Not Bitching About Bad Threads, Just Starting My Own Good One: Unexpectedly Avant-Garde Moments in 'Classic' Pop Songs

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Stevie Wonder's stuttering harmonica solo in "Boogie On, Reggae Woman" sounds like it's been chopped up by Kid 606 or something...but it wasn't! It was like for real and stuff.

Another example: was Dave Brubeck's "Take Five" (actually written by Paul Desmond, I know) the first use of 5/4 time in a radio hit?

― Neudonym, Friday, 4 April 2003 14:43 (twenty-two years ago)

I always thought the theremin in Good Vibrations was the best part of the song.

― Carey (Carey), Friday, 4 April 2003 14:45 (twenty-two years ago)

also struck once again by how free-jazz (or maybe just brilliantly incompetent, but probably not) Dave Davies' solo on "You Really Got Me" is

― Neudonym, Friday, 4 April 2003 14:46 (twenty-two years ago)

The opening sequence (especially) of The Byrds' 'Eight Miles High' always pops into my head.

― Bryan (Bryan), Friday, 4 April 2003 14:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Me too Carey. Theremin + cello = INSTRUMENTAL AMBROSIA.

The middle section in Zeppelin's "Whole Lotta Love" is absurdly avant-garde and dissonant and psychefriggindelic, every time I hear it I wonder how the fuck they got away with it.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Friday, 4 April 2003 14:47 (twenty-two years ago)

How 'bout them raindrop pizzicato strings at the beginning and middle of the greatest song ever recorded, Ann Peebles' "I Can't Stand the Rain"? I got to play this the other night on a radio show and a whole lot of people were freaked out by it, only knew Missy, etc.

― Neudonym, Friday, 4 April 2003 14:52 (twenty-two years ago)

I always thought the theremin in Good Vibrations was the best part of the song.
I second that motion and say we put it to a vote.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Friday, 4 April 2003 14:54 (twenty-two years ago)

oh how can you vote for the tiny little theremin break over the weirdo vocal overlays? philistines! I'm not exactly a Beach Boys worshipper like some of y'all, but I always bowed before that section as some kind of acid-head genius.

― Neudonym, Friday, 4 April 2003 14:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, thats good too...but the theremin was absolutely KEY.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Friday, 4 April 2003 14:59 (twenty-two years ago)

First time I heard "Say My Name," before it was a hit, I thought the bridge or the pre-chorus (?!?--the really fast part) was the strangest beat-interjection ever on an r&b or pop record, and it continued to sound this way even after it was all over the radio.

― s woods, Friday, 4 April 2003 15:01 (twenty-two years ago)

I love how Good Vibrations is like 4 completely different songs.

Completely different, but sort of the same concept is "Bombs over Baghdad" (I'm not trying to be timely here...). When I first heard that song I couldn't possibly believe that any record company exec would see it as accessible in ANY WAY. It's another track that seems like it's pieces of different ideas flung together in a bizarre fashion. It works, yes, but it sounds somewhat insane.

― cybele (cybele), Friday, 4 April 2003 15:05 (twenty-two years ago)

the entirety of gossip folks.... (i mean,obviously a lot of timbaland/neptunes stuff as well,but gossip folks in particular is so fucked up sounding...)

― robin (robin), Friday, 4 April 2003 15:30 (twenty-two years ago)

The opening sequence (especially) of The Byrds' 'Eight Miles High' always pops into my head.

Damn, you stole my answer! Also, the solo is pretty jumbled/psych/great.

"Get Ur Freak On" threw me for a loop the first time I heard it on Hot 97.

― original bgm, Friday, 4 April 2003 15:33 (twenty-two years ago)

I agree about "BOB"...I think Dre/Big Boi must've got some record exec very high to convince them that the first single off their new (at the time) album should be "BOB"...a song with an absurd fast BPM for radio, a song with Hendrix-ized guitar bits, etc, etc. I mean, I remember hearing it on the radio sandwiched between Mary J. Blige and that "Make Ya Say Ugh" song, and I was like...WHAT THE FACK!!!! (in a really good way though)

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Friday, 4 April 2003 15:34 (twenty-two years ago)

I was strolling through a Walgreen's one afternoon, trying to decide between various brands of toothpaste, when TLC's "Silly Ho" came grinding through the ceiling speakers.

I don't know that "Silly Ho" has really achieved "classic" status, but it sounded like quite the piece of noisy avant-craziness in the context of the toothpaste aisle.

― EC, Friday, 4 April 2003 15:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Was Don Fardon's "Belfast Boy" a hit in the U.K.? Cuz the proto-techno synth sound on that track fuckin' rules!!! Came out when? 69-70? I think he invented acid-house with that song.

― Scott Seward, Friday, 4 April 2003 15:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Beatle-hating Neudonym sez: the opening chord of "A Hard Day's Night" ruulz.

And Giorgio Moroder's hypnotic hardcore trance synth line in Donna Summer's "Love to Love You Baby" ruuuulzzz with even more of an iron fist in a velvet jones.

More!

― Neudonym, Friday, 4 April 2003 15:42 (twenty-two years ago)

I always thought Art of Noise's "Moments in Love" was a poppy distillation of that avant-garde classic, "O' Superman" (which itself I'm guessing comes out of a Glass or Cage tradition, though can't say for sure), even though it too was apparently a "hit" in the UK (which I believe is an urban myth but whatever).

Seconded on "Gossip Folks" which is like an album's worth of ideas compressed into a single.

― s woods, Friday, 4 April 2003 15:42 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah actually now that i see donna summer mentioned,i had heard of i feel love loads,but the first time i heard it was in a techno mix-i figured out what the song was from the singing,and based on descriptions of the track,but i presumed it was the vocals mixed with techno...
i couldn't believe the original track actually sounded like that...
i mean,when was it made?
'77?

― robin (robin), Friday, 4 April 2003 15:47 (twenty-two years ago)

"o superman" at uk no.2 an urban myth? never!

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Friday, 4 April 2003 15:49 (twenty-two years ago)

"Every Little Thing" is like the most avant of avant Gotti productions.

(there are huge clouds just below eye level outside my window and the view is FANTASTIC -- they're just billowing out like a landscape. man I love skyscrapers.)

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Friday, 4 April 2003 15:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Yr in Chicago, correct Sterling? I love Chicago. :D

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Friday, 4 April 2003 16:12 (twenty-two years ago)

the first 3 seconds of the first p!nk album sounds like derek bailey...mostly in that hollow tone in the sheks'pere style harpsichord-guitar

― jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 4 April 2003 16:16 (twenty-two years ago)

The first 5 seconds of "Do You Feel It" by the Soul Survivors sounds like Sonic Youth. Or, I guess I should say, since that came out in 66-67: Sonic Youth sound like the first 5 seconds of "Do You Feel It" by the Soul Survivors. TS-Expressway(to yr skull)-vs-Expressway(to your heart).

― Scott Seward, Friday, 4 April 2003 16:31 (twenty-two years ago)

(good thread for a change!)

― oops (Oops), Friday, 4 April 2003 16:33 (twenty-two years ago)

It's just occurred to me (or, as Saddam would say 'just a kurd to me') that the middle bit, you know, the 'be quiet, be poised (?) and quiet' bit in 10cc's "I'm Not In Love" is as avant-garde as anything that reached the summit in the days when the no 1 had to sell a shitload of copies. The pre-'Bring your daughter' days, if you will.

― darren (darren), Friday, 4 April 2003 18:00 (twenty-two years ago)

I always thought she was saying "big boys don't cry" instead of "be poised and quiet"

a splendid example nonetheless

how about the double free-jazz saxophone solos on "Let's Dance" by Bowie? Wasn't he playing one or both of those things, too?

― Neudonym, Friday, 4 April 2003 18:06 (twenty-two years ago)

How about Jackal and them chainsaws RRRrrrrrrrrr.

― Carey (Carey), Friday, 4 April 2003 18:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh totally. Redneck metal performance art? The illegitimate child of The Nuge and Lorie Anderson or something.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Friday, 4 April 2003 18:30 (twenty-two years ago)

the first 10 secs or so of "Ms. Jackson," before the chorus comes in, sound like something Aphex Twin would record: backward drum sweeps, plinky kiddie keybs, disquieting atmosphere

― M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 4 April 2003 18:31 (twenty-two years ago)

loving those "breaking the fourth wall" songs, too; Janet Jackson saying "I could learn to like this" on "Nasty," thereby bigging up her producers' big fat beats as if she hadn't heard them until that very moment

I always got freaked out about backwards echoes in songs because clearly Time. Was. Running. Backwards.

and how about Neil Diamond doing existential philosophy in "I Am, I Said," wherein--just by singing those words--he was actually causing himself to happen in some kind of fuctup Escherian paradox

― Neudonym, Friday, 4 April 2003 18:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Not necessarily the song, but for the Pavement "stereo" video the Cheerios and milk being poured totally blow my mind. And when the plastic squirrel responds back in the song. Brilliant and understated.

― Carey (Carey), Friday, 4 April 2003 18:46 (twenty-two years ago)

If we're talking videos, Michel Gondry rules rules rules. Bjork's "Bachelorette" - *swoon*.

― Sam J. (samjeff), Friday, 4 April 2003 18:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Stone Roses "Don't Stop". This was one of my favorite songs on the album and then I found out that it was just Waterfall backwards years later.

― Carey (Carey), Friday, 4 April 2003 18:53 (twenty-two years ago)

the sweet home alabama 'turnitup' stutterredux of "don't tell me"

― James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 4 April 2003 18:56 (twenty-two years ago)

the 'let's throw ol chicken at prince at the stones show' breakdown collapse towards the end of "pop life"

― James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 4 April 2003 18:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Rather than start a new thread can I mention unexpectedly primitive or natural moments in otherwise avant-technic songs? i.e. the Snoop and Pharrell tune. They strike this nicely unexpected note of humility with the big Brazilian drum breakdown. Even though they're still swaggering and totally on top of their respective games. The way it goes with the video is irresistable. They (and the song) put themselves in this place where people may not even know who they are, and they (and the song) just soak it up.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 4 April 2003 18:59 (twenty-two years ago)

I do like that, although it'd been even better if Paul Simon had somehow popped, like Spin's Paul Simon-Hank Shocklee roundtable circa 91 turned into action.

― James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 4 April 2003 19:03 (twenty-two years ago)

all of Edgar Winter's "Frankenstein," still one of my 20 favorites I think, especially the really funky synth breakdown and then the guitar resurrection, like a mashup of "Whole Lotta Love" and "I Feel Love" ("I Feel a Whole Lotta Love")

― Neudonym, Friday, 4 April 2003 19:05 (twenty-two years ago)

I've seen They Might Be Giants cover "Frankenstein" in concert, and they NAILED TO THE WALL that synth/drums breakdown.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Friday, 4 April 2003 19:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Janet Jackson rules at breaking the fourth wall - "is that the end?" at the end of "miss you much", all the mumblings in "runaway" and "doesn't really matter"

supposedly "Frankenstein" was a mashup (sorta) of just a bunch of studio 'jams'.

― James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 4 April 2003 19:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Is it the Matmos album where all sounds are taken from liposuction surgeries?

― Carey (Carey), Friday, 4 April 2003 19:12 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, A Chance to Cut is a Chance to Cure

― James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 4 April 2003 19:14 (twenty-two years ago)

supposedly "Frankenstein" was a mashup (sorta) of just a bunch of studio 'jams'.

I'll buy that. My own band has a couple songs we've written that way; we refer to the as 'frankensongs'...wait, this sheds quite a bit of light on the title of that song! I get it now!

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Friday, 4 April 2003 19:14 (twenty-two years ago)

the 'let's throw ol chicken at prince at the stones show' breakdown collapse towards the end of "pop life"

Man, I was just going to mention "Pop Life," but more for the varispeed-sounding strings during the bridge. Eerie.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Friday, 4 April 2003 19:16 (twenty-two years ago)

The whole of Was/Not Was' career (I know I've seen Don Was trashed here before, and yeah he's kinda mushy where it counts sometimes, I agree - but avant, yup, and often) is littered with these moments! Prince, too, yeah - "Tambourine"! Crazy!

― matt riedl (veal), Saturday, 5 April 2003 11:43 (twenty-two years ago)

when working a lame sandwich shop job where oldies radio was played constantly reminded me of how "safely" programmers run the show. that said, i would always crank the volume up, if only for ten seconds, to get the maximum effect out of the opening of "magic carpet ride" by steppenwolf. i didn't care who was in the shoppe, retired wwii vets, seeing eye dogs, yuppie moms with preemies, EVERYONE goes straight to DMT-land with me! also, the end of BS+T "spinning wheel" gets pretty kooky - i usually think of first track, first lp by faust.

― Dr. Annabel Lies (Michael Kelly), Saturday, 5 April 2003 16:20 (twenty-two years ago)

The sudden unprepared modu8lation from C-major into F-major in "From Me To You"

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Saturday, 5 April 2003 18:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Conclusive proof I'm not listening to pop radio or whatever -- I can't pick out a moment of my own! I don't have a current standard to judge against.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 5 April 2003 18:49 (twenty-two years ago)

the abrupt and totally fucked up key changes in Adam Ant's "Goody Two Shoes"

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Saturday, 5 April 2003 19:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Those "Goody Two Shoes" changes are all the better when you hear the original zydeco song it's based on (Boozoo Chavis, I believe) and realize just how much Stuart and Marco a) ripped it off and b) subverted its intent. Brilliant derivativity.

How about Tommy Roe's "Dizzy" with its half-step changes back and forth until you feel like your inner ear's spazzing out?

― Neudonym, Sunday, 6 April 2003 06:31 (twenty-two years ago)

i've always liked the very beginning of the Bee Gee's "Jive Talking" -- some chicken-scratchy rhythm guitar, followed with some bass-popping that sounds almost electro. almost electro or rap, only this song is from 1975-76.

and loads of stevie wonder songs have "avant-garde"-y moments (i.e., the opening to "you haven't done nothing")

― Tad (llamasfur), Sunday, 6 April 2003 07:39 (twenty-two years ago)

How about:
middle section of Sagittarius' My World Fell Down (screaming babies & bullfight stuff)

mental section towards the end of The Buckinghams' Susan (noise & multitracked echo-ed up chants coming from absolutely nowhere)

opening 10 seconds of The Supremes' Reflections (overdriven oscillator sweeps all over the place, & occasional bleeps during the song itself)

"Be poised & quiet"!!! That's absolute genius.

― harveyw (harveyw), Sunday, 6 April 2003 08:09 (twenty-two years ago)

BIG ditto to "Magic Carpet Ride" intro

― James Blount (James Blount), Sunday, 6 April 2003 08:30 (twenty-two years ago)

the into to The Doors - "light my fire".

― rex jr., Sunday, 6 April 2003 08:45 (twenty-two years ago)

that should be intro.

― rex jr., Sunday, 6 April 2003 08:48 (twenty-two years ago)

did anyone ever notice the beginning of ccr's "run through the jungle"? it sounds like pharoah sanders' karma or something, with that ominous piano and the tambourine, and the guitar soundling like sonny sharrock for a split second. i have frequently mistaken this for a free jazz thing when it comes up on random on my winamp.

― Dave M. (rotten03), Sunday, 6 April 2003 10:02 (twenty-two years ago)

regardin' CCR - "Rude Awakening" (if memory serves...) undergoes a remarkable character transformation as well: from startin' out all dreamy n'mellow -- to gettin', gradually, all spiky-noisy and ominous

― t\'\'t (t\'\'t), Sunday, 6 April 2003 10:49 (twenty-two years ago)

does this make the avant garde more approachable? or ruin it?

― gaz (gaz), Sunday, 6 April 2003 10:53 (twenty-two years ago)

that depends if we're locating the avante garde as something oppositional to/outside of pop.

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Sunday, 6 April 2003 11:09 (twenty-two years ago)

so the entire song could be an avant garde moment in a "classic" song context?

― gaz (gaz), Sunday, 6 April 2003 11:11 (twenty-two years ago)

classic pop song context there, sorry.

― gaz (gaz), Sunday, 6 April 2003 11:13 (twenty-two years ago)

so the REAL ag gets to 'keep culture moving' outside of its context, while avant-pop can only do this within its own boundaries? (which are defined how?) (nb. these are as much q's i'm asking myself as anyone else, if this looks smartassy)

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Sunday, 6 April 2003 11:19 (twenty-two years ago)

In Beck's "Beercan", the "SQWRAOR!!!!" guitar feedback noisezilla break, as well as the whole toy-sample "I'm sad, and unhappy"...smack-it-up-flip-it-reverse-it bit, are really amazingly dissonant bits that somehow make the whole of this supremely-feel-goody-funked-up number even that much more feel-goody.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Sunday, 6 April 2003 16:56 (twenty-two years ago)

five years pass...

REVIVE!

I'd like to talk about songs and albums which could be perceived as avant garde but which nonetheless were huge global hits.

I'm thinking 'O Superman', In Utero, 'Mouldy Old Dough', Metal Machine Music (maybe? not sure if it was a "hit" as such), 'Good Vibrations' (as mentioned upthread), etc.

How does this happen? Should we be surprised? does it show that people are in fact more open to experimentation than they (or artists, or record labels) think? Or is it just a triumph of marketing over freedom of choice?

― Background Zombie (CharlieNo4), Wednesday, 7 January 2009 10:53 (seventeen years ago)

Also, more examples please!

― Background Zombie (CharlieNo4), Wednesday, 7 January 2009 10:53 (seventeen years ago)

what definition of 'avant-garde' are you using?

― DANCE MUSIC STUCK AT RECOMBINANT PLATEAU (special guest stars mark bronson), Wednesday, 7 January 2009 10:54 (seventeen years ago)

get the semantics over with first, otherwise you will just name inventive pop records like 'good vibrations'.

― DANCE MUSIC STUCK AT RECOMBINANT PLATEAU (special guest stars mark bronson), Wednesday, 7 January 2009 10:55 (seventeen years ago)

well yes, i'm not sure GV actually qualifies, since it's just a great pop song with a wiggly bit in the middle. In Utero and 'O Superman' are perhaps fuller examples.

Wiki will do nicely when it comes to a definition:

"...people or works that are experimental or innovative...a pushing of the boundaries of what is accepted as the norm or the status quo, primarily in the cultural realm...tracing a history from Dada to the Situationists...innovative and ahead of the majority...open pathways through new cultural or political terrain for society to follow"

― Background Zombie (CharlieNo4), Wednesday, 7 January 2009 11:01 (seventeen years ago)

concrete examples like dada or the situationists are ok, and something like 'o superman' fits because laurie anderson has that kind of new york art-scene bullshit cultural capital, but 'experimental or innovative' is just woolly. what is the 'norm or status quo' in pop music?

― DANCE MUSIC STUCK AT RECOMBINANT PLATEAU (special guest stars mark bronson), Wednesday, 7 January 2009 11:04 (seventeen years ago)

by definition, if the song is 'ahead of the majority', it can't be a pop song. in other words, the a/g had as a large part of its deal 'being opposed to being popular/kitsch/mass culture'. a lot of people are in denial about this because of the odd moment where (say) the surrealists embrace such-and-such a popular entertainment (e.g. feuillade's 'fantomas').

as for 'opening pathways through new cultural or political terrain for society to follow' -- yeah right.

― DANCE MUSIC STUCK AT RECOMBINANT PLATEAU (special guest stars mark bronson), Wednesday, 7 January 2009 11:05 (seventeen years ago)

^^^ is good example, CharlieNo4

― Yehudi Menudo (NickB), Wednesday, 7 January 2009 11:13 (seventeen years ago)

Dunno if it was any kind of hit but I've always though that Danke Schoen by Wayne Newton was (for the time) structurally a bit batshit, it's just 4 choruses (or arguably verses) in a row. Each time round ascending to a different key and adding more instruments whilst getting musically & rhythmically slacker and more swinging as it goes on.

― MaresNest, Wednesday, 7 January 2009 11:14 (seventeen years ago)

That's an excellent example, Nick! Hadn't thought of 'Danke Schoen' but it's food for thought.

I wish 'Come to Daddy' or even 'Girl/Boy Song' had been proper hits. I'd say 'Hyperballad' fits.

― Background Zombie (CharlieNo4), Wednesday, 7 January 2009 11:41 (seventeen years ago)

'hyperballad' is not particularly avant-garde in any sense

― lex pretend, Wednesday, 7 January 2009 12:09 (seventeen years ago)

i mean i love it but any avant-garde-ness you read into it is surely based on bjork's rep more than the music

― lex pretend, Wednesday, 7 January 2009 12:09 (seventeen years ago)

Not that the whole song isn't totally whacked, but the loop of what sounds like hundreds of dogs barking very far away that underlies all of "Tusk."

― Hideous Lump, Thursday, 8 January 2009 03:45 (seventeen years ago)

heavy tremolo effect on the vox in the coda to "Crimson & Clover"

― Pain don't hurt. (Pillbox), Thursday, 8 January 2009 03:59 (seventeen years ago)

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