The Ramones : Classic Or Dud

You're very much OFF the money there, Pinefox. Will explain why in detail later on.

Can't quite figure out whether that's a putdown of the Clash, or the Ramones, or neither, or both - and I'm not even European !

They became an institution for a reason, Mike. They admittedly worked the gimmick angle (certainly no more so than, say, the much-fawned over White Stripes), but I risk flogging the very obvious point by saying they did it *FIRST*! Respect is due. As for frankness, I don't believe anyone is saying their later work is as significant as their seminal first few albums.

To me this is so far wide of the mark that it completely misses what early-Ramones are all about. The analogies with Brill building and early 60's girlpop songcraft has been trotted out so often wrt The Ramones that it's tempting to dismiss it out-of-hand. There is some truth in it though - I can hear the Shangri-La's, say, in I Wanna Be Your Boyfriend or Babysitter. That's not to say that this automatically makes the Ramones good, of course.

But they're better than good - they're masters. Their best songs are great because they are lean and simple - there's nothing that shouldn't be there. Couple this with a simple melodic hook(nothing fancy - 4 chords max. and another 2 for the middle 8) and a propulsive beat, and you have something irresistable. Add some elements of The Ramones 'own world' imagery (pick from : NY street images, retards, 'nam casualties, glue, girls)and you have genius.

Take "Glad to see you Go" from Leave Home - straight into a Beach Boys/Eddie Cochrane morphed melody and just listen to the way that the song shifts gear slightly on lines 3 and 4 of the verse as Tommy closes the high-hat a touch under the chords and melody. The shift into the chorus is sublime and the sheer rush as it comes back to the last verse from the middle 8 ("I need somebody good, I need a miracle") is like a ride in the space shuttle - on the outside.

Take "Rockaway Beach" - another point on the curve linking "Summer in the City", " Dancing in the Street" and "Baby on more Time". Again - great chorus, great lyrics ("Chewin out a rhythm on my bubblegum") and a sense of PLACE. In less than 3 minutes you feel exactly what it's like to be a teenager in baking hot NY - and you feel it every single time you hear it. That's great songwriting, Pinefox.

Rockaway, Glad..., Listen to My Heart, 53rd and 3rd, You Should Never Have Opened That Door are equals of "Please, Please Me", "California Girls", "My Generation" ..... the list goes on....if you can look past the "punk" thing which is really a red herring as far as The Ramones are concerned.

I guess it all depends on what you look for in a song - they're not Burt or Jimmy Webb, but they tell a story, crank up the adrenaline, and make their own world for 3 mins for EVERY SINGLE TRACK on the first 4 albums. That's classic.

I am still not particularly convinced about the overall point. In fact, come to think of it, I'm not at all convinced. But to be reasonable about this, I'm going to have to leave it till I've listened to the Ramones again.

But, Dr.C makes such a good case for Da Ramones that I'm thinking of checking them out again.

But part2, Jason makes a very interesting point that almost gets buried: the puritanism of much punk. I feel it's a key to why I don't like much of the stuff (although most of the time I think of punk as anorexic - no bottom ;) Will go up on the mountain and meditate on this insight.

Which kind of explains why I like so few American bands. Seems that whatever genre they work in, there's always that wide Rock streak that suffuses it all and kind of obliterates whatever else they're trying to do.

OH-OH-I-LOVE-HER-SO-O-OH.

So I went to see what I thought was going to be a bunch of dodgy old punks on Saturday night and ended up seeing a dodgy old Scottish Ramones (this is a good thing).

Then I told my son (Mark, 5 and three quarters) that "Brian's band sound like the Ramones" and his jaw dropped and he said "THE RAMONES? REALLY? COOL!" and I think it's cool as fuck that my kid thinks it's cool that someone his dad knows is in a band that sounds a wee bit like The Ramones.

Then I listened to It's Alive this morning on the way to work and it reasserted itself as not only the best live album ever, but possibly one of the BEST ANYTHINGS EVER!

C.L.A.S.S.I.C.

Anyway, Weird Tales of the Ramones, anyone got it yet and want to tell me why I really need to buy it regardless of what I already own?

This is looking pretty classic:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ramones-Its-Alive-1974-1996/dp/B000EGEVZK

Finally, the It's Alive footage on DVD, with about, er, 100 other tracks!

DVD1:
-------
CBGB New York, NY (9/15/74)
Now I Wanna Sniff Some Glue
I Don't Wanna Go Down To The Basement
Judy Is A Punk

Max’s Kansas City New York, NY (4/18/76)
I Wanna Be Your Boyfriend
53rd and 3rd

The Club Cambridge, MA (5/12/76)
Chain Saw

Max’s Kansas City New York, NY (10/8/76)
Havana Affair
Listen To My Heart

My Father’s Place Roslyn, NY (4/13/77)
I Remember You
Carbona Not Glue

CBGB New York, NY (6/11/77)
Blitzkrieg Bop
Sheena Is A Punk Rocker
Beat On The Brat
Now I Wanna Sniff Some Glue
Rockaway Beach
Cretin Hop
Oh Oh I Love Her So
Today Your Love, Tomorrow The World

The Second Chance Ann Arbor, MI (6/26/77)
Rockaway Beach
Carbona Not Glue

The Ivanhoe Theater Chicago, IL (7/6/77)
Pinhead
Suzy Is A Headbanger

The Armadillo Austin, TX (7/14/77) Early Show
Commando
I Wanna Be Your Boyfriend

The Armadillo Austin, TX (7/14/77) Late Show
Now I Wanna Be A Good Boy
53rd & 3rd
Today Your Love, Tomorrow The World

Liberty Hall Houston, TX (7/15/77)
Loudmouth
I Remember You
Gimme Gimme Shock Treatment

Liberty Hall Houston, TX (7/16/77)
Oh Oh I Love Her So
Today Your Love, Tomorrow The World

Don Kirshner’s Rock Concert L.A., CA (8/9/77)
Loudmouth
Judy Is A Punk
Glad To See You Go
Gimme Gimme Shock Treatment

The Camera Mart Stages New York, NY (9/3/77)
Swallow My Pride
Pinhead
Sheena Is A Punk Rocker

It’s Alive, The Rainbow Theatre London (12/31/77)
Blitzkrieg Bop
I Wanna Be Well
Glad To See You Go
You're Gonna Kill That Girl
Commando
Havana Affair
Cretin Hop
Listen To My Heart
I Don't Wanna Walk Around With You
Pinhead
Do You Wanna Dance?
Now I Wanna Be A Good Boy
Now I Wanna Sniff Some Glue
We're A Happy Family

Bonus features:
- Dee Dee and Joey - The Beginning (Interview)
- Tommy - Forest Hills High School (Interview)
- Danny Fields - Revelations (Interview)
- Joey & Dee Dee - Influences (Interview)
- Joey & Danny - Artistic Growth (Interview)
- Violence? (Interview)
- What is Punk? (Interview)
- Tommy - How I learned to play drums and we got a record deal (Interview)
- Dee Dee - Coffee And Cigarettes (Interview)
- Johnny - Hard To Stop (Interview)
- Argentina - The First Time (Interview)
- Mandagsborgen (Interview)
- Sha Na Na Shenanigans (Interview)
- It's Not My Place (In The 9 To 5 World) (Video)
- Somebody Put Something In My Drink (Rare Video) (Rough Cut)
- Photo Galleries (Also Ramones fans got chance to send photos taken by them to the DVD).

DVD2:
-------
Musikladen Bremen, Germany (9/13/78)
Rockaway Beach
Teenage Lobotomy
Blitzkrieg Bop
Don't Come Close
I Don't Care
She's The One
Sheena Is A Punk Rocker
Cretin Hop
Listen To My Heart
I Don't Wanna Walk Around With You
Pinhead

The Old Grey Whistle Test London (9/19/78)
Don't Come Close
She's The One
Go Mental

Top of the Pops London (9/28/78)
Don't Come Close

Oakland, CA (12/28/78)
I'm Against It
Needles And Pins

San Francisco Civic Center, S.F., CA (6/9/79)
I Want You Around
I'm Affected
California Sun

The Old Grey Whistle Test London (1/15/79
Rock 'N' Roll High School
Do You Remember Rock 'N' Roll Radio?

Top of the Pops London (1/31/80)
Baby I Love You

Sha Na Na L.A., CA (5/19/80)
Rock 'N' Roll High School

Mandagsborsen Stockholm, Sweden (10/26/81)
We Want The Airwaves

TVE Musical Express Madrid, Spain (11/17/81)
This Business Is Killing Me
All Quiet On The Eastern Front

US Festival San Bernardino, CA (9/3/82)
Do You Remember Rock 'N' Roll Radio?
Gimme Gimme Shock Treatment
Rock 'N' Roll High School
I Wanna Be Sedated
Beat On The Brat
The KKK Took My Baby Away
Here Today, Gone Tomorrow
Chinese Rocks
Teenage Lobotomy

The Old Grey Whistle Test London (2/26/85)
Wart Hog
Chasing The Night

Obras Sanitarias, Buenos Aires, Argentina (2/3/87)
Blitzkrieg Bop
Freak Of Nature
Crummy Stuff
Love Kills
I Don't Care
Too Tough To Die
Mama's Boy

Provinssirock Festival, Seinäjoki, Finland (6/4/88)
I Don't Want You Anymore
Weasel Face
Garden Of Serenity
I Just Want To Have Something To Do
Surfin' Bird
Cretin Hop
Somebody Put Something In My Drink
We're A Happy Family

R.I.T., Rochester, NY (10/8/88)
Do You Remember Rock 'N' Roll Radio
Wart Hog

Rolling Stone Club Milan, Italy (3/16/92)
Psycho Therapy
I Believe In Miracles
I Wanna Live
My Brain Is Hanging Upside Down (Bonzo Goes To Bitburg)
Pet Sematary
Animal Boy
Pinhead

Top of the Pops London (6/29/95)
I Don't Wanna Grow Up

River Plate Stadium, Buenos Aires, Argentina (3/16/96)
I Wanna Be Sedated
R.A.M.O.N.E.S.
Blitzkrieg Bop

(also, LOL at those reviewers going on about this without looking up the tracklist)

Oof -- might have to pick this up.

yes, yes I do

I guess everybody always comments on that so it's probably mentioned already upthread at least once.

Tommy was the best drummer

yes

Ya think?

I Don't Wanna Think

This must have been posted on one of the Ramones' threads before, but just in case:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDWytErRL1k

(Putting aside the categorization...)

I'm not sure if everyone else knew this but the "second verse, same as the first" line in "Judy Is a Punk" is lifted from... "I'm Henry the Eighth I Am" but Herman's Hermits! So uncool it's cool.

Yep

I didn't know for sure but figured.

always wondered if it went back to music hall, to Flanagan and Allen or something

The original song predates Flanagan & Allen (I don't mean Judy Is A Punk btw).

“Third verse different from the first”

Why not put the different verse second ?

"I don't wanna put the different verse second! 1-2-3-4!"

The original song predates Flanagan & Allen (I don't mean Judy Is A Punk btw).

This is incorrectly dated 2012, eight years after Johnny died, but apparently Johnny graded all of their studio albums for NYMag.

Four rate at least a solid A with one more graded an A-. Luckily the five studio albums I've gotten so far, but is he too tough on the others or just about right?

that looks about right to me, End Of The Century prob deserves a B+

iirc the grades (along with further comments on the albums) were from his book.

C.J. comments on Johnny's ratings at this interview.

So I should finally listen to TOO TOUGH TO DIE and ADIOS AMIGOS?

the former, hell yes - the latter I have never heard

it's got "Howling At The Moon (Sha-La-La)" on it!

Yeah TTtD is great.

Aw, I didn't know this about CJ:

Monte: I’d be remiss if I didn't express my admiration with respect to how you handled your son’s autism. (note: shortly after the Ramones retired, CJ was offered the bass position in Metallica. He turned it down to care for his young, autistic son).

CJ: I appreciate that. Thank you. That’s a whole different thing. When you’re a dad, you know that your kids’ only shot at any kind of life is you.

Monte: You left the road for years to take care of him. You turned down Metallica.

CJ: I like to think that there are a lot of dads out there who would do that. What would you do if your doctor told you that your son was autistic, and he needed to wake up in the same bed every day, and have you put him on the bus, and you give him his meals? You have to do it, you have no choice. It’s not like I just decided this was the best way to do it. I was told by his doctors. You want your son to have the best shot he can have? This is what you've got to do.

I told the doctor, “I have a chance to join a really famous band and make a lot of money. He’d be riding on the tour bus, he’d be with me every day.” The Doctor told me, “it’s not lost on me who Metallica is, I get what you’re saying, but here’s what you've got to do if you want to do the right thing by your son.” And he laid it out for me, and that’s what I did.

shortly after the Ramones retired, CJ was offered the bass position in Metallica.

words fail me, these bands seem so vastly different? like, what did the Metallica dudes hear that made them think "this is the guy"?

super sweet story btw, thanks, never heard that

Apparently CJ is on Facebook - here's him and his son.

I feel like people underestimate the ability of pro musicians to switch between styles, CJ had a fast right hand for downstrokes and knew how to be in a professional touring band

I just read Richie's book, which isn't particularly revelatory or anything but he does a good job of explaining technical aspects of the Ramones' music and how deceptively difficult it is to play.

Johnny's right hand is legendary

Dealing with Joey & Johnny on tour being basically the only way to train for dealing with James & Lars on tour

So I should finally listen to TOO TOUGH TO DIE and ADIOS AMIGOS?

― Thrapple from the Apple (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, July 10, 2024 11:35 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

Too Tough to Die is great, Adios is not, album cover aside

So I should finally listen to TOO TOUGH TO DIE and ADIOS AMIGOS?

Absolutely listen to Too Tough to Die. It's one of their heaviest albums, but still punk, not metal. The mix is great; Joey's up front, and the drums are really big.

Pleasant Dreams is a not-bad power-pop album, not really any weaker than the previous record.

I stand corrected re: CJ!

Who needs Christgau with insights like these:

Dee Dee and I wrote “Weasel Face” about a guy who had a real weasel face.

Lol

I didn't know much at all about CJ before but really enjoyed reading that. Had the same initial thought about Metallica but UMS otm. Feel like Ramones music would be super-fatiguing for a normal musician without some kind of rethinking, retraining. There's no let up, no release, no break in the rhythm as in most "regular" music. It's like when actors freeze but they supposedly still have to make tiny little invisible motions so they can keep up the statue impersonation.

https://i.postimg.cc/RCfXhrVm/Screen-Shot-2024-07-11-at-10-33-54-AM.png

also, let's be honest, if you can cut the mustard in Guitar Pete's Axe Attack, any other band is a layup

https://i.postimg.cc/RCfXhrVm/Screen-Shot-2024-07-11-at-10-33-54-AM.png

Lol

Wait TTtD has a cover of "Street Fighting Man"?

Gonna listen but really the only latterday Ramones song I've ever had time for over the decades is "Pet Sematary." I have no idea what album that's even on, if any.

"Street Fighting Man" wasn't on the original album but was a UK-only B-side.

https://www.discogs.com/master/229965-Ramones-Chasing-The-Night-Howling-At-The-Moon-Sha-La-La

Okay, this sounds okay and maybe like something else a little bit. Motörhead, maybe

i love "pet sematary" so much

"Street Fighting Man" wasn't on the original album but was a UK-only B-side.

https://www.discogs.com/master/229965-Ramones-Chasing-The-Night-Howling-At-The-Moon-Sha-La-La🕸

Despite being a fan I don’t think I appreciated what a great vocalist Joey was until recently. Does he get credit for inventing the now-ubiquitous pop-punk vocal style?

kind of a mix of him and milo from the descendents

Oh right. Silly girlme.

Feel like Ramones music would be super-fatiguing for a normal musician without some kind of rethinking, retraining. There's no let up, no release, no break in the rhythm as in most "regular" music. It's like when actors freeze but they supposedly still have to make tiny little invisible motions so they can keep up the statue impersonation.

I think the best example of this is when Clem Burke "Elvis Ramone" was the drummer for a couple of shows. His style is so different and trying to fit in often sounds like a car that can't shift into fourth

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXWSyo0aPnc