Ten "cannonical" albums that are closer to dud than classic.

Couldn't disagree more with VU&Nico, Nation of Millions, Trout Mask and Exile.

Fairly indifferent towards the rest.

I'd like to add:
everything the Beastie Boys have ever done
Husker Du's Zen Arcade
The Roots in general

and more when I remember...

None of these even made the Top 1000 in the last (so far) Virgin Top 1000 book collected by Colin Larkin

I bought Exile a few months back and was shocked at how rubbish i thought it was.

isn't the Virgin list is based on polling customers and not critics, though? because canons tend to be written by critics, so I'm not sure that's the best place to go to smash one.

A combination of both. I doubt Kate & Anna McGarrigle would have reached the list from customers votes only.

because canons tend to be written by critics, so I'm not sure that's the best place to go to smash one.

Canons tend to be suggested by critics, and then picked up by the audience. "Canonical" albums are usually enjoyed both by audiences and by critics. Exactly like the classical music canon.

I too, for what it's worth, bought Exile expecting at least something I could hear as a rock & roll classic, and was astounded at the pile of shitty posturing contained therein.

Aren't all "canonical" albums, really?

Personally, I feel like attacking Public Enemy, Captain Beefheart, Otis Redding and Velvet Underground isn't all that usual, but they are among the very worst cases of overrated albums to me.

And there is no way that I would even dream of attacking such obviously beautiful classics as "Sgt. Pepper" and "Pet Sounds.

"Rise" is decent. Other than that, I enjoy nothing that John Lydon has ever been involved in.

Anyway Geir, "Lick My Decals Off, Baby" is commonly regarded as better than "Trout Mask." Get with the program baby.

and Public Enemy is by no means the "whitest black music ever" - that distinction, my friends, belongs to either Lauryn Hill or The Roots.

Stickers. Decalcomania, I believe the word is for a 19th-century middle-class obsession. Somehow the previous seems appropriate for Mr. Hongro's musical leanings--very Victorian and musty, no Negroes allowed and all. Rock on.

that's insane like geir.

in what parallel universe has this occurred?

Actually, apart from hip-hop, Otis Redding and Aretha Franklin, I will actually say that the black albums usually associated with the "canon" are actually great ones: "What's Going On", "Songs In The Key Of Life"/"Innervisions", "Purple Rain"/"1999". Definitely deserved "canonical" items all of them.

I'm not a big punk fan either, but I always thought
Replacements' _Sorry Ma, Forgot To Take Out The Trash_
kicked sooo much. It's the only Replacements album I
truly dig, which is odd, since most people consider it
a minor detour on their path to greatness.

BTW: The Virgin Top 1000 book is a fucking joke. And Sgt. Pepper is a relic.

I'm not a big punk fan either, but I always thought
Replacements' _Sorry Ma, Forgot To Take Out The Trash_
kicked sooo much. It's the only Replacements album I
truly dig, which is odd, since most people consider it
a minor detour on their path to greatness.

And Geir, you're the first person I've heard refer
to "black albums." I'm not denouncing this, it's just
odd.

True. Not too bad that one either (for a funk album, that is, anyway).

And, yes, I enjoy "Sign "O" The Times". Wrote "1999" by mistake, while I really meant "Sign "O" The Times".

in what parallel universe has this occurred?

In the universe where people listen to records and come to some kinda consensus about which ones work best. In the Beefheartian (?) universe, "Decals" is commonly regarded his best album--in fact Mr. Van Vliet hisself says this too.
So--as I say, grumpily, completely over this stupid fuckin' Geir Honrgo bullshit--get with the program baby.

"albums by black acts" probably would have been a more correct term (or "R&B albums", as Jimi Hendrix and Love obviously don't fit in with the rest musically). Probably mainly a matter of English not being my native language.

The difference is that Trout Mask Replica is extremely, incredibly complex and difficult to play. While any moron with a tape player and an amplifier could make either of the other two albums mentioned, replicating Trout Mask Replica would require phenomenal skill. I don't think this says anything about the *quality* of the music, but it strikes me as a major major difference. Beefheart at Co.'s arrangements are mind-shatteringly complex in many cases - at first it sounds like just babble, but then you realize that it's more like five musicians playing five completely and very strange and different songs at the same time. That takes a lot of effort and concentration.... for what that's worth...

....or a lot of LSD.....

Maybe because me listing it among those 10 wasn't exactly a surprise? :-)

um, "it takes a nation" (and "fear of", incidentally) are better than anything the beatles or the stones have ever done.

Do explain.

I'm sorry, there is just no hope for you.

alex, i think "nations" is certainly a defining moment - in a way, it's not as good an ALBUM (i.e. coherent whole) as "fear of a black planet" - i suppose there is room for argument about the assumption that it's the best rap album ever. but it's not even NEAR the demesne of dud.

And you just can't argue with the fact that each time a magazine or somebody else with a readers base that vary in age vote those Top 100 lists, The Beatles usually end up having 3-4 albums in the Top 10. Those who don't like The Beatles, sure, probably nice enough to them, but they have to admit they are in a very small minority.

Okay, that's cool. "Better" would take just so much difficult explanation.

There are some differences, but reader-driven polls are still reader-driven polls. Albums that are current favourites may be a little higher on the list than deserved. Also, the majority of people listening to the Britneys and the Christinas are probably not reading those music magazines, let alone sending in their ballots.

However... As I mentioned earlier, it is very long and some of the tracks go on for a day and a half each. The lyrics are v. great, yes but the beats are often too repetitive and harsh. I much prefer Straight Outta Compton - it's so much more defined and it doesn't have Flava Flav on it (I don't hate Flava Flav but after sixteen tracks of constant egging it gets tedious, ok?).

Surprised to see the mention of Pearl Jam on this thread - have they ever made anything we can consider important? They seemed to be far more an American thing than a British...... thankfully.

This may also be the case with critic polls. Just think of all those British critics going bananas over The Next Big Thing every other day.

HAPPY EASTER MOFUGGAS!

HA HA HA HA *vanishes in puff of smoke*

about half of Geir's list is totally OTM (although I finally came around on VU+Nico recently)

http://www.amusicdirect.com/images/lda8/lda80208.jpg

classic

Oh c'mon! It has the Clash attempting about fifteen different musical genres and succeeding on about four of them! Plus it was important.

Maybe because me listing it among those 10 wasn't exactly a surprise? :-)

-- Geir Hongro (geirhon...), April 9th, 2003.

...or maybe most fans don't really consider 75 shit words thrown together at random to be any sort of serious attack.

The CD age, with its possibilities to skip single tracks, has made this album considerably more enjoyable. Because, actually, it does contain some great tracks, for certain. "Sunday Morning" and "Femme Fatale" are both beautiful songs, but then unlistenable crap like "Heroin" and "European Son" needs to be skipped, and then there isn't a lot left of the album give those are among the longest tracks. Terribly patchy and definitely not a classic!

I agree with this 100%, except that I'd transpose the song selections. for me, it's the plodding nico tracks and their distracted, droning, monotone vocals that really bring this album down. where it succeeds is in chewing up and spitting out the conventions of earlier rock music, balancing harmony and dissonance, order and chaos. to my ears, the nico tracks are just too mannered, and haven't dated at all well.

-- bernard snow (andrew.bryso...), August 28th, 2006.

otm, most overrated album ever! well, maybe not the most, but close.

that said, it's a...er, "sprawling" enough album to have several good to great songs on it.