Vic Godard And The Subway Sect

There's a great collection of Subway Sect songs came out on Motion a couple of years ago - 44 tracks, and not one less then fine, including some live nonsense that I'd always attributed to The Slits before, weirdly enough. Cost me £11 from HMV a few months back, and yes I was pleased to find it. I cannot be bothered to mask my love for music anymore.

All of 'What's The Matter Boy?' is worth its weight in sullen gold: and even Vic gone all swingtime and torched night is superfine. I have no idea whether all this makes both me and him 'old bores' - I have never met the man personally - but I do know this. Subway Sect were the first band I ever saw (support to the Buzzcocks at Chelmsford Odeon 1978) and I was disappointed to not recognise any hits. (Didn't realise rock shows had support acts.) Bought the single anyway, 'Don't Split It'.

That was the last time Vic ever disappointed me. I'd love to sing him on 'Stars In Their Eyes'.

Great - because it has : Ambition/Parallel Lines/Chain Smoking/Stool Pigeon/Split Up The Money/Nobody's Scared/Stop That Girl - 7 of the best 40 songs ever written. (The version of Ambition from the 'lost' album is fantastic too).

Even so, the track which I just cannot get out of my head is "Nasty Man" recorded live with The Jaguars (Creeping Bent band?) sometime in the late 90's. (There's a great comment from Vic at the end of the song something like "Gotta go now, I've got an early start!") Someone who can write songs THIS GOOD just shouldn't be so obscure.

I only saw the Subway Sect live once, and that was the "Jo Boxers" version , supporting Altered Images at Reading Top Rank.

I have to say that the 90's Edwin Collins-era material is, on the whole, crap. Either dull songs or badly recorded or both.

Of course bad production shouldn't matter when you have songs as good as Vic's, and it ALMOST, but not quite, doesn't. If only the "What's the Matter Boy" material had been recorded just a touch better it would help no end. I feel almost ashamed to say that Terry Chimes' cardboard box drum sound and the tinny guitar intrude on my enjoyment of, say "Split Up The Money" , so bloody great is the song, but I have to come clean and say they do. The lumpen hand of Bernie Rhodes is probably at fault here. To hear just what could have been try the Ambition single (thunderous, surely not REALLY produced by Rhodes) or the Rough Trade LP "A Different Story", a Peel Sessions and Singles compliation from 1984 (the one piece of vinyl which I'll rescue from the rubble if an earthquake ever hits Twickenham). Incidentally, this album has the track with Virginia Astley on it - "Spring is Grey". Who's the V. Astley fanatic around here? Norman - is it you?

Now here I need some help. Who's got the new "What's The Matter Boy?" release, and has also heard the speeded-up versions? Does the slowing down of the songs to the correct speed improve the sound, or not? I'll probably get it anyway, but I'd like to know.

Conscious that I'm in danger of obscuring VG's great talent with talk of 'sound quality' and all that shit, I'll simply say that Vic is/was/ a one-off genius, no less. Classic!

Hold up: Pardon my ignorance. The Subway Sect has something-or-other to do with the Jo Boxers ("Just Got Lucky")?

I saw Jo Boxers with Redskins and Billy Bragg at one of the early ICA concerts. Great live band, like you'd expect. Still couldn't hold a torch to Vic, though.

I only know one song by this geezer. I quite like it. I know how to play it. I have played it live with another contributor to this forum. For that reason if no other, I'm quite fond of it. It's called 'Make Me Sad'. It's kind of geezerish soul-pop or something. It's a little bit like Squeeze, but less melodic and more world- weary. Inoffensive, it won't frighten the tame horses. It does not say 'genius' to me.

A couple of circumstantial issues:

1. It's remarkable, the number of people leaping to acclaim this character as a 'genius'. We had a thread on genius back in Spring, and most people leapt to say things like 'We shouldn't use the word "genius"'. Some of the people who are calling Vic Godard a genius would find their tongues protesting if they were ordered to call Paul McCartney, or even Stephin Merritt, a genius. I think that if there's such a thing as genius in pop (maybe there is, maybe not, maybe it doesn't matter), those fellows qualify. I fear that Vic Godard does not.

2. Vic Godard has been compared to, among others: Dexys - Orange Juice - the Go-Betweens. Again this whispers to me: "dull early 80s cult stuff - not really very interesting - very overrated". It suggests - as the murder squads perhaps say to themselves - a pattern at work.

Dexys: OK, a lot of energy and distinctiveness. But not my cup of tea. Orange Juice: absurdly overrated. Go-Betweens: melodically challenged.

I have a feeling that people who back Vic Godard, Orange Juice and Dexys are in a sense backing an Idea. An Image - a kind of invented (?) memory of a period. I have a feeling that nostalgia and projection are involved; and beer, too. These aren't bad things - I like nostalgia and beer. But I don't believe that Vic Godard is a genius.

What is it that makes VG so good? For one thing, he was one of the few voices questioning punk's direction and ideals from within. He seemed to be one of the few who were willing to question what the hell was going on amidst the clamour. The opening lines of Ambition seem to be equally directed against The Pistols and the trad. music biz ("You can take it or leave it as far as we're concerned/because we're not concerned with you/what you want is buried in the present tense/blind alleyways allay the jewels". Yet further tensions arise when you remember that VG would have had no platform without punk.

This sense that VG is an ousider amongst outsiders is compelling - I see the similarities with Kevin Rowland, as Jerry/Everett mentioned. Also the restlessness, the unwillingness to get locked into one scene, one style, is always a good thing, although you could argue that Vic took this to the extreme.

The Go-Betweens should not come into this - nothing in common with VG's music, way of working, or ideas. I agree with your comments about their lack of melodies, Pinefox, for what it's worth, but not with your last paragraph. I need to think a little more about what you might be saying before I respond.

He said : "I have a feeling that people who back Vic Godard, Orange Juice and Dexys are in a sense backing an Idea. An Image - a kind of invented (?) memory of a period. I have a feeling that nostalgia and projection are involved; and beer, too."

Not really, although I have some sympathy with this point of view. To me, my favourite artists are one mass which are largely all separated from 'their time'. What they have in common is that I think they're great. So when I think of Vic Godard's music if I want to conjure up 'More Like This' I'll more likely mentally link to The Kinks, Joy Division, Magnetic Fields, Daft Punk, XTC, Leftfield, or Kid A than I would to Orange Juice, Josef K, Stiff Little Fingers or The Delta 5. In other words I'm not particularly given to bracketing artists by eras, more by 'whether I think they're fantastic'

So, I'm not trying to conjure up a memory of a period. (By the way, what do you mean by an 'inverted' memory here?)

That's not to say that nostalgia and beer don't play a part. I'm quite a nostalgic person and I drink beer, very often when thinking or talking about music. What I mean to say is, my canon of 'favourite artists or records' is clearly influenced by nostalgia, beer and a whole host of other factors, rather than being the product of say, a scientific experiment to see which pieces of music stimulated my senses the most. But do I sit about in pubs beerily boring friends and strangers with tales of how Vic Godard, Orange Juice , Dexy's et. al are the TRUE geniuses of popular music? No.

I must note the funny conjunction of Orange Juice and Beer around here.

>>> In other words I'm not particularly given to bracketing artists by eras, more by 'whether I think they're fantastic'

Fine - if that's what you say, then that's the way it is. I had a feeling that (many) people who liked VG, plus (for instance) Orange Juice and that other band you lads like, Josef K, were into it partly on an 'era' basis. I still think many are. But if you say you're not, you're not.

>>> That's not to say that nostalgia and beer don't play a part. I'm quite a nostalgic person and I drink beer, very often when thinking or talking about music.

Me too. Like I said, I love those things. I'm the last person to attack nostalgia and beer. The case wouldn't hold water - or beer.

>>> What I mean to say is, my canon of 'favourite artists or records' is clearly influenced by nostalgia, beer and a whole host of other factors, rather than being the product of say, a scientific experiment to see which pieces of music stimulated my senses the most.

Fine - so is mine.

>>> But do I sit about in pubs beerily boring friends and strangers with tales of how Vic Godard, Orange Juice , Dexy's et. al are the TRUE geniuses of popular music? No.

OK. Well, when I brought up beer and nostalgia, that was, in a way, ROUGHLY what I was imagining VG / OJ / Dexys fans did. I still think they do, actually. That's really what I meant. But again, if you say you don't, then you don't.

By the way - 'invented memory' would mean something like "'an idea of what "1981" means' which would be convenient to those holding the idea". It's invented cos it's a fiction, but a memory cos the people were actually around then. (So it's not like me having a 'memory' of 1789 or whatever - that wouldn't be a memory at all.) What I was trying to get at was a kind of mixture of memory, history, nostalgia, projection, fiction and VALUE. Maybe some people 'need' to tell themselves, and others, that 1969 is where it was at. Maybe others need to do that re. 1976. Maybe I do re. 1989. I was suggesting that maybe some VG / OJ fans were kind of doing that for c.1981.

I don't believe those years were special, per se. Each year is as special as you choose to make it. Or maybe choice doesn't enter into it.

Everyone has their own year, and their own version of history. I would absolutely and vehemently deny the supposition that the Go-Betweens lack in melodies, though. But hell: I noticed Pinefox is a Lloyd Cole fan, and I must say how much I admire him or her for that, and his/her ability to percieve beauty in even the unlikeliest of places. I've heard the new Cole album, too.

I pretty much agree with what Jerry is saying about personal mythology / history.

I think that saying that falling for pop = falling for 'the outside world' is an odd way of putting it. I was in touch with 'the outside world' vividly before I became a pop fan. I think I was more 'in touch' with 'the outside world' before I was a pop fan than I am now, when I spend hours on end thinking about pop.

(Jeez, I had a plan to write a final-word, shut-you-fellows-now-this-is-IT masterpiece on the Sect tonight, and instead I've spent the whole evening warring with Doomintroll and baking brownies for the Free Jazz Picnic in the Sky.)

No, I don't necessarily disagree with you on Lloyd, Pinefox. Beauty is in the eye of the reciever, not the creator. You clearly are at a level of reception that I will probably never attain.

I had a religious, middle English upbringing and was barely exposed to ANY pop music until my late teens. (The first song I ever heard that made me think 'YES! now I understand why all my friends love this stuff' was Blondie's 'Denis'. It still sends a shiver down my spine, the same shiver I still get when encountering something 'new'.) I was a classical musician (not a very good one, either). I did not become aware of the outside world outside my immediate vicinity until I became aware of pop music.

Sure, I knew other countries existed.

Actually, I'm curious, were you a fan of Girls at Our Best as well? I found the reissue of Pleasure a couple of years back and lurve it. Also, I was wondering what you thought of all the bands that ended up on Factory right after Joy Division ceased, like Crispy Ambulance and all them...

There's a case for a career retro if ever I saw one.

A Certain Ratio were my main men, right up to and including the release of their first album (although I hate the neo-fascist imagery on the cover). Section 25 trickled my trumpet, too. Didn't OMD have their finest moment on Factory, "Electricity". (I don't want to sound too snobbish here: everything they released on single, through 'Maid Of Orleans" was a pop paroxym.)

Factory was always a little gloomy and self-important for me, though.

How's every little thing?

OMD's Electricity was SO 1979/80, and indeed there was a Factory version, but it was ruined by Martin Hannett's wierd echo effect that he put on the snare. The version on the debut album (not produced by Hannett) is better.

Someone else (Jerry) is prepared to doff their cap in the direction of the wonderful Section 25. Well, well. Did you ever try 'em out on Kurt n' Courtney? ;)

Still thinking about this 'invented memory of a period' thing and I need to put some further thoughts down at some point. But now it's Friday, beer is calling (and possibly nostalgia too).

Beer calls? What does it sound like? Maybe I should listen out for it...

In brief -- I am such the Weddoes saddo that I shan't speak of it. ;-) But Jerry is right -- George Best does in fact have a version of "Getting Nowhere Fast" on it, which is how I heard of GAOB in the first place, so hurrah for him. The original is of course the superior take, though. The version of Pleasure I have has all the singles and B-sides they ever did, apparently, so it's as close to a full on retrospective as there'll be. It's on Vinyl Japan.

Section 25? Just recently got into them via a slew of reissues, great group. I enjoy Crispy Ambulance too, suits my gloomy moods. Early OMD -- gods (and up through Junk Culture I think they were great on album and single both). Friend ML mentions one of his most memorable experiences in 1979 in the UK was seeing OMD open up for Joy Division -- this when OMD had long hair and dressed in robes. Astounding!

Anybody know anything about The Leopards? Jerry, I notice that you mention then in a review of "Cut" on the Domino Recds site. AMG simply lists them as being formed in 1977 (?), and releasing an album on Creeping Bent in 1997. Is this the same band?

The Leopards on Creeping Bent I think I saw, and I think I like, but time plays such terrible tricks on my aging brain...

Finally bought the reissue of "What's The Matter Boy" because HMV were knocking it out for a fiver in their sale. I adore the original LP, and the reissue sounds even better. In playing music which remains identifiably punk rock with subtlety, space and wit (and often quietly) the LP hits on something which at least one branch of independent music worked on for years afterwards, years after Vic had left that behind and was a burger-fryin' club crooner. Adding "Stop That Girl" as track 1 seems a little impertinent, but that song would make any LP in the world better, of course. Duane, did you ever hear the reissue? What did you think?

There's something more, which I'm trying to get to but can't quite make sense of... It's something to do with me not being able to work out what Vic's thinking. With most songwriters, what they do makes a fairly clear kind of sense to me (whether I enjoy it or not): I may not understand what the song is about but I can make a fair stab at imagining what they're doing, what they're getting at. VG consistently leaves me confused and amazed. Sorry that doesn't make a lot of sense.

I am amused to be reminded that the PF's periodic pronouncements on VG are based on his knowledge of one not-very-representative song only (chosen because it's simple and direct and rather pretty and because the words are fairly easy to make out and remember, as well as "if a man is content his life is not worth a cent, and money's only good when it's all been spent"). I can't work out whether PF would consider the Subway Sect more or less boring if he heard more (whether PF's appreciation for the Berlin-Gershwin era Songwriting Greats would be tickled or tortured by "Songs For Sale", for example).

I think PF's thinking about era-love has a deal of relevance to the vast "Bad" thread, to which I may add something boring later, something about the formation of tastes, and something about a notional sixteen-ness.

That's always been the attraction of VG for me too - I was sort of trying to get at that upthread, but didn't express it well. He always seems to be apart from everything - this is perhaps reflected in his style-hopping. The only time he was part of a scene was probably 76- 78 with various Subway Sect incarnations. Rather than become predictable he'd rather move on to something new, often leaving material unheard in the can. You could argue that Subway Sect were part of things only in 1976 and early 77, the Clash Tour and all that. Maybe for VG punk had lost its ideals and become stale by then. You can hear some of this in 1978's 'Ambition'.

I don't think the era-love thing stands more examination - it doesn't just come down to the fact that I am old(ish). I mean, I still have the capacity to appreciate good new music - there's been some great new music this year- I also I happen to agree with The Pinefox that pop in 2001 is dire.

I don't think the lost punk album had anything that wasn't later re-recorded and released as singles or on the debut album. Frankly, the lost stuff that's no longer lost isn't particularly revelatory.

I forget where I found this tracklisting but it's from a tape that was circulating in 1978:
AMBITION / OUT OF TOUCH / EXIT NO RETURN / DIFFERENT STORY / AMBITION /
CHAIN SMOKING / NOBODY'S SCARED / DON'T SPLIT IT / OUT OF TOUCH / PARALLEL LINES / CHAIN SMOKING

I'm looking forward to the new session that Subway Sect are about to play on BBC Radio 6. In about 5 minutes from now, actually.

Okay, they played three songs including "Ambition". Sounded good in a nostalgic-for-1986 kinda way.

New recording of 78 lost album out next week on Overground :

We Oppose All Rock And Roll/ Stayin’ Out Of Touch/ Chainsmokin’/ I Changed My Mind (On The Telephone)/ Eastern Europeans/ Why Did You Shoot Me?/ Stand Back/ Imbalance/ Derail Your Senses/ Not Watchin’ The Devil/ Stool Pigeon/ Idiot Of All/ Exit - No Return/ Rock ‘n’ Roll Even

With Mark Laff and Paul Myers!

Wow!

I'm attempting a trade of the FIre Engines CD for the Subway Sect cd and can't wait to hear it. They were selling signed copies which I think they ran out of. My dream is to get them to play that material on tour with the Fire Engines and the Nightingales. The Monsters of Post-Punk tour.

So they're really releasing the new recording! That's fantastic news!

http://overgroundrecords.co.uk/release.asp?Release=OVER118VPCD

I can't say I'm a HUGE fan of this band but this is one of those times when downloading just doesn't seem right.

You should be a huge fan, though! There's something compelling about Vic's delivery and the tunes are top post-punk. Download to evaluate then buy it all!

I only got into that early stuff (on the Twenty Odd Years comp) recently, after working on liner notes and reading about the Prefects and the Fire Engines, it's become pretty apparent that Subway Sect were the first, the primal UK punk band that was literate, alienated, dissonant, when the Clash, Pistols, Damned etc were mining more "traditional" proto-punk sounds and attitudes.

I'd like to mention that the famous Sister Ray jam from the White Riot Tour, which is usually credited to just the Slits and Subway Sect, features some Prefects as well, as they were the most forgotten band to play on that tour. (Buzzcocks and the Jam also opened some shows).

Well I've already ordered the fucker, it shall show its plastic self at my door, hell be damned, and it won't be too soon.

I'm eager for this.

I need this

Anyone heard this yet? I listened to it on the bus ride to work Friday (yesterday) morning. It was good fun and proves what is wrong with new bands who can't at least try to record like it's 1978 or so.

You under 25's would do well to take notes on early 80's production values. Ideally, everything should be recorded with a fucking cheap 4 Track Recorder or something equally as primitive. Record it in your bedsits for fuck's sake eschew the crap fancy producer with his computers. Just turn the damn tape recorder on. 8-Track Tapes be damned.

Sounds like a quantum leap in fidelity over the original lineup's recordings, a few which sound like they were etched into a tinfoil cylinder in 1878. As far as I can tell, I've heard exactly half of these tracks in their original incarnation, which means I'll be buying downloading buying downloading buying this sucker very soon.

I ordered the 1978 Now cd from amazon last week. Still isn't here. Contacted them and they said it would be next week before it came now. What's the point of Amazon going to TNT instead of Royal Mail because Royal Mail is unreliable, then fucking TNT use Royal Mail to deliver the damn things?

Maybe it's delayed because Vic is coming up to deliver it himself!

"sansend" lp: is it genius as the later godard+subway stuff is?

That's the one I've never heard! 1978 Now is pretty good though, found that on Amazon.

Sansend IS genius, and is pretty different to any other Vic recd. At the time he was listening to lots of hip-hop and chartpop and it really shows in a collage-y sound and the beats. It's not really a Subway Sect album in the way that 1978 Now is - there's no fixed band and he put it together over a period of time with various musicians. There are a few old skool Sect alumni on there - Rob Simmons pops up on backing vox and Nick Brown is on a few tracks. The Bitter Springs are on there and there's also a straight reggae track with Larry Marshall on lead vocals. The best tracks would easily get into a Vic top-ten e.g. Drop A Bomb On It, Back In A Void Again, Nothing Is Easy.

Anyway, in short....GET IT!

i will,thanks doc

Yes, Sansend proves that a musical genius can display his talent effectively in nearly any genre.

Saw Vic in a half empty pub on Holloway Road last night - playing I mean, not drinking. He seems to only be playing songs from the 1977-78 period these days.

He was playing at a punk festival I went to this summer but clashed with some other band and for some reason I didn't have high hopes for him being any good. Maybe because the 1978 Now album seemed a bit weak to me. How was it?

It was enjoyable, ramshackle - it's Vic Godard after all. The bass player's unfortunate resemblance to Stuart Maconie was distracting.

was he delivering mail at the pub too?

was he delivering mail at the pub too?

Man at bar: ''oo's that then, up on stage?'
Barman: The postman. He always sings. Twice. (sighs)

And a new album out on monday!

?? What new album!

http://www.play.com/Music/CD/4-/16337003/We-Come-As-Aliens/Product.html

and http://events.myspace.com/External/MySpaceMessage/Event/View/7864377

Damn, I love the way he sings "double neg-ative", splitting the word like that.

Anyone heard the most recent album? And any word on the rumored "30 Odd Years" anthology? I think Motion Records is out of business.

Saw Vic play live in Brighton at the weekend, and was mightily impressed. Last time I saw him was mid-80s, during his swing phase, and it flopped. On this occasion, not a tuxedo in sight, he did a great Ambition and a few tunes from What's the Matter Boy? but how they should be played. He's not lost his unique voice either.

Parallell Lines = "Fox On The Run" The Sweet.

Great, albeit brief, appearance in the Punk Britannia doc. I think he was wearing carpet slippers.

Sigh... would love to see the man in the USA but I doubt that'll ever happen.

I emailed with him about it for a bit. I always say this but I wanted to get them, The Nightingales and Sexual Objects (or whatever Davy Henderson is up to) to tour together.

Happy Refugees would make a nice addition to any of these imaginary bills.

Droooooooool...

the slits encore features the Prefects as well...that's Robert Lloyd going oh wee oh or whatever with Ari in the background.

I was listening to the "20 Odd Years" comp today and I must say, I found Lloyd's contribution to that song incredibly irritating!

Meanwhile, I noticed the man is hawking a couple of "Live & Rare" CDr's, which I'm always dubious about. Anyone heard them?

The "30 Odd Years" compilation came out earlier this year and it's great! Mind, some of the choices are a bit, well, odd as they've decided to use modern live takes for things like "Ambition". Still, a terrific overview of the great man's career.

http://www.vicgodard.co.uk/30_odd_years.html

not a licensing thing I'd imagine, but Vic I think has always not liked the original version, which was sped up and had the organ added after the fact.

I'm very much looking forward to the 1979 NOW! set which is supposed to be coming this year; the so-called Northern Soul era of Vic's work remains a bit of a mystery to me and some approximation of what it was like will be good. If the "Caught In Midstream" single is anything to go by, the LP will be better than good.

A recording of the Northern Soul set used to be available at Kevin Pearce's website (yrheartout.blogspot.co.uk); not sure if it's still there. It wasn't great quality, tbh. The issue of Yr Heart Out that covers this period is still there - "YHO 13 - A Day to Remember".

I'll look that out - I was in the habit of printing out YHOs as they came out and reading them on the bus home, like they were "The Same Sky" or something. I must dl his book sometime soon, too.

Anyway, another track from the forthcoming, keeps me anticipating this record:

https://soundcloud.com/aedrecords/vic-godard-subway-sect-born-to-be-a-rebel

Saw him/ them last night in Birmingham - been a fan since '77, never seen live before. Fantastic evening, never realised what a performer he is, and how funny. Started with a brace from the new LP, then 'Stop That Girl' then a few more newies, including 'Get That Girl' - dawned on me that he took his namesake's 'a girl and a gun' maxim to heart....

Then Ambition/ Common Thief before an unstoppable blitz through the Peel Session songs (Parallel Lines, Nobody's Scared, Chainsmoking), with ongoing Suburban Studs joke (only remembered afterwards they were from Brum)before encores of Blackpool and Stool Pigeon.

Just back and listening to record....

How were the Blue Orchids?

^^
Angry - surprisingly intense and very noisy.

It's effectively Bramah plus his old band Factory Star renamed and doing Blue Orchids songs + one newie.

"1979 Now" is up on Spotify, it's great - fun and enjoyable, give a listen!

^^
It is that.