Why does mainstream rock suck, but mainsteam hip hop is good?

Message Bookmarked

Bookmark Removed

I'm not sure I even feel this way, but I know people here do, and I'd like to hear it discussed.

― David Allen, Thursday, 24 April 2003 04:52 (twenty-two years ago)

they both suck pretty bad right now

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 24 April 2003 04:56 (twenty-two years ago)

so this is why Radiohead and the White Stripes never get discussed and meanwhile there's a million Cam'ron threads

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 04:57 (twenty-two years ago)

mainstream hiphop is in a holding pattern, as the timbaland typerwriter-fonk sound has lasted longer as a "paradigm sound" than perhaps any previous (longer than chic-disco tracks, longer than out of sync boomin drum machines, longer than james brown samples, longer than puffy karaoke) and no one is sure whither next until someone comes outta nowhere (like tim did) to push it somewhere else

mainstream rock is - as i think our douglas wolk once said - ceaseless altamont

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 24 April 2003 04:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Isn't the Neptunes sound the new thing? Granted, I don't know anyone else DOING the Neptunes sound, but Neptunes are producing everything ever.

― David Allen, Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:02 (twenty-two years ago)

one came from the other

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:03 (twenty-two years ago)

the indie-class threads hang over my head whenever i try to talk about this stuff. my analysis is a broken bicycle.

i'll clear off and go think about reverb instead.
all these MACRO threads hurt.

― gabriel (gabe), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:05 (twenty-two years ago)

wht does ceaseless altamont mean? everybody's getting roughed up by the angels?

― ron (ron), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Ok, admit it. You all kinda like 50 Cent. 'Cause I know I do.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:07 (twenty-two years ago)

i like 50 cent. but i cant help shake the feeling that liking 50 cent now is liking foghat then.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:08 (twenty-two years ago)

because it is.

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:09 (twenty-two years ago)

And not all mainstream rock sucks, at least not completely. See: QOTSA.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:09 (twenty-two years ago)

No, Jess, that gives 50 Cent too much credit.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:10 (twenty-two years ago)

it's insane that timba's dominated for SEVEN YEARS now, although stagnation's creeping in slightly (to my ears at least), 'sorry' to anyone who actually thinks "work it" is missy's best (or even fifth best) single, and the lil kim track all over radio right now is great but lil kim seems superfluous on it - surely a crime. Then again I thought the same thing after "Try Again" and "Get Ur Freak On" and "Oops! Oh My" are post that (plus "More Than A Woman" which may not be as ohmigod but still has a hold on my heart) so who knows. The Neptunes are batting .700 but what else is new (plus they've never really, er, shifted the paradigm).

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:10 (twenty-two years ago)

"In Da Club"'s great but I'm not sure how different it would sound if it had come out in 1995 (school me somebody).

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Foghat. Ha.

But doesn't hip-hop invite you to embrace its disposability? More than rock ever did?

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:11 (twenty-two years ago)

please not more than rock EVER did (are you forgetting that something like 9000 "Annie" songs came out in 195whatever?)

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:13 (twenty-two years ago)

dre is still paterfamilias in a very scary way

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:13 (twenty-two years ago)

i mean, there's nothing in eve's "satisfaction" - at least without listening to the background with some acid squiggle or some aucourant signifier - that sez it couldn't have come out in 95 and it's my fave hiphop single of this year

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:14 (twenty-two years ago)

I agree w/James, the Neps just sorta snuck in from below and became the center.

Timbafunk is hardly stale to me--and hey, who was complaining when Motown or the Beatles ruled for 8-10 years at a time?--but there is something of a sense of diminishing returns here. also, Motown had Sly and JB kicking them in the ass every so often, making them reshape themselves a bit; the Beatles had, hmmm, maybe Cream and Hendrix (note the "heavier" sound of the White Album vs. Sgt. Pepper's airiness). doesn't seem like many folks are doing this to Tim or the 'Tunes. and obviously Dre gets staler and staler but no one says so.

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:14 (twenty-two years ago)

'obviously'

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:14 (twenty-two years ago)

it's obvious to me, at least. come on--is anyone saying his recent stuff is up to N.W.A or even the first Eminem record?

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:16 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't mean that no rock was ever disposable. I wondering about something possibly inherent in the genre of hip-hop. Hip-hop, remember, still lacks anything close to the "canon" that rock has.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:16 (twenty-two years ago)

motown also had a lot of outside things kicking them in the ass too, directly or not: like dylan, psychedlia, all this popular pressure from outside the funk'n'soul borderlands which seems to have been lost (?) when the producers can do all this pick'n'mix themselves from any extant musical culture (?)

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Haha, Dre's got a job, he's bonafide!

― Dan I. (Dan I.), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Cuz MTV sex so.

― Cub, Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Hip-hop's considerably younger, and there still isn't a Jann Wenner type stateside or any major English hiphop press to do the requisite canon of the month (when did the '100 best albums of all time' thing really get underway anyhow? I know Rolling Stone went canoncrazy in the late 80s - best albums one year, singles the next, etc. Was the Dave Marsh thing the real big kickoff? the Xgau lists in the back of the decade guides? some help here Matos)

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:19 (twenty-two years ago)

l i n k i n p a r k

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:20 (twenty-two years ago)

and jess is right - motown 63 sounds very different from motown 70 (not to mention the beatles)

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:21 (twenty-two years ago)

trife!

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:22 (twenty-two years ago)

linkin park is one-way dialogue

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah the journalists had something to do with it. The whole "back in the day recommended" phenomenon, let's call it. But will any such cannon EVER stick to hip-hop, because of changing social circumstances, changes in the way music criticism is dissiminated (the internet), or something cut-and-paste and therefore disposable about the genre itself? Or does its cut-and-pastiness only open it up more to "timeless" status? Is that fact that that you can't immediately hear the difference between 1995 and now indicative of anything?

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:24 (twenty-two years ago)

timbaland could not have existed in 1995

dre can still exist in 2002

maybe this means hiphop is getting more inclusive or the cycles are taking longer to die out

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Kenan, if anything hip-hop's received wisdom (Tupac and/or Rakim as greatest MC ever period, Dre as greatest producer ever period) is at least as ironclad as rock's canon, if not more so. the Ego Trip book is more idiosyncratic than that received-wisdom, which is one reason to treasure it.

I'm not arguing w/Jess; we're basically saying the same thing. Motown/Beatles progressed but stayed on top, whereas Tim and Tunes haven't moved too much. not to quibble too much but I'd argue "outside" means Sly/JB too, especially structurally.

canonization probably began w/Melody Maker '76, Gambaccini '77, and I think Stone did something similar before '87 though maybe not.

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:26 (twenty-two years ago)

and the late 90s dirty south cmm/no limit thug melancholia sound did more for current rap than crit-friendly tim/neps, fuck 'weird' auteurism

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:28 (twenty-two years ago)

sly stone is pretty much THE demarcation line between early and later motown

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:29 (twenty-two years ago)

probably the latter, Jess

cmm/no limit is plenty weird and auteurist, opie trife

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Hip hops received wisdom is not all that well received, though. Couldn't Nas just as easily be the greatest MC ever?

Maybe this is all a function of its youthfulness as a genre.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:30 (twenty-two years ago)

please trife, we LIVE in the south and I can go an hour on v103 or even the beat hearing 80% tim or neptune productions (with freaknasty comprising the other 20%)

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:31 (twenty-two years ago)

mannie fresh is third in line for "white rockcrit canonization" for sure

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:31 (twenty-two years ago)

where is sterling?

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:31 (twenty-two years ago)

listening to the shipping news and rodan

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:32 (twenty-two years ago)

hey, you started that thread

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:33 (twenty-two years ago)

thanks jb!! check it, 2real4flagpole...

V/A - BIKER BOYZ OST

Tracks two through four are the crucial ones; Swizz Beatz, Ja Rule, and Metallica's jawdropping "We Did It Again", POD gleefully remixed into cartoonish robot build-rock by Crystal Method, The Neptunes taking vital steps against their own music-crit canonization by "slumming" with Papa Roach (fuck yes!). By now Linkin Park have literally saved music, they aren't on this but their future-of-pop style fills the thing; check how Swizz brings some serious Afrika Bambaataa jacking Kraftwerk shit with all these spacey "Crawling"-style keyboard intros!! The rest awkwardly tries to implement rock's new figment of hiphop as a moody goth-R'n'B slow jam instead of ultramale Xzibit and MOP growl, some works (Mos' surprisingly gorgeous "Kalifornia"), some doesn't (die Non Phixion!!) but the end result just feels sadly inconsequential considering it could've been THE rap-rock statement, JUDGEMENT NIGHT '03!! - EP

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:33 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, no record reviews this week either, wtf

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:34 (twenty-two years ago)

cool review, EP.

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:35 (twenty-two years ago)

haha - I bet you the music editor over there doesn't know who the Neptunes or Swizz Beatz are (I ain't kidding here folx)

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:36 (twenty-two years ago)

"white rockcrit canonization"

But that's kind of what I'm asking. No such whiteness will ever carry any weight with hip-hop. If you accept the premise (and I do) that rock journalists had everything to do with canonizing that music, along with the peculiar timing of FM radio, what is or could ever be the hip-hop equivalent of that? I see lots of arguments in hip hop. Lots of dissenting opinions. Lots of people referring not to magazines for informed opinions, but to message boards.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:38 (twenty-two years ago)

when crits go for producers its tim and neps, even s reynolds forgot about mannie once shake ya ass came out!! and never love for no limit, they were the bad boy of the south (not from houston so fuck rapalot)

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:39 (twenty-two years ago)

[real ans as to where i am: writing a piece on bhangra. like i said hip-hop is in the beatles go to india phase]

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 24 April 2003 05:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Skipping 108 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

i know its awfully early in the argument to play this card but GEIR DO YOU DANCE EVER

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 07:12 (twenty-two years ago)

it's never too early!

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 24 April 2003 07:26 (twenty-two years ago)

(everyone's just staring at their screens)

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 07:28 (twenty-two years ago)

awww... it's "no mas" all over again

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 07:37 (twenty-two years ago)

james he DOESNT MAKE ANY SENSE

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 07:37 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah I know. we all know. it's kinda like trying to teach your dog how to yo-yo: at some point you just gotta give up.

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 07:39 (twenty-two years ago)

that last post is almost as corny as that nas song.

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 07:41 (twenty-two years ago)

haha

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 07:41 (twenty-two years ago)

the worst thing about any nas record is nas, his style works on the bleak i need a new nigga for this cloud to follow tracks when you can see the pain in his eyes but when theres a bunch of cute lil seeds all around you in the video jesus dude cant you smile or something

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 07:49 (twenty-two years ago)

. they also have natural rhythm!!!
There's no such thing as natural rhythm.

― nathalie (nathalie), Thursday, 24 April 2003 07:53 (twenty-two years ago)

england in not getting the point shockah

heh - in the wuog booth there is (or was) a picture of the stillmatic cover with 'pigeons make nas sad' scrawled on it

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 24 April 2003 07:54 (twenty-two years ago)

I guess someone else has made this point, but, who says mainstream rock sucks? It's just going through a phase - just like mainstream hip-hop did with Cypress Hill. Eminem's choice of guitar solo-ists is dire, though - does anyone else think this or are they actually brilliant, and I just don't get it?

― bedroom, Thursday, 24 April 2003 07:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Soloist doesn't need a '-', does it?

― bedroom, Thursday, 24 April 2003 07:58 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah wuog i remember when they rocked ether and got urself a gun like hourly there...

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 07:59 (twenty-two years ago)

muggs...he has rock band now

― trife (simon_tr), Thursday, 24 April 2003 07:59 (twenty-two years ago)

(everyone's just staring at their screens)

You can say that again. It's Trife vs Geir - the final battle that will bring down ILM forever.

This thread is beautiful. The complete and utter lack of common ground and mutual understanding between them is the best bit.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 24 April 2003 08:58 (twenty-two years ago)

hahahahaha. I'd love to know Geir's reasoning behind "damage that James Brown and Sly Stone did to "black" music."
I got weird looks off my boss for suddenly bursting out laughing while i'm supposed to be working.
Sly Stone must be one of the best things to happen to ALL music.

― Winston, Thursday, 24 April 2003 10:17 (twenty-two years ago)

James Brown and Sly Stone suddenly stopped the development towards more and more melodic and harmonic music.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Thursday, 24 April 2003 12:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Thank fucking GOD.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Thursday, 24 April 2003 12:30 (twenty-two years ago)

(btw, once you've performed music by James Brown or Sly Stone, it's EXTREMELY hard to claim that it's not melodically/harmonically complex. It's just way too patient for some people.)

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Thursday, 24 April 2003 12:33 (twenty-two years ago)

you guys are crazy, R&B is fucking awesome right now. I realized recently that for the first time that I can remember, I'm waiting through most of the rap and rap-sing tracks on the radio to get to the straight rnb....Lil Mo "4Ever" has the most incredible beat, the new Monica is great, R. Kelly has been all over the damn place, "Laundromat" and the orig. "Ignition" especially, plus Just Justin. sure, there's still the usual share of horrible windy ballad hits, and rappers doing r&b tracks is possibly at its worst yet. but goddamn, so far this year has been killer for straight up R&B jams.

― Al (sitcom), Thursday, 24 April 2003 13:20 (twenty-two years ago)

I realized recently that for the first time that I can remember, I'm waiting through most of the rap and rap-sing tracks on the radio to get to the straight rnb....

Looks like you listen to the wrong kind of radio station if rap and R&B is all they play

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Thursday, 24 April 2003 13:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Geir, I kiss you.

― Al (sitcom), Thursday, 24 April 2003 13:44 (twenty-two years ago)

never liked contemporary r+b, but some of those Jaheim tracks are nice.

― autovac (autovac), Thursday, 24 April 2003 16:59 (twenty-two years ago)

"mainstream hiphop is in a holding pattern, as the timbaland typerwriter-fonk sound has lasted longer as a "paradigm sound" than perhaps any previous (longer than chic-disco tracks, longer than out of sync boomin drum machines, longer than james brown samples, longer than puffy karaoke) and no one is sure whither next until someone comes outta nowhere (like tim did) to push it somewhere else"

this is an interesting point, but I'm not sure that I buy it. Tim is definitely hugely influential still, but the wave of beat-biters copping his original triplet-heavy sound is long gone (as are those triplets), and I think that once a producer becomes that big of a name, it's as much about the brand as it is about the sound. everyone wants a Neptunes beat, not a beat that's just as good but by a no-name. so while other producers may be taking their cues from them to an extent, I think there's a lot more variety than you're giving credit for. as busy as both Tim and the Neptunes are, there are only so many hits by them on the radio at any given time, and most of the rest of the beats you hear aren't even trying anything similiar (although it bears mentioned that both of them have, to some extent, been trying to do anything but their 'typical' sound for the past couple years).

plus I could argue that a few 'new' sounds have taken over to various extents over the past few years, esp. the Roc-a-fella style sped-up-soul-sample hooks. which is a fun little trick, but I can see it getting old before long, and i hope that Just Blaze and Kanye West have the good sense to jump ship on that idea before it does, because i think they both make great beats, and whether either will reach Neptunes level ubiquity remains to be seen, but i think they've both already surpassed them in quality.

― Al (sitcom), Thursday, 24 April 2003 16:59 (twenty-two years ago)

You know looking at the top hip hop chart and the top rock chart, I notice myself thinking that the hip hop is, for the most part, just kinda boring and only really bad as compared to other hip hop. The rock, however, is so amazingly shitty I want to punch a hole through my computer screen.

― David Allen, Thursday, 24 April 2003 17:19 (twenty-two years ago)

And no, that Linkin Park song is NOT good.

― David Allen, Thursday, 24 April 2003 17:19 (twenty-two years ago)

It's their best yet, but the rapping still doesn't work.

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Thursday, 24 April 2003 22:25 (twenty-two years ago)

two years pass...

never enjoyed the damage that James Brown and Sly Stone did to "black" music.

I don't know what to say.

― Last Of The Famous International Pfunkboys (Kerr), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 01:00 (twenty years ago)

geir is the gift that keeps on giving

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 01:06 (twenty years ago)

http://www.thepowerteam.com/graphics/New_PT/WeightsNails.jpg

― Rockist_Scientist (RSLaRue), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 01:07 (twenty years ago)

I don't know what to say.

hello, you must be new here.

― deej.. (deej..), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 01:21 (twenty years ago)

Just Say Geir

― joseph cotten (joseph cotten), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 03:12 (twenty years ago)

I'm not. After the years I still am speechless at that.

― Last Of The Famous International Pfunkboys (Kerr), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 03:22 (twenty years ago)

Alternate question: Why do mainstrean rock and hip-hop suck, but mainstream British chart pop featuring female vocalists (Kylie, Girls Aloud, Rachel Stevens) is good?

― John Hunter, Tuesday, 11 October 2005 04:12 (twenty years ago)

my this was a good thread. and the Geir drop-in was just so perfectly timed to set the thing all haywire and shit.

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 05:56 (twenty years ago)

Alternate question: Why do mainstrean rock and hip-hop suck, but mainstream British chart pop featuring female vocalists (Kylie, Girls Aloud, Rachel Stevens) is good?

Because it's girls, d'oh! Music crits are mostly guys, and they need something drool for too. So they have to come up with elaborate theories why girl pop is somehow acceptable whereas boy pop isn't.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 07:57 (twenty years ago)

haha

― Last Of The Famous International Pfunkboys (Kerr), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 10:06 (twenty years ago)

All I can say about the original thread is thank god Al showed up, one would think no one hear listens to anything besides Tim and Neptunes beats in rap music.

― deej.. (deej..), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 13:56 (twenty years ago)

Actually apologies to trife, he pointed that out first.

― deej.. (deej..), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 13:56 (twenty years ago)

only indie rock fuxors/non hip hop heads think mainstream hip hop is SO SO SO good

― okok, Tuesday, 11 October 2005 14:04 (twenty years ago)

so this is why Radiohead and the White Stripes never get discussed and meanwhile there's a million Cam'ron threads

This still makes me smile.

― The Ghost of Black Elegance (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 14:40 (twenty years ago)

Me too.

― Last Of The Famous International Pfunkboys (Kerr), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 21:46 (twenty years ago)

pfork gave a negative review to the (great) new busta single. So much for indie kids loving mainstream rap.

― deej.. (deej..), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 22:13 (twenty years ago)

Obv that isnt the only contributing factor, pfork seems to give lots of negative reviews to perfectly good rap singles.

― deej.. (deej..), Tuesday, 11 October 2005 22:17 (twenty years ago)

pitchfork in negative-review shockah!

― marc h. (marc h.), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 00:39 (twenty years ago)

only indie rock fuxors/non hip hop heads think mainstream hip hop is SO SO SO good
-- okok (kokok...), October 11th, 2005.

vs.

they both suck pretty bad right now
-- jess (dubplatestyl...), April 23rd, 2003.

(note dates)

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 01:02 (twenty years ago)

...not that jess was listening to more than neptunes and timbaland at that time ;)

― deej.. (deej..), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 03:23 (twenty years ago)

i'm actually not sure what i was saying there. Or what matos was saying, for that matter.

― deej.. (deej..), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 03:59 (twenty years ago)

I just found the juxtaposition amusing

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 04:26 (twenty years ago)

You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.