your thoughts on 'punk' affectations in madonna, avril graphics

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i saw an ad for an avril lavigne concert that utilized this computer-generated font that aspired to look like crudely stenciled lettering. there was also some silly slogan, like 'no rules' or some shit.

the new madonna album's cover art has the same naff stencil thing going on, except in this case the letters are crimson and 'bleeding'.
there is also some lame visual-deconstruction-of-the-u.s.-flag bad art stuff going on in the corner. and she is made up to look like che guevara (!)

what does this all mean? i know this stuff has been going on forever, and doubtless been discussed to death, but spell out for me what it means when corporations spend tons of $ trying (and comically failing) to look low-budget/diy/'street'/'underground'/'punk'/'trashy'/ whatever...

we all know that if someone who genuinely represented one of these elements walked in off the street and attempted to enter the offices of the entertainment conglomerate in question, s(he) would be immediately escorted off the premises, like so much filth.

― Dallas Yertle (Dallas Yertle), Monday, 21 April 2003 12:35 (twenty-two years ago)

at this point, it's kind of the equivalent of the "psychedelic" graphic style in the late 1960s being used for the same things. Or Johnny Mathis singing "Light My Fire." Not really offensive, but kinda silly.

― hstencil, Monday, 21 April 2003 12:49 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think Madonna's Che Guevara look is meant to look d.i.y. or underground or trashy.

― Ally (mlescaut), Monday, 21 April 2003 13:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Punk? Didn't that die out around 1978?

― William R Henderson (Cabin Essence), Monday, 21 April 2003 13:19 (twenty-two years ago)

that's part of what i don't get. the mor artists in the sixties who took on the trappings of psychedelia at least were doing it contemporaneously, or only a couple of years behind the times...but, yeah, the punk shit they're trying to ape happened about a quarter century ago.

the guevara chic is at least an attempt to be 'revolutionary' or 'underground', right? if not, than just why is she using the imagery? and since she was too fucking chickenshit to show her tame video that had the just the barest suggestion of criticism of militarism and the bush administration, its just so much bullshit! madonna has as much in common with che guevara as avril lavigne does with huey newton.

― Dallas Yertle (Dallas Yertle), Monday, 21 April 2003 13:41 (twenty-two years ago)

punk is/was/will be at least as much about fashion as music/lifestyle/revolution/whatev.
fashion is inherently insipid.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 21 April 2003 13:43 (twenty-two years ago)

i think Madonna really does consider herself revolutionary

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 21 April 2003 13:55 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think Madonna's Che Guevara look is meant to look d.i.y. or underground or trashy.

I think she thinks that, frankly. As it is it just reminded me of the Nike print campaign for last year's World Cup.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 21 April 2003 14:12 (twenty-two years ago)

How could anyone, particularly someone who has proven quite a lot of imagery smarts before, be stupid enough to think that anyone imitating the Che Guevara propaganda is d.i.y., underground, or revolutionary these days? My ex-boyfriend used to dress like that for god's sake.

― Ally (mlescaut), Monday, 21 April 2003 14:16 (twenty-two years ago)

I used to think it was revolutionary - until I found out that Ally's ex used to dress that way. How totally UN revolutionary it must be, then!

― dave225 (Dave225), Monday, 21 April 2003 14:19 (twenty-two years ago)

well, it seems to serve a purpose though, namely keeping people from noticing how crappy her music is.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 21 April 2003 14:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Thhat's the fucking funniest thing I've read all day.

Che Guevara cribbing = the most played out thing in history. Generally done by people who like poli sci bands and read Dostoyevsky.

― Ally (mlescaut), Monday, 21 April 2003 14:22 (twenty-two years ago)

When Ian McCulloch and Will Sergeant sported military togs, it was simple, effortless cool. When Jaz Coleman smears his face with warpaint, its an invokation of the coming apocalypse that he very firmly believes in. When Madonna puts on military garb, it's simply a fashion statement, despite all earnest claims about "extreme points of view." I have yet to hear how her prancing around in camo fatigues while singing about the perils of fame adds up to any vague semblance of an "extreme" "pro-peace" perpsective in the slightest capacity.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 21 April 2003 14:25 (twenty-two years ago)

"i saw an ad for an avril lavigne concert that utilized this computer-generated font that aspired to look like crudely stenciled lettering."

Real punks use comic sans font.

― David Allen, Monday, 21 April 2003 14:31 (twenty-two years ago)

How could anyone, particularly someone who has proven quite a lot of imagery smarts before, be stupid enough to think that anyone imitating the Che Guevara propaganda is d.i.y., underground, or revolutionary these days?

Well, I do like Horace's answer, admittedly. ;-) I dunno -- if we want to say that Madonna is the new Bowie, then this her 'rough and edgy' Tin Machine period, with this artwork standing in for the beard. You can demonstrate plenty of smarts and STILL be dumb.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 21 April 2003 14:33 (twenty-two years ago)

I assume the whole fetishism of stenciled lettering as one of the "fonts of Punk" (eclipsed only by the ransom-note cut-up variety favored by the `Pistols) dates back to the first Clash album (have at it, pedants), but twenty-some-odd years later, is it really anything more than a cliché?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 21 April 2003 14:35 (twenty-two years ago)

That's kind of my point: these are things that were "revolutionary" (can fonts be revolutionary? That's so weak), but now that they are, you know, 20 years old, I have a hard time believing any reasonable person actually believes it as anything "revolutionary" at all anymore. It is just a fashion statement now, the same way as any other outfit would be.

― Ally (mlescaut), Monday, 21 April 2003 14:38 (twenty-two years ago)

I think that's the whole point: it's a Revolutionary Font.
As Madonna proved by pulling her video, she's not AGAINST anything, she's not trying to overthrow anything, she's just wearing a costume. It's like when you see nurses in porn movies. Real nurses don't dress like that.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 21 April 2003 14:43 (twenty-two years ago)

I have a hard time believing any reasonable person actually believes it as anything "revolutionary" at all anymore

...something about this doesn't quite gel for me, though. It assumes that everyone's just like us. It might not be revolutionary per se but it still could be seen as 'edgy' by certain people in a certain context.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 21 April 2003 14:46 (twenty-two years ago)

nurses wear clothing in real life?

― hstencil, Monday, 21 April 2003 14:47 (twenty-two years ago)

I actually (when visiting my former room-mate whose lung had collapsed) saw a foxy nurse once.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 21 April 2003 14:48 (twenty-two years ago)

and the back of her uniform was semi-transparent and I could see her underpants. it was very emotional for me.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 21 April 2003 14:50 (twenty-two years ago)

like a promise fulfilled.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 21 April 2003 14:50 (twenty-two years ago)

I'd like to say it's no different from Shania sporting that fabled Ramones t-shirt, but I think Madonna is a bit more informed, and therein lies the problem. Madonna started her music career as a member of a shambolic "punk" band playing venues like Max's Kansas City and the Mudd Club back in the fertile early 80's. She isn't completely in the dark about the sound and iconography of Punk Rock. She even signed the Bad Brains to Maverick (they only lasted one, abortive album, but her heart was in the right place). I think that's why it's so depressing. I mean, Avril being swathed in clichéd imagery is not a shock....she's young, impressionable and ultimately stupid. I'd like to think Madonna would've been more aware of how tired such imagery appears.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 21 April 2003 14:50 (twenty-two years ago)

It assumes that everyone's just like us.

And what evidence do we have that the average person isn't? Their taste in music? A dodgy way of deciding what is and isn't edgy or out there to the average human being.

Alex is OTM, except for the idea that Shania isn't familiar with the Ramones, that horse isn't just dead, it's a freaking skeleton by now!

― Ally (mlescaut), Monday, 21 April 2003 15:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Alex is OTM, except for the idea that Shania isn't familiar with the Ramones, that horse isn't just dead, it's a freaking skeleton by now!

To appreciate the Ramones is to embody all the joys of being a human being. Shania is, in fact, NOT a human being, but merely an evil replicant. Thus, it is IMPOSSIBLE that she is familiar with their body of work.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 21 April 2003 15:05 (twenty-two years ago)

And what evidence do we have that the average person isn't? Their taste in music?

I was admittedly being too reductive -- just like us here in the ILX hothouse (and similarly-minded folks elsewhere) in terms of caring about/studying the use of iconography and imagery in historical detail and use over time. IS that like everyone else, across age ranges, across social groups however defined? How far do we take the case?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 21 April 2003 15:08 (twenty-two years ago)

I used to know this person who thought I looked exactly like Shania, which was creepy because A) I don't B) she is made out of plastic and wire. So I think they were getting at that I am a robot. Which would actually be fucking aces, yo, then I could finally woo a German husband, since they all only like Kraftwerk.

Anyway, HER HUSBAND IS MUTT LANGE! ROBOT OR NOT I'M CERTAIN SHE'S FAMILIAR WITH THE ROCK CANON. What the hell is that marriage about anyway?

― Ally (mlescaut), Monday, 21 April 2003 15:09 (twenty-two years ago)

What the hell is ANY marriage about anyway?

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 21 April 2003 15:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Anyway, HER HUSBAND IS MUTT LANGE! ROBOT OR NOT I'M CERTAIN SHE'S FAMILIAR WITH THE ROCK CANON. What the hell is that marriage about anyway?

Yeah, `cos he's so normal, isn't he.

Don't they practice some sort've sex-free eastern philosophy or something? THEY'RE FREAKS, PEOPLE, THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 21 April 2003 15:11 (twenty-two years ago)

That's an excellent question which I am unprepared to answer, my dear Horace.

Ned: I see no reason to believe anyone on this board is any more or less capable of spotting tired pop iconography than anyone in the regular populace, simply because the reason the iconography grows tired and cliche is because everyone is familiar with it, not just the Chuck Eddys of the world.

Alex: Freaks or not, I bet they actually do listen to the Ramones.

― Ally (mlescaut), Monday, 21 April 2003 15:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Besides, like Madonna & Guy Ritchie, Shania -- like the vile succubus she is -- has drained the Mutt of his capability of rocking. He is now a Röck Eünüch, scrambling hopelessly in the void where once he was a font of metallic priapism.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 21 April 2003 15:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Shania is my evil replicant twin and we both own the same shirt, stop hating on us, you GOTH.

― Ally (mlescaut), Monday, 21 April 2003 15:14 (twenty-two years ago)

God forbid freaks listen to punk rock, Alex!

― hstencil, Monday, 21 April 2003 15:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Come up with something new, Ally. Your "you're a goth" bullets are just bouncing off me like poorly-assembled spitballs.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 21 April 2003 15:16 (twenty-two years ago)

God forbid freaks listen to punk rock, Alex!

There are freaks, Stence, and their are FREAKS, as in evil beings from an ancient civilization of fascist cyborgs who seek only to rule the solar system with an iron, eight-pronged fist of merciless doooooooom!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 21 April 2003 15:18 (twenty-two years ago)

The more you respond to them, the more it affects you, that is the law of internet insults.

You're making Shania sound cooler every time you talk about her. I mean, come on. How is an evil being from an ancient civilization of facist cyborgs with iron fists of merciless doom not the best pop star ever?

― Ally (mlescaut), Monday, 21 April 2003 15:19 (twenty-two years ago)

If only she shot lasers from her eyes.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 21 April 2003 15:20 (twenty-two years ago)

oh no! Tankpuss vs. Shania fite! oh no!

― Ally (mlescaut), Monday, 21 April 2003 15:21 (twenty-two years ago)

the reason the iconography grows tired and cliche is because everyone is familiar with it

But this is a matter of perception here, ultimately, and also one of contrast and context. I mean, look at the run of album covers she's had up until now, then suddenly this. The idea is that we're supposed to see it as New! Shocking! Different! because it seems like it could be a photocopied hoohah and has been specifically designed as same as opposed to Music's magazine gloss. Again, like with Bowie's Tin Machine deal, it's supposed to be signifying some sort of against-the-grain approach and does so by grabbing at images that are still seen as having some sort of relevance that it will be against said grain. I could name a slew of people I know offhand -- at work, away from it, friends, family -- that would see that what she's done as being 'weird,' I'm willing to bet we all could.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 21 April 2003 15:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Man, Alex, you got one helluva great imgaination.

― hstencil, Monday, 21 April 2003 15:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Don't go knocking Tin Machine, Ned.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 21 April 2003 15:23 (twenty-two years ago)

oh no! Tin Machine vs. Shania fite! oh no!

― Ally (mlescaut), Monday, 21 April 2003 15:23 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think Madonna's Che Guevara look is meant to look d.i.y. or underground or trashy.

Is it just me, or does she look more like Patty Hearst than Che Guevara? And if so, doesn't that change the context of the image a wee bit?

― Nicole (Nicole), Monday, 21 April 2003 15:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Madonna has been brainwashed into becoming British by Guy Ritchie?

― Ally (mlescaut), Monday, 21 April 2003 15:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Let's see her with the gun in front of a Union Jack.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 21 April 2003 15:28 (twenty-two years ago)

I think sporting the beret is her way of trying to evoke the "Eloise in Moscow" look, actually.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 21 April 2003 15:28 (twenty-two years ago)

http://giblip.vet.cornell.edu/halloween/2001/eloise.jpg

Came from a page called the Ciccone's Annual Party!!!!

― Ally (mlescaut), Monday, 21 April 2003 15:34 (twenty-two years ago)

If only the single were as entertaining.

― Nicole (Nicole), Monday, 21 April 2003 15:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Look, these people are expressing their "extreme points of view" too!!

http://giblip.vet.cornell.edu/halloween/2001/betsy.jpg

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 21 April 2003 15:36 (twenty-two years ago)

"SHANIA IS ONE OF US, YOU PATHETIC FOOOOOLLLLLLZZZZZZZZZZ!"

http://members.aol.com/ashieross/dkjudges.jpg

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 21 April 2003 15:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Now this thread is truly something.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 21 April 2003 15:43 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2002/20021103/sp2.jpg

HAHA Alex you have successfully made Shania the coolest person ever.

― Ally (mlescaut), Monday, 21 April 2003 15:43 (twenty-two years ago)

i dont think i ever saw/heard of Judge Fire...when did he show up? he wasnt in 'Necropolis' right?

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 21 April 2003 15:47 (twenty-two years ago)

He was always one of the original four, Stevem!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 21 April 2003 15:51 (twenty-two years ago)

what's the diff between Death and Mortis?

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 21 April 2003 15:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Shania unmasked!
http://www.therossman.com/peoples/pedro3.jpg

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 21 April 2003 15:53 (twenty-two years ago)

what's the diff between Death and Mortis?

one kills ya, the other stiffens ya.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 21 April 2003 16:04 (twenty-two years ago)

okay, cuz I always thought the stiff part of rigor mortis was rigor. Cause Mortis is latinate Death.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 21 April 2003 16:05 (twenty-two years ago)

was Judge Fire always there or was he replaced by someone else post Prog 500? i just dont remember him at all and its freaking me out

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 21 April 2003 16:17 (twenty-two years ago)

you are correct tho Horace

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 21 April 2003 16:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, but "Judge Rigor" doesn't sound as cool as "Judge Mortis".

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 21 April 2003 16:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Judge Rigor sounds more like a Judge Judy type of judge.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 21 April 2003 16:49 (twenty-two years ago)

It'd be so much better if Judge Judy was a robotic lazer shooting being.

― Ally (mlescaut), Monday, 21 April 2003 16:54 (twenty-two years ago)

wearing a Ramones t-shirt of course.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 21 April 2003 16:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Photoshop to thread!

― Ally (mlescaut), Monday, 21 April 2003 16:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Back on topic, I think Madonna is romanced by the concept of having an "extreme point of view," and dressed up her presentation to reflect that (stark, militant, aggressive, etc.), but seemed to forget to actually come up with an actualy point of view to feel "extreme" about.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 21 April 2003 17:07 (twenty-two years ago)

That's what I said, I think on this thread, I'm too lazy to look. From what I can figure her extreme point of view is either that she's neither Christian nor Jew, or it is that "nothing is what it seems" (OH SIT DOWN NELLY I KNOW THAT'S A BIG SHOCKAH), or a combination of the two. Nothing else of extremity is said in the entire song, so I have to assume it's one of the lines near the extreme point of view line. But neither are extreme; in fact they are rather shockingly mundane things to say.

― Ally (mlescaut), Monday, 21 April 2003 17:13 (twenty-two years ago)

The sentiment that "nothing is what it seems" is such a big ol' flabby cop-out, `cos it provides her a flimsy excuse to get away with wearin' military gear without a readily apparent reason. It's EMPTY!

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 21 April 2003 17:21 (twenty-two years ago)

I would like her outfit though. But on the other hand I am actively plotting the overtaking of Hoboken, New Jersey so I probably should have a uniform.

― Ally (mlescaut), Monday, 21 April 2003 17:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Why Hoboken?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 21 April 2003 17:25 (twenty-two years ago)

It's convenient. Plus everyone who lives there is drunk all the time, so they won't put up a good fight. Once I get a hold in Hoboken, I can expand my empire to such brilliant places as Elizabeth, and Wildwood.

― Ally (mlescaut), Monday, 21 April 2003 17:26 (twenty-two years ago)

is Hoboken full of hobos?

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 21 April 2003 17:28 (twenty-two years ago)

In a way.

― Ally (mlescaut), Monday, 21 April 2003 17:28 (twenty-two years ago)

"SHINE ON, ELIZABETH!

http://www.easyandquick.com/fire/pictures/al14.jpg

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 21 April 2003 17:33 (twenty-two years ago)

When I rule New Jersey, this sort of thing isn't going to happen. First I'll take New Jersey, then I take Berlin.

― Ally (mlescaut), Monday, 21 April 2003 17:34 (twenty-two years ago)

And who didn't love the Hoboken Chicken Mystery?

― Nicole (Nicole), Monday, 21 April 2003 17:48 (twenty-two years ago)

HAHAHA! Oh my god, that was what prompted my Hoboken hatred

― Ally (mlescaut), Monday, 21 April 2003 17:49 (twenty-two years ago)

The thing about Madonna is, she does all these things, these stupid publicity stunts, so people will hear her out. She's said before she didn't get in the business because she thought she could sing all too well, she got in it because she had something to say. But when it comes down to it, when people are listening, what is she saying? She's sick of famous people, or people who are materialistic? She thinks people should be more open sexually? People have said all of those things a million times before, and better.

― David Allen, Monday, 21 April 2003 18:23 (twenty-two years ago)

And who didn't love the Hoboken Chicken Mystery?

This is the thread where I ask, "The hell?"

*googles*

Never read it.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 21 April 2003 18:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Good point, David. I mean, let's scroll back, shall we? What exactly was she 'trying to say' with the "Like a Prayer" video? That racism is bad? (shocker) That getting stigmata enables you to have relations with a sexy black Jesus?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 21 April 2003 18:45 (twenty-two years ago)

I think she was trying to say "my dress can barely contain my bosom"

― James Blount (James Blount), Monday, 21 April 2003 18:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Uh, y'know, I used to be a sexually-repressed, cross-burning racist, who cared only about who was on the cover of People Magazine and how much stuff I could own.
But then I heard Madonna, and now...

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 21 April 2003 18:51 (twenty-two years ago)

That thing about the bosoms is my message too.

― Ally (mlescaut), Monday, 21 April 2003 18:53 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm now doubting every message Ally posts. Is it the real Ally or creepy Ally imposter?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 21 April 2003 18:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Ally's bosom is in my message too.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 21 April 2003 18:55 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm digging these responses...

i never imagined the thread would result in a daniel pinkwater reference. he was awesome. a little like philip dick for the ten-year-old set. you want revolutionary, read 'lizard music' or 'alan mendohlsen, the boy from mars'

i guess the main thing i wanted to get people's comments on, is, like how fucked-up is it that the record industry, who have sooooooooo much $, spend it on marketing schemes that attempt to look way low-budget & poor...'ghetto', if you will. should people who are genuinely financially down-and-out feel offended/angered/insulted/flattered? all this corporate money goes to ape the disenfranchised in superficial marketing campaigns, but it's solely about the image of being poor and broke-down; the reality always remains shunted offscreen. to the powers that be at (insert name of entertainment mega-mega-conglomerate here) real live poor human beings are so much garbage. isn't it just so fucking hip and chic to be homeless, to be a peasant, to live hand-to-mouth, to be forced to take up a genuinely revolutionary stance because you live under some third-world facist plutocracy, and it's truly a life or death issue?

it reminds me of a recent interview i read with madonna where she says that her whole career she was deluded and thought that the most important thing in life was fame and riches...and then it turned out to be a bust. i don't doubt that there's tons of truth in this notion, but it always sounds slightly suspect coming from someone who is still a millionaire. i mean, it's not like she's decided to abdicate her lavish lifestyle, and give the bulk of her $ to the needy.

― Dallas Yertle (Dallas Yertle), Tuesday, 22 April 2003 00:15 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, that's the thing I've always wondered about rock/pop stars who claim to be about the message or speak for/to The People and constantly constantly constantly say that they're not in it for the money.

Oh yeah, Bono? Then quit. Retire. You have a bazillion dollars and you yourself are always on and on about how destructive greed is. So quit. Walk away. Go do something else. Go put your able body to good use.
Of course, at this point for Superstars like B & M, it's more about ego satisfaction than money money money. But hey, even Michael Jackson can go broke.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 22 April 2003 02:46 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think Bono's actually on about 'greed' or anything that broad - he has very specific political goals he wants met (third world debt forgiveness), and he's been very smart to not let his preaching creep into 'capitalism/the west/republicans are bad' territory which might make him feel good but won't help him achieve his goals. I'm not gonna argue the man doesn't have an ego, or that 'saving the world' doesn't feed into it, but he's definitely someone who's focused on achieving goals beyond speaking his mind.

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 22 April 2003 02:55 (twenty-two years ago)

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