"This genre was invented by..."

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yes, i want to start more fights...

just list off genres and who invented them, in your humble opinion, of course. i would prefer the more debatable choices NOT to be backed up with arguments, purely because they won't irritate many other people that way.

if you fancy answering a serious question, well, feel free to consider the extent to which any genre was "invented" by one artist. is there any one we can all agree on? interesting...

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Thursday, 10 April 2003 13:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Ambient-Brian Eno. COMPLETELY!

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Thursday, 10 April 2003 13:32 (twenty-two years ago)

overrated remixes: DFA

(heh)

― geeta (geeta), Thursday, 10 April 2003 13:33 (twenty-two years ago)

psychedelia-pink floyd

― schnellschnell, Thursday, 10 April 2003 13:33 (twenty-two years ago)

rap - John Cooper Clark

― tigerclawskank, Thursday, 10 April 2003 13:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Jazz. Jelly Roll Morton. 1902.

― scott m (mcd), Thursday, 10 April 2003 13:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Jazz-Buddy Bolden, 1890 or something, tho he may well be largely imaginary

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Thursday, 10 April 2003 13:36 (twenty-two years ago)

"metalcore" converge

― Jon Williams (ex machina), Thursday, 10 April 2003 13:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Emo-Rites of Spring

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Thursday, 10 April 2003 13:38 (twenty-two years ago)

"metalcore" rorschach (or corrosion of conformity probably)

― simon 803 (simon 803), Thursday, 10 April 2003 13:38 (twenty-two years ago)

nu emo: lifetime

re: rorschach - which one? the hardcore-ish one? or the metalish one?

― Jon Williams (ex machina), Thursday, 10 April 2003 13:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Dub--King Tubby

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 10 April 2003 13:41 (twenty-two years ago)

dub - Sir Coxsone

― schnellschnell, Thursday, 10 April 2003 13:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Bluegrass - Bill Monroe

― James Ball (James Ball), Thursday, 10 April 2003 13:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Funk - James Brown

― James Ball (James Ball), Thursday, 10 April 2003 13:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Music - The Beatles

― Geir Schlongro, Thursday, 10 April 2003 13:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Rockabilly - Elvis Presley

― James Ball (James Ball), Thursday, 10 April 2003 13:47 (twenty-two years ago)

>Ambient-Brian Eno. COMPLETELY!

Wrong. Tangerine Dream.

― fletrejet, Thursday, 10 April 2003 13:50 (twenty-two years ago)

the Beatles - the beach boys/pink floyd

― schnellschnell, Thursday, 10 April 2003 13:51 (twenty-two years ago)

"Goth" - Siouxsie & the Banshees

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 10 April 2003 13:51 (twenty-two years ago)

T/S: Noise - Masami Akita or Lou Reed

also, who was the first, "indie' band? (aka 80's punk bands that weren't crusty, hardcore or new wave)

― Jon Williams (ex machina), Thursday, 10 April 2003 13:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Ambient - Erik Satie (the philosophy of it at least)

― Dadaismus, Thursday, 10 April 2003 13:53 (twenty-two years ago)

indie - TVPs

― schnellschnell, Thursday, 10 April 2003 13:55 (twenty-two years ago)

electrrronica - delia derbyshire

― schnellschnell, Thursday, 10 April 2003 13:56 (twenty-two years ago)

industrial - me, age 2, my parents' kitchen

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 10 April 2003 13:58 (twenty-two years ago)

music concrete - Stockhausen

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Thursday, 10 April 2003 14:02 (twenty-two years ago)

That last one is totally wrong, what it should say is:

Musique Concrete: Pierre Schaffer
Electronic Music: Karlheinz Stockhausen

― Dadaismus, Thursday, 10 April 2003 14:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Electronic Music: Karlheinz Stockhausen
nope.

Electronica - Edgard Varese.

― rex jr., Thursday, 10 April 2003 14:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Excuse me, but Varese's first purely electronic piece wasn't composed until 1957 (or 1958), some time after Stockhausen. If you'd said Otto Luening or Vladimir Ussachevsky I might have said you had a point.

― Dadaismus, Thursday, 10 April 2003 14:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Dub--King Tubby
-- oops (buttch9...) (webmail), April 10th, 2003 9:41 AM. (later) (Oops)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
dub - Sir Coxsone
-- schnellschnell (...) (webmail), April 10th, 2003 9:42 AM. (later)

I always thought Dodd made the first 'versions' (basically instrumentals), but the first true 'dubs'(tracks fading in/out rather than being punched in/out, reverb, delay and other effects) were made by Tubby, no?

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 10 April 2003 14:12 (twenty-two years ago)

IDM = RDJ

― jk@agg, Thursday, 10 April 2003 14:19 (twenty-two years ago)

"free jazz" = ornette coleman, supposedly

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Thursday, 10 April 2003 14:22 (twenty-two years ago)

oh right, 'poeme electronique' - 1958.
totaly right about Vladimir Ussachevsky & Otto Luening.

― rex jr., Thursday, 10 April 2003 14:25 (twenty-two years ago)

punk = Avril Lavigne

― AdorablyCluelessYoungster (nickalicious), Thursday, 10 April 2003 14:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Ussachevsky & Luening early 50's compositions were concrete-type tape-manipulations and effect-processing of non-electronic sources

thought Beyer & Eimert did first purely-electronic recordings - at WDR Cologne in approx '53

― Snowy Mann (rdmanston), Thursday, 10 April 2003 15:10 (twenty-two years ago)

serialism = schoenberg ?

― Snowy Mann (rdmanston), Thursday, 10 April 2003 15:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Grindcore - Siege (I guess it could be argued for Deep Wound, or Repulsion and Napalm Death who took it another step)
Death Metal - Possessed
Thrash Metal - Exodus?
Prog rock - King Crimson? (Hard to say, easy to trace it further back to the so-called protoprog bands like Marsupilami etc, hell, even Beatles)
Canterbury - The Wilde Flowers?
RIO - Henry Cow (OK, admittedly it wasn't meant to be considered a genre at the time)
Fusion - Tony Williams lifetime? Or was Coryell at it earlier? I'm very uncertain here... I've even seen people claim Zappa was first.
Kosher-Kebab Jazz - Alamaailman Vasarat (sorry)

(Damn, this sure makes it obvious where I've spent a lot of my music-exploration time, hah)

fletrejet: why do you consider Tangerine Dream ambient? I take it you're referring to Phaedra etc? I dunno, to me this isn't ambient music at all. I never see fans of those styles calling it ambient either, seems that stuff, Schulze etc is generally referred to as just Berlin EM. Though that admittedly isn't much of a genrename! But hey, neither is krautrock, yet everyone loves saying that.

― Øystein Holm-Olsen (Øystein H-O), Thursday, 10 April 2003 15:28 (twenty-two years ago)

― ddd, Thursday, 10 April 2003 15:36 (twenty-two years ago)

on a different note:
Surf- bel airs "mr moto"

― ddd, Thursday, 10 April 2003 15:40 (twenty-two years ago)

space rock - Pink Floyd?
Garage - The Wailers(50's)?

― rex jr., Thursday, 10 April 2003 15:41 (twenty-two years ago)

math rock - pitchblende

― ddd, Thursday, 10 April 2003 15:41 (twenty-two years ago)

re: "Free jazz" - didn't cecil taylor's first LP come out before ornette coleman's? he didn't have a term for it but what he was doing could definitely be considered "free".

someone once argued with me that mission of burma were the roots of all emo. it's hard to disagree when listening to "that's how i escape my certain fate" or "red".

there's a lot of debate in hardcore circles about deep wound - many feel that j. mascis invented the blast beat, but others say what he played on that 7" is NOT a blast beat.

post-rock - this heat maybe? certainly there's a lot of evidence for earlier things like faust, krautrock, out prog, etc. but in terms of what we call post-rock today, this heat sound like a far superior version.

this is a dumb discussion anyway....

― j fail (cenotaph), Thursday, 10 April 2003 15:46 (twenty-two years ago)

punk - dave marsh
heavy metal - lester bangs
grunge - chuck eddy
post-rock - simon reynolds
skronk - christgau
new wave - ira robbins?

― s woods, Thursday, 10 April 2003 15:52 (twenty-two years ago)

rock 'n' roll - alan freed

― s woods, Thursday, 10 April 2003 15:54 (twenty-two years ago)

s woods, you got in ahead of me there, but I'll still post....

Rock 'n' roll - Hank Williams. ('Move it on over')

― James Ball (James Ball), Thursday, 10 April 2003 15:56 (twenty-two years ago)

that new wave tinged hardcore thing: antioch arrow

― Jon Williams (ex machina), Thursday, 10 April 2003 15:58 (twenty-two years ago)

heavy metal - The Kinks?

― rex jr., Thursday, 10 April 2003 16:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Turntablism = John Cage

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 10 April 2003 16:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Rock & roll = Ike Turner

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 10 April 2003 16:09 (twenty-two years ago)

I like s woods answers

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 10 April 2003 16:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Rock & roll = Ike Turner

Ike came after Hank.

(Though it's a daft argument, I know.)

― James Ball (James Ball), Thursday, 10 April 2003 16:14 (twenty-two years ago)

well, joy division, oops i mean black sabbath and uriah heep definitely played goth before siouxsiee and the banshees; link wray played heavy metal before the kinks (and metal mike saunders i mean steppenwolf and william burroughs named it before lester bangs); harmonica frank floyd played rockabilly before elvis. (but did junior walker or bo diddley or ? play funk before james brown? i forget.)

can't remember if i really invented grunge, either. but what the hell.

― chuck, Thursday, 10 April 2003 16:21 (twenty-two years ago)

p.s.) also, i think dag nasty and my dad is dead played "emo" before rites of spring, but maybe i'm wrong. (and "metalcore" was invented before converge or c.o.c. were even BORN, i think. i nominate void, maybe. or die kreuzen. or rudimentary peni. or black flag. or ???.)

"ambient" was probably invented by God, assuming God exists.

― chuck, Thursday, 10 April 2003 16:26 (twenty-two years ago)

if God invented "ambient" than Satan invented "dark ambient" (assuming both do exist).

― rex jr., Thursday, 10 April 2003 16:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Heavy Metal-William Burroughs
Punk-ditto

― Charles McCain (Charles McCain), Thursday, 10 April 2003 16:36 (twenty-two years ago)

all music was invented by al gore

― ron (ron), Thursday, 10 April 2003 16:43 (twenty-two years ago)

actually, the yardbirds played goth before sabbath or heep. (and robert johnson may well have played goth before the yardbirds.)

i also don't understand what possessed or exodus did thrash-and-death metal wise that venom hadn't already done, but maybe i'm just stupid.

more metalcore inventor nominees: negative approach and the necros.

woody guthrie (and a zillion other people, many of them insulting your grandmother in prison) played rap before john cooper clarke.

― chuck, Thursday, 10 April 2003 16:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Okay, the pointlessly curious and totally bored me at work can't stop wondering, who (by my crit-eria) invented disco: Vince Aletti or Michael Freedberg?

Also, hip-hop. And when did 'rap' become 'hip-hop'? (I ask this as someone who actually remembers 'rap' but can't totally recall when the switch occurred?)

(Oh, and for the record, Chuck, you 'invented' grunge in a Voice piece in '86--some Seattle band, I believe. Anything else you need to know about yourself?)

― s woods, Thursday, 10 April 2003 16:56 (twenty-two years ago)

die kreuzen!

― Jon Williams (ex machina), Thursday, 10 April 2003 17:00 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm wrong, though. I now recall discovering a few years ago that Lester Bangs used 'grunge' in a White Witch review (1972?), so not to worry, it's not your fault!

― s woods, Thursday, 10 April 2003 17:02 (twenty-two years ago)

I wrote this before Scott found the White Witch precedent:

-----

No, I think that's wrong -- I think I called *Too Tough to Die* by the Ramones "grunge" two years before that, in 1984. (Never wrote about any Seattle bands in the VOICE in '86, though when writing about a compilation by a bunch of them -- Skin Yard, Green River, U-Men, Malfunkshun -- in Creem in '86 or so I did jokingly predict that in a few years everybody would turn on MTV and hear that the future of rock music was in Seattle, but I'm pretty sure I was calling it SASQUATCH ROCK then, not grunge.) And I doubt that my '84 Ramones piece was the first time the word "grunge" was used to describe noisy punk-metal rock either, though I can't think of precedents offhand.

― chuck, Thursday, 10 April 2003 17:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Free Jazz. Lennie Tristano "Intuition" and "Digression." 1949.

― scott m (mcd), Thursday, 10 April 2003 17:07 (twenty-two years ago)

space rock - Pink Floyd?

-- rex jr. (samuelsdec720...), April 10th, 2003.

Hows abouts The Ventures Ventures in Space (circa 1963), or most certainly, some Sun Ra -- maybe 1959's The Nubians of Plutonia.

― christoff (christoff), Thursday, 10 April 2003 17:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Fela Kuti--Afrobeat

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 10 April 2003 17:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Hows abouts The Ventures Ventures in Space (circa 1963), or most certainly, some Sun Ra -- maybe 1959's The Nubians of Plutonia.
hmmm... i thinks i never heareds nither of thoughs bands, buts will check them out.

― rex jr., Thursday, 10 April 2003 17:43 (twenty-two years ago)

And i do understand that sun ra isn't a band.

― rex jr., Thursday, 10 April 2003 17:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Check out "Telstar" (by the Tornadoes -- 1962, pre-Ventures!) while you're at it.

― chuck, Thursday, 10 April 2003 17:55 (twenty-two years ago)

New Wave - Seymour Stein.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 10 April 2003 18:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Pschobilly -- The Blue Hippos (circa 1987)

--good call on the Tornadoes, chuck.

― christoff (christoff), Thursday, 10 April 2003 18:38 (twenty-two years ago)

I think the Cramps or Shockabilly or somebody were called pyschobilly in, like, 1979. (And if you asked, I bet they'd both tell you that it was invented 20 years before THAT. By, um, Hasil Adkins for instance.)

― chuck, Thursday, 10 April 2003 18:43 (twenty-two years ago)

did you write for Op/Option? because the issue i have (at home inconveniently) mentions "grunge" or "grungy" in the review of the Deep Six comp. the issue is 85/86 and has mark e. smith on the cover.

sasquatch rock came out in '87 from LAWNDALE, ca. (cf, lawndale's cover of "take 5/whole lotta love" vs. pavement's "take 5/she's so heavy").

― gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 10 April 2003 18:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Hmmm...Lawndale were on SST, right? Maybe they stole the phrase from me! I dunno. That C/Z *Deep Six* comp was the one I reviewed in Creem Metal; also wrote about early Skin Yard & Melvins LPs. And I reviewed LOTS of SST records, both in Creem and the Voice (where I did a LONG roundup of them once), but never any Lawndale ones. And I definitely associated the Northwest with Sasquatches and other bigfeet.

― chuck, Thursday, 10 April 2003 19:14 (twenty-two years ago)

But oh yeah, I never wrote for Op, or Option for that matter.

― chuck, Thursday, 10 April 2003 19:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Your right chuck, absolutely.

― christoff (christoff), Thursday, 10 April 2003 19:35 (twenty-two years ago)

" " == John Cage

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 10 April 2003 19:38 (twenty-two years ago)

"hip hop": Fab Five Freddy (Maybe. Anyway it was first the portmanteau term that covered rap, breakdancing, double dutch, graffiti writing, etc.)

― Methuselah (Methuselah), Thursday, 10 April 2003 22:37 (twenty-two years ago)

emo: me.

― Colin Meeder (Mert), Friday, 11 April 2003 09:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Death Metal - Possessed

Only the vocal style and the actual NAME, Slayer arguably codified the musical/thematical side of things (riff and solo style, drumming, the nihilism that set it apart from the 'socially conscious' speedmetal of the Metallica/Testament generation). Slayer vs Possessed was always the subject of endless debates...

Black Metal: Venom or Hellhammer?

NWOSDM: Eucharist or At The Gates?

― Siegbran (eofor), Friday, 11 April 2003 09:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Kool Herc - Hip Hop
Phuture - Acid House
Juan Atkins, Derrick May - Techno

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Friday, 11 April 2003 09:42 (twenty-two years ago)

WOw! i just heared "Telstar" by The Tornadoes, GREAT track! thanks fr the suggestion Chuck!

― rex jr., Friday, 11 April 2003 13:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Isn't it wonderful? :-) Joe Meek lives on forever.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 11 April 2003 14:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Gangsta Rap: Kool G Rap? Schooly D? Ice T?

― oops (Oops), Friday, 11 April 2003 14:49 (twenty-two years ago)

When I stated:

Musique Concrete: Pierre Schaffer
Electronic Music: Karlheinz Stockhausen

I should have added the caveat that the former is indisputable while the latter is debatable - tho I do know one person who claims loud and long that Karlheinz Stockhausen invented electronic music: Karlheinz Stockhausen!

― Dadaismus, Friday, 11 April 2003 15:48 (twenty-two years ago)

he also hates dance music. what a champ

― ddd, Friday, 11 April 2003 15:54 (twenty-two years ago)

stockhausen <=> dance music
as
the bauhaus <=> multi-storey car parks

― Snowy Mann (rdmanston), Friday, 11 April 2003 16:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Punk - The Novas: "The Crusher"

― Leon, Saturday, 12 April 2003 03:04 (twenty-two years ago)

ambient

Debussy

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Saturday, 12 April 2003 04:36 (twenty-two years ago)

teen-pop: frank sinatra
mash-ups: dickie goodman

― s woods, Saturday, 12 April 2003 04:48 (twenty-two years ago)

idm: young mc

[from AMG: "Intelligent and middle-class, rapper Marvin Young earned a degree in economics from USC, where he met Michael Ross and Matt Dike, co-founders of the fledgling Delicious Vinyl rap label...]

― s woods, Saturday, 12 April 2003 04:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Noise - Luigi Russolo, 1913.

― Dave Fischer, Saturday, 12 April 2003 04:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Exotica -- Les Baxter

― christoff (christoff), Monday, 14 April 2003 15:32 (twenty-two years ago)

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