Taking Sides: Van Halen vs. Hair-Metal

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Early Van Halen all beery athleticism and sunshine, sort of a Bikini Beach sprawl. Hair-metal came along edgier and darker and more androgynous and "cooler," really: all that leather -- they only came out at night and wouldn't have been caught dead in shorts. Like the high-school archetypes, Van Halen's hearty All-American masculinity grew up into a sort of boring guy in a minivan; hair-metal just burned out and fell apart and embarrassed itself. ("The girls may have loved you when you were 17, son, but what did you do with your life?")

I'm curious partly about the music, but actually more about these two different images and approaches. Cause at the time L.A. Guns and RATT seemed just cooler -- punker! -- than Van Halen, but in retrospect early Van Halen is just so charming and engaging and sort of wonderfully wholesome.

― nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 24 April 2003 16:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Diamond Dave trumps Hair-Metal even though he's losing HIS hair.

― Charles McCain (Charles McCain), Thursday, 24 April 2003 16:30 (twenty-two years ago)

I like the Scorpions.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Thursday, 24 April 2003 16:33 (twenty-two years ago)

(Scorpions = the Euro Van Halen, no?)

― nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 24 April 2003 16:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Hmm, do you see Klaus Meine as a DLR figure?

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Thursday, 24 April 2003 16:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Maybe they're the EuroTriumph?

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Thursday, 24 April 2003 16:46 (twenty-two years ago)

(Actually, I think I'm just putting you on the Van Halen side because in my personal cosmology of this question Van Halen = G.I. Joe and hair-metal = Cobra. And the Scorpions would totally side with G.I. Joe, no question.)

― nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 24 April 2003 16:50 (twenty-two years ago)

More interesting question: who had a greater impact on 80's metal guitar style - Van Halen with his hammer-ons and pyrotechnics, or the Schenker brothers with their flowing melodocism?

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Thursday, 24 April 2003 16:54 (twenty-two years ago)

I could actually relate to the original question perfectly if "Van Halen" was replaced with "Bon Jovi".

(And Mr D, do you have something against Rik Emmett?)

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Thursday, 24 April 2003 16:59 (twenty-two years ago)

I wouldn't call myself the worlds biggest Triumph fan, no. Even as a child of the 80's, growing up being into all manner of metal bands, their music never connected with me for some reason. I loved the Scorps though.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Thursday, 24 April 2003 17:09 (twenty-two years ago)

The Schenker/Roth (Uli, not Dave)/Blackmore axis had more influence on British and "serious" metal, Eddie + Johnny Thunders (by way of Ace Frehley) probably explains american hair metal better. At this point though, pyrotechnic guitar playing seems like such a vestigial part of 80's metal (even compared to hair/wardrobe or gated drums!). Who were the great hair metal guitar players? They all sound the same.

― Kris (aqueduct), Thursday, 24 April 2003 17:19 (twenty-two years ago)

George Lynch from Dokken is the one that everybody used to go ga-ga over but he never did much for me. Uhh... you're right they all sound the same. It's so funny too because the whole presentation of these bands was like "worship the guitar player! Listen to these fast runs! Wow!" I heard some old Quiet Riot stuff a few months ago and I was shocked - shocked I tell you! - at how bad and rundimentary Carlos Cavazo sounds.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Thursday, 24 April 2003 17:26 (twenty-two years ago)

The greatest LA metal guitarist is/was Michael Angelo of Nitro, w/out oa doubt. OFR.

― Hurlothrumbo (hurlothrumbo), Thursday, 24 April 2003 17:29 (twenty-two years ago)

I guess John Sykes would be another guy that "Guitar Player" readers thought was the shit.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Thursday, 24 April 2003 17:29 (twenty-two years ago)

For Nitro alone, hair metal will always rule, although HWDWS might be the most disappointing second album I know of by a band.

― Hurlothrumbo (hurlothrumbo), Thursday, 24 April 2003 17:31 (twenty-two years ago)

OT, but anybody want to hear my Journey cover? Email me and I'll send you a CD. It's "Lovin' Touchin' Squeezin'" btw

― dave q, Thursday, 24 April 2003 17:35 (twenty-two years ago)

That's my favorite ever Perry performance.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Thursday, 24 April 2003 17:42 (twenty-two years ago)

The great guitar players of the 80's were mostly in thrash, seems to me. Especially the duo attacks from bands like Exodus and Slayer and Megadeth, which obviously has a lot more to do with 70's eurometal than Van Halen.

― Kris (aqueduct), Thursday, 24 April 2003 17:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Also it's the whitest ever use of "Mannish Boy".

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Thursday, 24 April 2003 17:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Van Halen had higher aspirations than the Ratts and Faster Pussycats they inspired, hence their need to shed the sartorial trappings of Heavy Metal (no black leather nor spikes nor bondage gear in their wardrobe after the first album), a move which probably made them a wee bit more accesible to the average layperson put off by the otherwise arguably "punky" Road Warrior shenanigans of the L.A. metal scene (a style that owes more to Kiss than Punk Rock, I'd wager).

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 24 April 2003 17:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Kerry King is pretty much the best guitar player ever though, isn't he?

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Thursday, 24 April 2003 17:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Kerry King is the Peter Brotzmann of metal.

― Kris (aqueduct), Thursday, 24 April 2003 17:49 (twenty-two years ago)

By dressing a bit more like "adults" (well, Alex, Eddie and Michael, anyway), Van Halen severed immediate ties to a very indentifiable (and, summarily, DATE-able) scene. By transcending the genre, they don't go down with the ship when said genre becomes passe.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 24 April 2003 17:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Sundar, Bon Jovi are G.I. Joe x 2, feel free to fold them in with the original question. (Please extend the G.I. Joe vs. Cobra metaphor as far as you can, I really like it.)

― nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 24 April 2003 17:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Trey Azagthoth ate Kerry King for brunch.

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Thursday, 24 April 2003 18:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Van Halen were great when David Lee Roth was their singer, because he was fun and avoided most of the metal cliches. After that, they became hair metal.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Thursday, 24 April 2003 20:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Hmm....well, while I'd never defend Hagar-era Van Halen, I wouldn't exactly call them "hair metal."

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 24 April 2003 20:51 (twenty-two years ago)

You cannot deny how original and fresh (charming even) Van Halens sound was when the first record was released
I dont think Ratt/Hanoi Rocks and the other Thunder apers had that that quality
Scorpions were not really hair metal aside from the fact they had hair and were metal. They also had talent

― SplendidMullet (iamamonkey), Thursday, 24 April 2003 21:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Hanoi Rocks at least had the bonus of being Scandiweigan, which lent them just the slightest edge over Ratt and co.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 24 April 2003 21:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Van Halen wins because:

1) They got that nutty Catskills vibe
2) There's scatting on their first album
3) After "Hot For Teacher", David becomes America's most beloved game show host

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Thursday, 24 April 2003 22:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Hanoi Rocks is awesome, if I was taking sides between them and VH, I'd probably take Hanoi Rocks. I have no clue why, but I bet I would. I know like three girls in love with DLR.

― Ally (mlescaut), Thursday, 24 April 2003 22:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Van Halen wins this fight like Tyson used to in his prime - 31 seconds into the first round and the opponent is bloodied and out cold. Why, you ask?

When Van Halen (1st) came out, it kicked much ass and blew away everything else that was being played on AOR radio. No contest. It was like a blast of live steam cleansing and rooting out all the filth and foul shit that pervaded the music scene of the late 70's. Remember, Disco still had a HUGE influence on everything pop at the time. Van Halen roared in and said "Enough! Goddamnit!" Thank you Van Halen!

― Davlo (Davlo), Thursday, 24 April 2003 23:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Ergo, Van Halen were punk. No, wait...

Van Halen were party metal if anything. Which should be a term if it isn't.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 24 April 2003 23:48 (twenty-two years ago)

When was Reagan first elected?

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Thursday, 24 April 2003 23:50 (twenty-two years ago)

1980

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 24 April 2003 23:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Ned, Van Halen were atomic punks!

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Thursday, 24 April 2003 23:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Reagan was re-elected in '84. PANAMA! DUN DUN DUH NUH NUH PANAMA-AH-AH-AH-AH-AH

BUT:
It was like a blast of live steam cleansing and rooting out all the filth and foul shit that pervaded the music scene of the late 70's. Remember, Disco still had a HUGE influence on everything pop at the time.

OH NO GOD FORBID (PS: do you like "Beat It"?)

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Friday, 25 April 2003 00:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Linda Ronstadt vs Loggins & Messina

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 25 April 2003 02:06 (twenty-two years ago)

One thing is that much of the AOR of the late 70s (Journey, Kansas, Styx, Rush, Triumph) seems to have channeled the countercultural idealism of early 70s rock into a weird mix of solipsism and heroic masculine individualism - Rush embodied this to the cartoonish extreme but it pretty much pervades everything from "Carry On Wayward Son" to "Fight the Good Fight" to "Come Sail Away". (Boston were, I suppose, more into the solipsism than the heroism.) It ties into the sexlessness , virtuosity, and bombast of this stuff. Van Halen could maybe be seen as a totally different strand of jockishness asserting itself, if we're to go by Nabisco's characterization. (Jock turns 16, realizes beer and girls are better than sports and books?) The precision and virtuosity are still there but they're subservient to the 'party metal' orientation of the songs - VH solos are generally short in comparison and they certainly weren't about to make concept albums. Bon Jovi's Springsteen-by-way-of-Loverboy records maybe combined the two threads into a Reagan fairy tale - red-blooded All-American working-class man sticks it to the world and protects his woman? Meat Loaf could possibly be seen as a precedent of sorts.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Friday, 25 April 2003 02:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Ronstadt easy

I haven't read this thread but I do wanna note that "Panama" fucking roxxxxxxxxxxx and the 'ohmigod' part of "Hot For Teacher" fucking roxxxxxxxxxxx as well.

― James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 25 April 2003 02:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Ned, Van Halen were atomic punks!

Hey, you're right. Completely forgot!

Blount is to be sure most accurate.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 25 April 2003 02:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Ronstadt easy

Senor Plow no es macho

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Friday, 25 April 2003 03:10 (twenty-two years ago)

hahaha!

― James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 25 April 2003 06:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Typical slacker squalor house, near Commercial Drive Vancouver, 1989. Everyone up on magic mushroom tea and coke after coming back from NoMeansNo/Jello Biafra show. Somebody whose mom worked in a hospital produces a few ampules of morphine and somebody figures out a way to render it smokeable so we all get more and more catatonic. Around 5 AM the ones still capable of movement start rolling joints of ridiculous BC hydroponic skunk. The TV is still on and about 5:30 a newsflash comes on. 'The United States has just invaded Panama'. 30 seconds later somebody says "I wonder what David Lee Roth thinks about *that*!" That is the last time I laughed so hysterically for so long.

― dave q, Friday, 25 April 2003 09:07 (twenty-two years ago)

It depends how wide you're definition of hair-metal is. If it's pretty wide, I'll take it over Van Halen. But this is another one where I'm glad I really don't have to take sides.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 25 April 2003 20:32 (twenty-two years ago)

I just saw the video for "Hot for Teacher" again recently and I forgot that they had a dance routine with peach tuxedos and top-hats!

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 25 April 2003 21:53 (twenty-two years ago)

(Clumsily executed, I might add, but it's obvious they meant it to be, everything's a lark for Van Halen.)

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 25 April 2003 21:55 (twenty-two years ago)

they needed more videos with those junior versions of themselves. the Michael Anthony one is kinda frightening.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 25 April 2003 21:56 (twenty-two years ago)

I was hoping this thread was called "Van Helden vs. Hair Metal" and would be a discussion of Armand's "Little Black Spiders" which samples Scorpions - "Bad Boys Running Wild".

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Friday, 25 April 2003 22:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Van Halen sort of for me - the hair metallers on The Decline of Western Civilisation seemed like they might accidentally kill you as part of an occult rite that they express totally inauthentic regret for in a later documentary - and I really hate inauthentic regret in later documentaries. But then Van Halen seem like they'd patronise you in conversation and say, 'See, I told you, the kid's a riot'. It's pretty close.

― bedroom, Saturday, 26 April 2003 07:21 (twenty-two years ago)

At this point though, pyrotechnic guitar playing seems like such a vestigial part of 80's metal (even compared to hair/wardrobe or gated drums!). Who were the great hair metal guitar players? They all sound the same.

It's so funny too because the whole presentation of these bands was like "worship the guitar player! Listen to these fast runs! Wow!" I heard some old Quiet Riot stuff a few months ago and I was shocked - shocked I tell you! - at how bad and rundimentary Carlos Cavazo sounds.

At the moment I kinda feel like 80s hard rock was a bit of a total dud. I put on Slippery When Wet and took it off into the first chorus of "Let It Rock", annoyed by the total off-key crapness of the vocals (Does Dan Perry really like these guys?) and the general crudeness of all the playing. This pretty much seems to hold across the board for most of this stuff. Even in terms of production where were the Todd Rundgrens or Tom Scholzes. (OK, maybe Mutt Lange.) Even Linkin Park (or Styx) seems masterful in comparison. Why did this happen? It seems like the only OK bands were the ones who were already around in the 70s, most of whom declined in the 80s. In a prosperous decade where technical mastery was supposedly fetishized, why did the lavish epics of the 70s give birth to stuff that comes off so half-assed by its own standards?

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Monday, 28 April 2003 00:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Like, stuff that came out of punk, Husker Du or the Meat Puppets or Sonic Youth, must have seemed virtuosic in comparison.

Tangentially, Kill 'Em All is really growing on me.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Monday, 28 April 2003 00:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Interesting point Sundar.

Sometimes random record reviews stick in one's head for no reason. One of these was the RS review of the 'Young Guns' soundtrack which while generally derisive said something like 'JBJ's songs sound better without the leadfoots who usually punch out his tunes' and I thought 'waitaminute that's OTM'. As a metal band (chops + exaggerated dynamics etc) BJ don't rate, as a hard rock band (grooves + hooks) they're also pretty bad, maybe the only way they make sense musically is where the Springsteen ('New Jersey'!) thing comes in - 'Darkness' was sort of a roots reclamation of 'Nuggets'-rock (the metronomic drumming, bubblegum kybds, simp-lis-tic I-IV-V - compare "Badlands" to the Vagrants' "Respect" it's the same song), except to keep up BJ stuck the VH (or 'VH') fizz-gtr on top, but usually Sambora's playing is so disconnected from everything (including itself, the solos are just flashy phrases and squeals stuck together with no development or point or anything) that they could almost be punk or improv if they went through an AC-30 or an archtop instead of the Ibanez-MesaBoogie combo or whatever was happenning at the time.

(Also from a band point of view that era was the apex of guaranteed careerism ie a whole industry had arisen promising a 'formula for success' [chops=schooling + 'attitude'=chartsavvy + 'professionalism'=demographic consciousness] where it seemed there was a roadmap to 'getting that deal', with a promised payoff as standardised as the route itself, and there was a lot of bitterness on the hairmetal circuit when 1991 happened, IME alot of Vancouver bar fixtures found out they had to get their courier jobs back]

― dave q, Monday, 28 April 2003 08:36 (twenty-two years ago)

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