why do so many people think the Sex Pistols "invented" punk?

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WHY???

― arc-de-ciel, Tuesday, 8 April 2003 11:48 (twenty-two years ago)

cuz they're English

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 11:52 (twenty-two years ago)

cos they care

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 11:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Why do so many people think the modern Santa Claus was invented by Coca-Cola?

Right.

― Øystein Holm-Olsen (Øystein H-O), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 11:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Because they didn't do their research. If they had just dug below the surface, they'd have figured out that Jerry Lee Lewis invented punk.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 12:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Because they discovered it wasn't Green Day who invented it?

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 12:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Because Richard Hell & the Voidoids didn't want Malcolm McLaren to be their manager.

― Aaron W (Aaron W), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 12:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Nobody thinks the Sex Pistols invented punk. Everyone knows the Ramones' debut came out a full year earlier than Never Mind the Bollovks. They tour Europe and then all of a sudden you've got all these bands like the Clash and the Sex Pistols and the Damned and the Buzzcocks trying to cop the Ramones' style. And that's how punk started.

― Evan (Evan), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 12:41 (twenty-two years ago)

ya gotta love this place

― Snowy Mann (rdmanston), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 12:43 (twenty-two years ago)

"Because Richard Hell & the Voidoids didn't want Malcolm McLaren to be their manager."

Sorry to be pedantic but actually it was well before The Voidoids that Malcolm approached Richard Hell; it was after Malcolm had made a balls up of managing The NY Dolls and around the time RH left Television and joined The Heartbreakers with Johnny Thunders and Jerry Nolan.

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 12:43 (twenty-two years ago)

why? WHY? WHY? WHY? HAHAHAHAHA!

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 12:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Nobody thinks the Sex Pistols invented punk. Everyone knows the Ramones' debut came out a full year earlier than Never Mind the Bollovks.

Oh, there are definitely people who think Sex Pistols invented punk. I remember getting into huge arguments about that when I was in high school, and would invariably get counterarguments from the punk kids that "Ramones aren't punk, they're rock'n'roll" etc. Of course, these were the people who couldn't understand why I liked Nomeansno, and considered NOFX to be the upper echelon of 90s punk.

I was a frustrated young man at times.
Now I'm a frustrated old asshole who constantly goes to message boards to write in all caps and never use commas.
Anyone else do the mashed potato while typing? It's pretty fun.

― Øystein Holm-Olsen (Øystein H-O), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 12:47 (twenty-two years ago)

You is right. I guess I just like writing "Voidoids."

Anyway, the Troggs invented punk.

― Aaron W (Aaron W), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 12:50 (twenty-two years ago)

the cycles are getting too short around here for me anymore

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 12:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Jerry Lee was the original punk. Everyone knows that.

― Jazzbo (jmcgaw), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 12:54 (twenty-two years ago)

"Punk is not just about a timbre of guitar! Remember that! HAHAHAHA!"

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 12:54 (twenty-two years ago)

and would invariably get counterarguments from the punk kids that "Ramones aren't punk, they're rock'n'roll" etc.

Oh, I can DEFINITELY see how some people would call the Ramones a non-"punk" band. I just don't happen to agree with them!

― Evan (Evan), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 12:55 (twenty-two years ago)

it was always there
just waiting to be discovered
and not 'invented'

― Snowy Mann (rdmanston), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 12:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Good point!

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 12:58 (twenty-two years ago)

the cycles are getting too short around here for me anymore

ragged-arsed trousers to thread

martin-skidmore-to-point-out-category-error to thread

someone-to-point-out-that-punk-is-an-'attitude'-and-therefore-nothing-to-do-with-what-it-actually-sounds-like-except-in-relation-to-previous-orthodoxy to thread

― Snowy Mann (rdmanston), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 13:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Supposedly the origin of the term is credited to Dave Marsh in a 1971 issue of Creem where he describes a live performance of Question Mark & The Mysterians. So, you could argue that Question Mark & The Mysterians invented punk. The problem is, from then on the meaning divulged into increasingly different paths of meaning, describing bands, people, actions, scenes, fashion, etc.

― Ryan McKay (Ryan McKay), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 13:15 (twenty-two years ago)

someone-to-point-out-that-punk-is-an-'attitude'-and-therefore-nothing-to-do-with-what-it-actually-sounds-like-except-in-relation-to-previous-orthodoxy to thread

"Punk is not just about a timbre of guitar! Remember that! HAHAHAHA!"

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 13:15 (twenty-two years ago)

MUST....RESIST.....URGE....TO....JOIN...THREAD

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 13:17 (twenty-two years ago)

come on alex

come on

you know you want it

― Snowy Mann (rdmanston), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 13:19 (twenty-two years ago)

i know woody allen...

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 13:21 (twenty-two years ago)

"Monk Time" by the monks and "There She Goes Again" by VU are the earliest punk tracks i'v heared.

― rex jr., Tuesday, 8 April 2003 13:28 (twenty-two years ago)

HEAD.....ABOUT....TO....EXPLODE....

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 13:29 (twenty-two years ago)

or who cares.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 13:30 (twenty-two years ago)

nobody has mentioned a single real punk band yet.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 13:32 (twenty-two years ago)

maybe there aren't any

― Snowy Mann (rdmanston), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 13:34 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah there are. like the beatles.

but only their early stuff before they sold out.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 13:35 (twenty-two years ago)

punk rockism to thread

― Snowy Mann (rdmanston), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 13:36 (twenty-two years ago)

People think the Sex Pistols invented punk because:

(a) As it turns out, the Sex Pistols sound markedly different from the majority of their punk contemporaries, enough so that you could actually make a case that they weren't punk. However

(b) Their version of "punk" turned out to be the dominant version of punk, particularly as it came back to the U.S. over the following years. Which means

(c) People think they invented it, in which sense they're sort of right -- the Pistols invented Pistols-style punk, which somehow became the strain of punk the word "punk" wound up belonging to for a while.

It's harder to say why they became the focus of "punk" -- some combination of being very commercially successful, I suppose, and of being culturally iconic to punk. And leaving way more evidence of themselves -- in the form of video, interviews, and news -- than a lot of their contemporaries. But if "punk" as people had conceived of it had been more to do with the sorts of punk played by the Damned or the Adverts or something, this would all be different.

(Possible gaping hole in this theory: "punk" as it's been conceived of in the U.S. since the 80s tends to sound more like Stiff Little Fingers than the Pistols.)

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 13:38 (twenty-two years ago)

"Cause Greil Marcus said so!"

― Charles McCain (Charles McCain), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 13:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Nah, Greil Marcus said the Cathars invented punk.

― die9o (dhadis), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 13:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Actually I take back what I just said. The sound of American punk has always been 90% Ramones, the only circa-77 band I could imagine playing "All the Small Things" without sounding too bizarre. But the idea of punk -- including the look of it -- has always been given over to the Pistols.

And still there's the sound issue. For most of their contemporaries punk was attitude and process, really, stuff that got applied to a particular form of overcharged rock'n'roll. The Pistols more than most others wiped that rock'n'roll background out a bit (and perhaps dropped in a bit of Sabbath as well), leaving something that can seem more centrally "punk" than most punk (which doesn't actually sound like "punk," see?).

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 14:34 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.zm101.com/los50/jerrylee/FYOU.JPG

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 14:49 (twenty-two years ago)

I agree with everything nabisco said. The Pistols turned punk into a theatrical/visual thing; most punk is just a bunch of ordinary guys and three chords and not really notable unless you're into that sort of thing. Pistols punk the old people can take pictures of kids with mohawks and safety pins in their face.

― Kris (aqueduct), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 15:01 (twenty-two years ago)

The Ramones - musically uninteresting, one song played over and over again.

The Sex Pistols - RAW POWER.

this kind of answers the original question, as basically the Stooges invented punk. But that answer is rockist. In any sense that matters the Sex Pistols are the first punk band.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 15:08 (twenty-two years ago)

""invented""

― thom west (thom w), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 15:10 (twenty-two years ago)

"Supposedly the origin of the term is credited to Dave Marsh in a 1971 issue of Creem"

tell that to Leggs McNeill...

― Jeanne Fury (Jeanne Fury), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 15:13 (twenty-two years ago)

The Sex Pistols DID invent British punk. American punk was different because it was mostly guys in their mid to late 20s and had a sense of irony and detachment. The Pistols were young and not even remotely ironic (I doubt Steve Jones knew what it meant).

― Dadaismus, Tuesday, 8 April 2003 15:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Another good question is why the British "own" punk -- i.e., why is "punk" London-77 and not New York-77? (Okay, it's not really a good question because the answer is obvious, but still: what does it mean that this giant varied "punk" thing has been reduced to a specific vision of it, and all of its other parts cordoned off as punk-but-not-really-punk?)

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 15:20 (twenty-two years ago)

becuz, per usual in the UK music = fashion, nothing more

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 15:23 (twenty-two years ago)

surely punk has been kicking around as a music form for ages early 60's for instance - i mean garage bands were bashing out 2 minute hard edge rock and roll that is to all intents and purposes PUNK.

most people were aware of 'punk' with the advent of the pistols and the Sex shop - as a reult Punk has exosted way before the SP but became primarily a marketing tool post 76

― james (james), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 15:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Without the Ramones & Richard Hell, there wouldn't have been a Sex Pistols.Case dismissed!NEXT?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 15:28 (twenty-two years ago)

no Johnny Thunders, no Steve Jones

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 15:30 (twenty-two years ago)

So true, James....even by his own admission.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 15:31 (twenty-two years ago)

And without the Beach Boys, there would have been no Ramones. Does this mean Brain Wilson invented punk?

― Burr (Burr), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 15:34 (twenty-two years ago)

That wasn't the question. The question was whether or not the `Pistols invented it,........smartypants.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Tuesday, 8 April 2003 15:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Skipping 136 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

So you've never seen this Alex? Prepare thineself:

http://www.attrition.org/gallery/spoof/lord_of_the_blings.jpg

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Friday, 11 April 2003 19:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Do I have to be the first person to ask what that is?

― Ally (mlescaut), Friday, 11 April 2003 19:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Its to block image linking to Attrition.org/

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Friday, 11 April 2003 19:27 (twenty-two years ago)

thank you.

― Ally (mlescaut), Friday, 11 April 2003 19:31 (twenty-two years ago)

any time.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Friday, 11 April 2003 19:31 (twenty-two years ago)

You're the best. Anything I can do to return the favor, just ask.

― Ally (mlescaut), Friday, 11 April 2003 19:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Happiness again reigns supreme.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 11 April 2003 19:57 (twenty-two years ago)

(*speads joyous pixie dust*)

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Friday, 11 April 2003 20:00 (twenty-two years ago)

...and soon, I shall all of ILM shall be hopelessly addicted to the narcotic effects of my pixie dust!
BWAhahahahahaha!

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Friday, 11 April 2003 20:01 (twenty-two years ago)

...
oh...wait...did I just say that out loud?

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Friday, 11 April 2003 20:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Sex Pistols in particular were leaden, lumpen, utterly normal heavy rawk, just a bit messy and with less flashy guitar solos - like a bunch of 6.5/10 rock school students.
Lydon'soh sorry "Rotten"'s voice was the only radical element in the sound, and if you didn't like it there was nothing else to find +ve/interesting....
other than all the look-at-me HOO-HA of course

But how do you explain, then, how they, aurally, blow away the competition? Don't listen to Bollocks to do it - it has half a dozen peak tracks and then the other stuff. But stacking up Anarchy/Holidays/Queen/Bodies/Submission/Belsen against virtually anything else similar from the time and those tracks just elbow them out of the way. I've just done it with the Dolls and the Clash, who in many ways were both better bands. Those tracks just knock them over, though.

Some of it was that Lydon was prepared to go further with his vocal attack, sure (esp Bodies and Belsen). But why do these pistols tracks also dominate every single PIL track I've heard?

― phil wise (beachbum), Friday, 11 April 2003 22:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Ok, pixie dust is totally unpunk, kid.

― Ally (mlescaut), Friday, 11 April 2003 22:28 (twenty-two years ago)

but its PUNK pixie dust. (Its made by mohawked elves)

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Saturday, 12 April 2003 22:35 (twenty-two years ago)

phil - only you can answer that question...

(btw - have read that NMTB's producer came to the task fresh from working with Paul McCartney - probably not something that would have been shouted about at the time - ooh those crafty music types, eh ?)

― Snowy Mann (rdmanston), Saturday, 12 April 2003 23:06 (twenty-two years ago)

then again that was well before the cult of THE PRODUCER

(which, to the extent it revealed the workings of the process, was a good thing on average)

― Snowy Mann (rdmanston), Saturday, 12 April 2003 23:09 (twenty-two years ago)

phil - only you can answer that question...

I disagree. I don't think there is any such thing as an objective standard when it comes to this sort of thing, and I'm perfectly happy if *you* can't answer the question because that isn't the way you hear it. But I'd say some sort of majority of open listeners to the sex pistols can hear the force of those tracks. I'd hazard that's why the album remains a classic (that and the whole history/myth thing of course). So there's a significant listening community that may be able to answer the question.

Having said that, my guess to the answer would lie in either that the music is more original than you think (although I can hear the resemblances you citeth), OR (and) that some other spark ignites the things even if they aren't, in the sense you mean, original. Invention or inspiration - sometimes it is hard to tell them apart.

― phil wise (beachbum), Sunday, 13 April 2003 07:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Jonathan Richman invented punkrock :-)

― Jens (brighter), Sunday, 13 April 2003 16:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Hal Chase invented punk rock

― James Blount (James Blount), Sunday, 13 April 2003 16:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Oe of my best friends looks like Jonathan Richman, it's frightening.

― Ally (mlescaut), Sunday, 13 April 2003 22:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Does he make a big deal about how "straight" he is too?

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Sunday, 13 April 2003 23:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Come to think of it, there was this story about another guy punctuated with an awful lot of "It was just for fun, you see, I'm not gay".

― Ally (mlescaut), Sunday, 13 April 2003 23:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Musically Stooges was first punk-rock band, I think. But not mentally -- by image they were just demeneted hippies. But about SP -- coz McLaren created the legend. With whole hype, LP and film. Nobody else did it.

― Margus Kiis, estonian rock critic (Margus Kiis, estonian rock cri), Sunday, 13 April 2003 23:26 (twenty-two years ago)

two months pass...

1596 LODGE Incarn. Deuils Wks. (Hunter. Soc.) IV. 69 He hath a Punck (as the pleasant Singer cals her).

― The OED, Thursday, 19 June 2003 00:10 (twenty-two years ago)

People think of The Pistols when punk is mentioned 'cuz...
they were louder and way more obnoxious. They had an agenda that involved politics, posing as anarchists and rallying 'gainst the Queen and such. They so ca-rayzee. They made themselves more noticeable in the end, by being the real catalyst for the movement. I personally happen to think the Ramones were a better band several times over and more than just a punk band.

― Francis Watlington, Thursday, 19 June 2003 00:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Jerry Lee Lewis: godfather
Screaming Lord Sutch: "look at me-me-me!" lunacy
Beatles (Hamburg): leather jackets, Phil Spector covers
The Stooges: rude 'tude
Led Zeppelin, "Communication Breakdown": frenetic barre-chording
NY Dolls: shamelessly showoff androgymous attire
Tubes, "White Punks on Dope": name check
Malcolm McLaren: PT Barnum/Col. Parker

― Chris Clark (Chris Clark), Thursday, 19 June 2003 06:50 (twenty-two years ago)

To answer Dave's question:

The Users - "Sick of You" / "I'm In Love With Today"
The Rezillos - Can't Stand the Rezillos
Eater - The Album
Skrewdriver - "You're So Dumb" / "Better Off Crazy"
Slaughter and the Dogs - "Cranked Up Really High" / "The Bitch"
The Boys - "Sick On You" / "Soda Pressing"
The Damned - "Neat Neat Neat" / "Stab Your Back"
Johnny Moped - "Incendiary Device" / "Noone"
The Pork Dukes - "Telephone Masturbator" / "Bend and Flush"
Adverts - "Bored Teenagers" / "Gary Gilmore's Eyes"

― Kris (aqueduct), Thursday, 19 June 2003 15:21 (twenty-two years ago)

The Rezillos were English?

― dave q, Friday, 20 June 2003 06:58 (twenty-one years ago)

a better answer for dave's question: every british punk record was good.

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Friday, 20 June 2003 07:07 (twenty-one years ago)

(i have no idea if this is actually true or not, just that i've never heard a bad one, at least from 77-79)

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Friday, 20 June 2003 07:08 (twenty-one years ago)

i heard all the bad ones justyn, trust me

caring who invented it = you don't understand it

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 20 June 2003 08:27 (twenty-one years ago)

mark: could you list some superfun english punk tunes I'm probably not familiar with but should be familiar with (ie. to dl)

― James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 20 June 2003 08:44 (twenty-one years ago)

please

― James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 20 June 2003 08:44 (twenty-one years ago)

kris's list = a v.strong start

(haha the pork dukes)

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 20 June 2003 08:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Desperate Bicycles. It's easy it's cheap go and do it. I did.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Friday, 20 June 2003 09:06 (twenty-one years ago)

And I haven't stopped....

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Friday, 20 June 2003 10:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Where WERE the Rezillos from? OK replace them with Alberto Y Lost Trios Paranoias - Snuff Rock EP.

― Kris (aqueduct), Friday, 20 June 2003 14:16 (twenty-one years ago)

kris they're scottish

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 20 June 2003 14:22 (twenty-one years ago)

.... and Alberto Y Los Trios Paranoias were a comedy / theatre group taking the piss.

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Friday, 20 June 2003 14:24 (twenty-one years ago)

So?

― Kris (aqueduct), Friday, 20 June 2003 14:36 (twenty-one years ago)

So != punk.

Very good and very funny but not punk.

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Friday, 20 June 2003 14:44 (twenty-one years ago)

b-b-but half of all bondage trousers and associated bumflaps at the time seemed to be TARTAN

haha do you expect us all to believe that's JUST A COINCIDENCE?

― Snowy Mann (rdmanston), Friday, 20 June 2003 14:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Ummmm.... I was talking about Alberto Y Los Trios Paranoias (who came from Manchester IIRC) not The Rezillos (debateably punk, but Scottish which of course definitely != English)

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Friday, 20 June 2003 14:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Incidentally, fwiw, The Pork Dukes were a bunch of Fairport Convention / Steeleye Span renegades (basically the same people who later recorded as The Wombles!) taking the piss too.

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Friday, 20 June 2003 15:07 (twenty-one years ago)

(oops i reread that and saw what you meant after posting sorry)

still the dread legacy of victorian crazes stalketh the land muahahaaaaa..

― Snowy Mann (rdmanston), Friday, 20 June 2003 15:07 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm not sure how "taking the piss" is incompatible with punk. Or is it too punk to be punk?

Also, I know Scottish isn't english, but how is it even debatable that the Rezillos were a punk band? Is there some threshold level of sanctimony required to achieve punkness? Why let the bores ruin it for everyone else? Any definition of punk that would exclude the Sex Pistols (who were obviously "taking the piss" more than anyone else, since they had the largest bathroom) doesn't seem very useful to me.

If these groups aren't punk what are they then? Are the Pork Dukes a folk band?

― Kris (aqueduct), Friday, 20 June 2003 15:21 (twenty-one years ago)

The Rezillos were SCOTTISH!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 20 June 2003 15:22 (twenty-one years ago)

The rezillos rocked and were fukcing great. That's all I care about really.

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 20 June 2003 15:24 (twenty-one years ago)

"I'm not sure how "taking the piss" is incompatible with punk. Or is it too punk to be punk?"

The people in the bands were not punks, they were making music in the style of punk.

".... how is it even debatable that the Rezillos were a punk band?"

Because they were formed in '76 and their main influences were glam rather than punk. Fwiw I'm not necessarily saying that I would exclude them personally but there are some who would - hell there are some who would exclude The Stranglers or even The Vibrators on far flimsier pretexts!

"If these groups aren't punk what are they then? Are the Pork Dukes a folk band?"

Alberto Y Los Trios Paranoias were a bunch of actors / comedians taking off punk (cf: Spinal Tap or Bad News). The Pork Dukes were / are a bunch of session musicians using punk as a pretext to indulge in some rather lame and inane lavatory humour.

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Friday, 20 June 2003 15:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Pashmina is absolutely OTM incidentally

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Friday, 20 June 2003 15:34 (twenty-one years ago)

q: were the main influences of punk bands punk then? and if, so how did it get there?

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Saturday, 21 June 2003 05:32 (twenty-one years ago)

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