Are all 'experimental' bands 'middle class'?

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Been reading Class, etc. pt. 4 - Did post-rock "kill" indie? (Also, did it realign the "rhythmic impulse" towards an alternative to funk-based rhythms?) and i thought perhaps this deserved a seperate thread. Radiohead are always maligned for being middle class while Oasis praised for being working class. I seem to remember Noel Gallagher abusing Blur & Radiohead(and Sonic Youth) for being art skool wankers with screwdrivers.
In this day and age are there any 'experimental' or 'arty' working class bands?
I know Joy Division were a good example of a bygone 'post punk' age when ones class didnt seem to matter, but has it changed now? If so did Punk rock break down any barriers in the long run?

I dont want this to be a working class vs middle class thread. Im just hoping that it can be proved that Arty or Experimental bands arent all middle class and that you dont have to be working class to be 'Authentic'. I would hope ILM is somewhere where this can be discussed rationally.

― Brett Walton, Wednesday, 23 April 2003 00:58 (twenty-two years ago)

some of them are 'upper class'

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 01:02 (twenty-two years ago)

um, the entirety of Providence, Rhode Island to thread.

― hstencil, Wednesday, 23 April 2003 01:02 (twenty-two years ago)

I just fail to see what 'class' has to do with music. It may be simplistic but good music is good music whoever its made by IMO.
I don't think 'class' should matter.

― Brett Walton, Wednesday, 23 April 2003 01:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Really? I think class (and race and gender and sexuality and religion and blah blah blah) inform everything we read or listen to or write or record or talk about. I can't imagine a situation where these subjects aren't salient.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 01:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, to frame the question another way, how does class or perceptions of class influence the kind of music you choose to make?

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 01:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Test Department weren't middle class were they? Or were they? Throbbing Gristle? I think they were art students?

Kid 606 and the whole Wire crew are as middle class as you can get without becoming a notional perfect average, of use only to theoretical mathematicians. And you and I, dear reader, are also middle class. That's why we're chattering.

I think it's Bill Drummond who said that all great pop music in England came from the tower blocks and the estates (the estates, not The States, you idiot).

Only the well heeled have the security to be able to make music that doesn't sell. We can also be music critics.

Incidentally, why are all English music critics called Colin or Simon? Another thread, perhaps.

― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 01:16 (twenty-two years ago)

I just fail to see what 'class' has to do with music. huh? bwalton66 & bwalton69?

-I don't think Joy Division were arty even if they were working class??

but Oasis are what then? Working class wankers .. like they are bigger tossers / egocentric wankers than any of the "arty" crowd. - but thats just cause they don't get noo respect for being true artists.

― Savin All My Love 4 u (Savin 4ll my (heart) 4u), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 01:17 (twenty-two years ago)

see also : hip hop / graffiti vs "true" art ie (art sound turntablism / fine arts. )

grafitti dont get no respect casuse its basically crap.
- and is seldom framed within a larger historical perspective of the artworld.

― Savin All My Love 4 u (Savin 4ll my (heart) 4u), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 01:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Oasis being wankers is to do with them being people. Not their class.
Being a wanker isnt exclusive to any class.
As for email , i just dont want my inbox flooded. ok? I dont know how to stop replies as i'm fairly new here. Perhaps i should've introduced myself. Is there any etiquette i should be following?

― Brett Walton, Wednesday, 23 April 2003 01:24 (twenty-two years ago)

What do the Ex qualify as?

― Nick Mirov (nick), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 01:35 (twenty-two years ago)

no you're fine Bret no worries

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 01:39 (twenty-two years ago)

More importantly, what does Sun Ra qualify as?

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 01:48 (twenty-two years ago)

he's a Blount - beleedat!

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 01:55 (twenty-two years ago)

i was curious as to the 66 vs 69 change.

all the aqrty types i know are distinctly middle class or above.

― Savin All My Love 4 u (Savin 4ll my (heart) 4u), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 01:58 (twenty-two years ago)

what percentage of the populations of the musicmaking countries where "experimental" even exists are middle class anyway? can we break this down to lower and upper middle class? and middle-middle class? and shop owners?

― gaz (gaz), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 02:02 (twenty-two years ago)

If the bands who make 'experimental' 'post-rock' or any music thats perceived as "WIRE" music are middle class, Are the fans of these bands middle class too?
I'm not middle class but i enjoy all forms of music. Even at Dundee university there was as many people from working class backgrounds as middle class, but it didnt effect anyones choice in music at all. Same with those who were in bands.
Maybe students get stereotyped or perhaps its geographical. Don't Mogwai boast about growing up in rough council estates? Judging by post-rock stereotypes i wouldve expected them to be public schoolboys.

― Brett Walton, Wednesday, 23 April 2003 03:29 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think that class necessarily dictates whether musicians go the arty/experimental route. But certainly those who move in that direction are less likely to be embraced by the working class in general, even if they come from that same background -- mostly because the working class as a whole tends to devalue art that is obtuse or complex. Oasis is seen as a "working-class" band not because of the Gallaghers' actual economic background, but because their *image* is a populist one: a couple of guys from Manchester writing good, old-fashioned pop songs.

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 03:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Or it could be that you get rewarded for being a pompous wanker when you're middle class. I know I did.

― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 03:57 (twenty-two years ago)

The Fall and Wiley Kat to thread. And The Ex don't qualify at all in my book

also colin's last post r001z my sk001

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 04:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Brett is just in denial that he is a middle class art music loving pansy boy.
- and what exaclty did you study at Dundee? something working class like say Engineering?

― Savin All My Love 4 u (Savin 4ll my (heart) 4u), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 05:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Why the heck don't the Ex qualify Sterling?

I just discovered this thread after busying myself w/ the other one; I was about to say they are THE band to look to here.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 05:55 (twenty-two years ago)

"rap music" to thread?

I think your average experimental band is normally middle-class but quickly gets working-class by spending too much time and money in studios trying to "break boundaries" and "pushing the limits", and not caring about a job and about money in general. They eat rice and drink instant coffee in the tiny flat they're sharing (they took it in order to create a greater creative emulation).

― Etienne Menu (Etienne), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 06:44 (twenty-two years ago)

With enough cocain in his brain, even the most uneducated working class lad may become "experimental".

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 08:21 (twenty-two years ago)

I'd say LSD. Pink Floyd? The Beatles?

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 08:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Isn't the point of this to pick current examples?

Also, surely the answer is any band which self-describes as "experimental" is surely middle-class, however actually being experimental is pretty much class-independent...

― Jacob (Jacob), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 10:02 (twenty-two years ago)

I found Disco Inferno fascinating at the time because they so clearly hadn't come out of the same Home Counties middle class scenes as the shoegazers - long before it was fashionable to do so, they wore Arsenal shirts on stage, which I found extremely loveable. And maybe this manifested itself in their music - it was a much more bloody-minded and scruffy beauty than the prevalent amniotic sirensong of the time.

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 10:12 (twenty-two years ago)

The Fall/ Public Image Limited/ John Cale - to name but three examples.

This, of course, depends on how you define "experimental music" as well as "middle class". Beefheart and Zappa were hardly "middle class" either, come to think of it.

― Dadaismus, Wednesday, 23 April 2003 12:51 (twenty-two years ago)

And what about the late 70's no-wave movement in new york, weren't most of them "working class" punks wanting to change the sound of punk(as magnificently as the did)?

― rex jr., Wednesday, 23 April 2003 13:07 (twenty-two years ago)

can you be working class if you're not actually working?

― hstencil, Wednesday, 23 April 2003 13:12 (twenty-two years ago)

I've run into uncountable numbers of experimental, noisy, nontraditional bands and musicians who weren't middle- or upper-class (or at least, how I perceive those designations to manifest themselves), but a much higher proportion of those bands were in smaller cities or non-urban areas in general -- at least, they tended to be from less "cosmopolitan" areas. Providence (mentioned by hstencil above) is a great example, along w/ Charlottesville VA, Winston-Salem NC, Pittsburgh (although that's a pretty big city, I know). I'm not sure what this means, it's just been my experience over 5 years of steady music-related traveling.

― Hurlothrumbo (hurlothrumbo), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 13:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Was no-wave really a working class movement? Not trying to be belligerent, I just had no idea that it was identified that way.

― Hurlothrumbo (hurlothrumbo), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 13:14 (twenty-two years ago)

I thot it was more of an urban squatter/ne'er do well movement.

― hstencil, Wednesday, 23 April 2003 13:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Was no-wave really a working class movement?
I'm not realy shur, but its true concerning Lydia Lunch.

― rexJr., Wednesday, 23 April 2003 13:22 (twenty-two years ago)

I believe that Jim O'Rourke grew up pretty damn poor. Some of those so-called "post-rockers" grew up much closer to where I grew up (South side) than where people might guess. I would imagine that creative freedom is very attractive to a lot of kids from working-class or lower-class backgrounds.

― Kerry (dymaxia), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 13:24 (twenty-two years ago)

"I thot it was more of an urban squatter/ne'er do well movement."

My impression, too -- "class" is a little bit undefined, "middle class" more so, and I think lines do start to blur dramatically when people choose to opt out of the destiny/expectations placed on them by their upbrining. That's where it gets really tough to classify (no pun meant there) no wave and similar urban "ne'er do well" artists and musicians as middle class or not.

Folks have said quite a bit about class mobility in America (myth or reality, it's still an issue), and Jody (or is it Jody Beth? sorry, I'm new here) specifically and insightfully noted that opting out is something one runs into -- I would say just as much w/late-70's LES no wave as with folks nowadays -- and it makes it hard to label individual musicians as members of a social class. Is it how you were born, or how you live? Is the answer to that different in America than in societies descended from non-democratic cultures?

― Hurlothrumbo (hurlothrumbo), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 13:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Sorry for the slight nick changes, i keep forgetting that i'v connected mine to make it more searchable.(ya know, more than 3 letters).

― rexJr., Wednesday, 23 April 2003 13:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Opting out is a grand American tradition, stretching back at least to the 1950s, or maybe even the frontier days if you wanna look at it that way.

― hstencil, Wednesday, 23 April 2003 13:27 (twenty-two years ago)

No doubt, and it's not just American. But I wonder if it means anything different here given our traditions/legends of egalitarianism and class mobility? Or is opting out only a choice available to those who start from a position where they're not desperate for survival, or trapped into a self-perpetuating cycle that locks them into a working class life?

― Hurlothrumbo (hurlothrumbo), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 13:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, shit, sorry -- Jody's comment that I referred to is actually from the "What the hell does class have to do with anything?" thread.

― Hurlothrumbo (hurlothrumbo), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 13:37 (twenty-two years ago)

and so what if some of them are?

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 15:24 (twenty-two years ago)

they wore Arsenal shirts on stage, which I found extremely loveable

The drummer was the fanatic in particular, wasn't he? I seem to remember that being talked about in interviews with a sort of 'gosh, who'd expect' air.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 15:47 (twenty-two years ago)

arsenal shirts :(

― jel -- (jel), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 16:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Pere Ubu?

― buttch (Oops), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 16:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Why the heck don't the Ex qualify Sterling?

Coz they suck?

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 17:59 (twenty-two years ago)

It's official: Sterling is insane.

― hstencil, Wednesday, 23 April 2003 18:06 (twenty-two years ago)

the ex is like this awful political rock band aren't they? I mistakenly bought one of their CDs once, "starters/alternators".

― jel -- (jel), Wednesday, 23 April 2003 18:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Most of the 'experimental' musicians I've met personally were working class but perhaps that's because I don't know many middles class people. But aren't artists 'bohemians' - you know, a different class? That's why they become artists, so they can hang around with rich people.

― bedroom, Thursday, 24 April 2003 04:09 (twenty-two years ago)

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