Hove and B 2003.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Friday, 4 April 2003 02:11 (twenty-two years ago)

"En Vogue never did anything as gorgeous as "Perfect Man" "

This is maybe the best reason for DC's pre-eminence, in a way - I think Destiny's Child have simply done *more*. "Never Gonna Get It" is possibly a better pop song than anything DC have done, but its virtues lie in perfecting a certain approach and then bludgeoning the listener with that perfection. Whereas DC have tried and perfected or near-perfected a dozen approaches; as pop songs, they're work is less all-conquering maybe because they're not as instantly familiar or easy to assimilate. But if you played the best twelve Destiny's Child songs back to back it would be as awe-inducing as any other body of work I can think of. Definitely starting with "Perfect Man".

However I will stand up for En Vogue's last album, a good half of which is underrated genius - anyone who has the tiniest amount of regard for R&B needs to here "Latin Soul", "Work It Out" and "Those Dogs".

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Friday, 4 April 2003 02:24 (twenty-two years ago)

echoing Tim slightly, I'll say that Destiny's Child had more good songs but En Vogue had more great songs. Nothing in the DC catalogue touches "Never Gonna Get It" or "Don't Let Go".

― James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 4 April 2003 02:51 (twenty-two years ago)

it is also uncanny this thread exists; I was actually thinking about this earlier today.

― James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 4 April 2003 02:52 (twenty-two years ago)

ILM is really disappointing me on this thread. "Whatta Man" (great song) notwithstanding, I'll take Beyonce's naive self-respect over En Vogue's veteran self-satisfaction any day. Also, the music - complex beats, much more stylish production, general better taste - is like a million times better. What makes the EnVies good singers? The "rock" over-dramatization? The melisma signifying nothing (give me Mariah any day)?

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Friday, 4 April 2003 03:35 (twenty-two years ago)

The ultra-tight harmonies, the always supported tone, the always sounding IMPECCABLE live... that's why. Also, criticizing En Vogue for melisma when comparing them to DESTINY'S CHILD is a dubious rhetorical strategy at best.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 4 April 2003 03:37 (twenty-two years ago)

En Vogue has its stamp on some of the biggest R&B singles of the nineties. "Free your mind" and "Whatta Man" with Salt and Pepa for example anyone?

― rex jr., Friday, 4 April 2003 11:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Doesn't seem like much of a match up. DC vs TLC might be, maybe, but simply on the strength of "Bug A Boo," "Apple Pie A La Mode" and "Independent Women," DC flattens the cyborgs and Beyoncé makes her case as non-cog auteur. And playing live in Peoria to a preteen crowd who have accepted *anything* they were thrown, DC went ahead and kicked ass anyway. "Never Gonna Get It" and "Hold On" did completely own NYC black pop radio when they came out (back when Hot 97 played Latin freestyle and "Hippy Chick" next to mersh R&B) and it was a very, very good thing. The EV Best Of is good but doesn't compare to the Exposé best of, another Hot 97 group from the day. But Dawn Robinson is annoying, qua human.

― Sasha Frere-Jones (Sasha Frere-Jones), Friday, 4 April 2003 12:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Dawn is from Hell, yes. Speaking of which, Lucy Pearl roxx u r all gay.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 4 April 2003 12:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Melisma, ok maybe. For its own sake, no. Raphael Saadiq, yes. Lucy Pearl, yes yes. Ali Shaheed Muhammad, yes yes yes.

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Friday, 4 April 2003 12:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Just last week I went on an En Vogue kick, and I was astounded at how timely everything still sounded, with the MAJOR exception of "Free Your Mind," which I guess you could argue is still the only female-fronted rap-rock hit single (is it?), but I couldn't stop cringing...

(can I just mention that Raphael Saadiq's "Still Ray," right now, is the best song I've ever heard? Dan, have you heard this? If not, grab it. You'll love it...)

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Friday, 4 April 2003 14:54 (twenty-two years ago)

For me, it's more a matter of En Vogue's music having a more organic vibe to it, whereas Gemini's Twin...er, Destiny's Child's music seems so rigid and planned and thought-out, as though the songs were once very fun and powerful, but then they were assimilated into The Borg.

(Don't get me wrong, I actually quite like DC, but given the choice, I'll go for EV.)

And I've heard "Still Ray", and it's fab...as is just about every Raphael Saadiq thing EVAH.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Friday, 4 April 2003 15:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Except his album.

― Ben Williams, Friday, 4 April 2003 15:20 (twenty-two years ago)

three years pass...

como comparar a destiny's child con en vogue destiny's child es mejor ademas de convertirse en el 2005 en el grupo con mas ventas de la historia.

― orlando williams, Friday, 21 April 2006 03:19 (nineteen years ago)

Wow I'd forgotten that I'd agreed with Ben Williams about something (namely the perfection of "Perfect Man").

(ben i did like you a lot though)

Although odd how neither of us mentioned how "Perfect Man" is quite clearly a partial homage to "Never Gonna Get It"!

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Friday, 21 April 2006 08:29 (nineteen years ago)

this thread tears me in two! no way to choose, i agree with all the points made by everyone on both sides, even the all saints side ('never ever' clearly one of the most perfect songs ever).

we were talking about 'don't let go (love)' on poptimists the other day, surprisingly few people remembered it. but it's absolutely gorgeous, esp that line "if i could wear you close, i'd pretend i was you".

― The Lex (The Lex), Friday, 21 April 2006 08:38 (nineteen years ago)

I always heard that as "If I could wear your clothes, but yeah great song and En Vogue are better than DC.

― Rodney's motives are beyond the comprehension of men (R. J. Greene), Friday, 21 April 2006 19:51 (nineteen years ago)

one year passes...

I have recently rediscovered what a great tune 'Don't let Go' is.

― chap, Sunday, 3 June 2007 16:07 (eighteen years ago)

Not to err on the side of Geir, but I'm pretty sure I prefer "Never Ever" to all the DC/EV singles.

― Tape Store, Sunday, 3 June 2007 16:38 (eighteen years ago)

Madness. While we're on the subject I'll mention how brilliant the relatively obscure, Timbaland-produced Destiny's Child song 'Get On the Bus' is.

― chap, Sunday, 3 June 2007 16:46 (eighteen years ago)

most Destiny's Child songs sound awful at this point in time but now is not the moment to judge them. although i'm sure they will turn out to have been our generation's Supremes: a few nice, humable singles, but more known for having been known than for the songs. i go with All Saints too.

― Jeb, Sunday, 3 June 2007 17:14 (eighteen years ago)

Destiny's Child's music seems so rigid and planned and thought-out, as though the songs were once very fun and powerful, but then they were assimilated into The Borg.

What a perfect summary of all that bugs me about DC.

― The Reverend, Monday, 4 June 2007 05:01 (eighteen years ago)

two years pass...

Listened to En Vogue's greatest hits tonight. Besides the obvious world-beating songs, I never noticed how great the production on "Whatever" from 1997 is.

― Merzbox and whale songs (The Reverend), Sunday, 23 August 2009 08:54 (fifteen years ago)

nine months pass...

en vogue is playing the Denver PrideFest this wknd tbh.

― tylerw, Wednesday, 16 June 2010 20:10 (fourteen years ago)

"don't
waste your time
fighting mind
blinding thoughts
of despair"

― hobbes, Wednesday, 16 June 2010 23:41 (fourteen years ago)

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