Can Mainstream Rock or Country be "street" and would Simon Reynolds like it?

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On his blog, writer Simon Reynolds criticized the Rough Trade record
as follows and asserted that Ludacris creams Prefuse 73:

"Still, look at the
blindspots, and they form a pattern. Plenty of digi-dub and
archival roots, but no dancehall; no street rap but loadsa US
undie backpacker biznizz; MC-fronted garage rap, but course there’s a superfluity of “proper” UK hip
hop. Now I’m sure I don’t need to spell it out for you, you’re
all-too-familiar with where I’m coming from on the polemical
tip here. There's a distinct sociocultural bias here, an
unacknowledged exclusionary process at work. It's the
predictability of the syndrome that is depressing, the way the
blindspots just keep recreating themselves along these
determinist class-based lines. Plus the fact that Rough Trade
are probably right, from a business point of view; they have a
very good idea of what their clientele would be interested in,
and their clientele would rather buy Prefuse 73 than some
Ludacris track despite the fact that the latter creams the
former on just about every front, including riddimological
invention.

My bet is that you will find the same patterns replicated in
hipster stores across the world (They certainly operate in the
ones I visit in New York like Other Music---Tower, over the
road from Other, has a far superior stock of UK garage CDs,
thanks to the efforts of import controlla Paul ‘Sci Fi Soul’
Kennedy.) Is it hyperbolic to think of these sort of blindspots
as constituting an unconscious form of cultural apartheid?
Perhaps. But while iIn this age of the glorious interweb there
may indeed be no such thing as marginal music, there are
patently still musics that are marginalized.

All this has an unintended useful side effect, though: what I
call the Rough Trade test. If you want to know if a UK dance
genre still has da vybe, street-wise, if it’s still got its "social
energy" legs" then make sure it's not carried by Rough Trade.

So my questions are: 1. Is there a "street" equivalent for rock and country and while not "marginalized" are these genres also not properly addressed in hipster stores? and
2.Is mainstream rock(say Creed rather then an exception like Radiohead)and mainstream country(say Diamond Rio or Toby Keith) more "inventive" then say Yo La Tengo and Neko Case respectively per Simon's Ludacris/Prefuse 73 comparison?

Like Simon and Sasha and a number of you I happen to find mainstream hiphop(Timbaland, Neptunes etc. productions) more enjoyable aesthetically then mainstream rock (neo-grunge,alt-metal,rap-rock,nu-metal) [and I don't know enough about country] but I thought Simon's (imho overly) broad reductive theory could stand a little analysis...

― Steve Kiviat (Steve K), Friday, 9 May 2003 03:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Ludacris vs. Prefuse 73 seems like an unfair comparison. I'll admit that I love Prefuse 73, and couldn't even name you a Ludacris track, and so I'm probably exactly the kind of classist, indie mofo Reynolds is talking about. But I've also been much more receptive to mainstream hip-hop since getting into Prefuse, and I do dig a lot of the stuff I hear on the radio. The reason it's an unfair comparison is that Prefuse 73's approach to hip-hop is more about pure sound than about lyrical mastery, party vibes, etc., and so his music sometimes has more in common with certain ambient electronic stuff than with mainstream "in da club" hip-hop. Reynolds probably should've used someone like Aesop Rock as an example instead.

Apart from that, though, this is a really interesting thread topic. I'll think about it.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 9 May 2003 03:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Possible reason why mainstream rock and country can't be "street": Because the common denominator of most radio-friendly rock, country, and hip-hop is slick production. And while slick production is an asset in hip-hop -- a mark of creativity -- it is usually derided in rock and country as a mark of soullessness and inauthenticity. That's a rockist viewpoint, to be sure, but it's the dominant one.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 9 May 2003 04:05 (twenty-two years ago)

???

what kind of slick production are you talking about? what sort of audience are you referring to - art school kids? mainstream rock that's "street" in the sense of hip-hop = nu-metal. slickly produced, mass appeal, played on the radio, at sports events, etc. this question should answer itself, considering reynolds was giving props to nu-metal in his faves of 2002.

― vahid (vahid), Friday, 9 May 2003 04:12 (twenty-two years ago)

and could we stop talking about please stop talking about HIM? i think it's affecting the quality of his output (too many lame, mean personal attacks, if i may be specific).

― vahid (vahid), Friday, 9 May 2003 04:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Ludacris and Scott Herren are both from Atlanta and both got their starts at Hot 97.5 - it might be suggested the gap between the two isn't as large as Simon Reynolds thinks it is. It might also be suggested that when it comes to hip-hop Simon Reynolds doesn't always know what the hell he's talking about.

― James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 9 May 2003 04:16 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, i don't get how prefuse 73 : uk backpacker :: ludacris : uk garage.

uk garage might as well be the music of moon people, for all my luck in finding ONE TRACK (any track!) from 2003.

― vahid (vahid), Friday, 9 May 2003 04:20 (twenty-two years ago)

The "sociocultural bias" Reynolds talks about exists, I'm sure, but I'm just as sure that it exists in almost every music consumer. His own slight bias is revealed when he complains that his indie store doesn't carry what he likes, but Tower, which we are led to believe would ordinarily suck, carries more of what he wants. I say, great. Stop bitching. That's why God made more than one record store.

Rough Trade does what it does. If it seems irrelevant to him, that's him. Accusations of "sociocultural bias" (whatever that means) is just him projecting a little too much of his own tastes on the rest of the world.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 04:25 (twenty-two years ago)

1. Is there a "street" equivalent for rock and country and while not "marginalized" are these genres also not properly addressed in hipster stores?

With all respect, who th' fuck cares? If Reynolds is complaining that the best music isn't hip enough, and if that really bothers him, he has a long, sad life of music consumerism ahead of him.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 04:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Plus, he thought the last Dalek album was "noise" music. What the hell street does he live on? I live on Pine St. and I'm all about Killer Mike and Faith Hill. But a block over on Spruce? Who knows. They are all wankstas over there anyway.

― scott seward, Friday, 9 May 2003 04:34 (twenty-two years ago)

but that Dalek album sucks!

― M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 9 May 2003 04:38 (twenty-two years ago)

which would be true if it weren't so great. but that still doesn't make it a noise record.

― scott seward, Friday, 9 May 2003 04:39 (twenty-two years ago)

It's a rap record whether he likes it or not.

― scott seward, Friday, 9 May 2003 04:41 (twenty-two years ago)

he didn't say "this is a noise record, not a rap record," though. the actual quote is "Shouldn’t we all be over 'noise' by now?" I mean, he could have said the same thing about El-P and it wouldn't mean he was saying it wasn't rap. (also, it sucks)

― M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 9 May 2003 04:43 (twenty-two years ago)

I think S.R. is a fine writer, but he's too hung up on authenticity based on class/race. I think you perpetuate the differences between things by constantly pointing them out instead of playing off of the things that they have in common. He should just complain to Rough Trade until they carry whatever record he thinks they should be carrying. That's what all good customers do.

― scott seward, Friday, 9 May 2003 04:46 (twenty-two years ago)

That's what I got out of it. -It's noise, let's move on.- Okay, he didn't actually say it belonged in the genre of "noise" but he might as well have.

― scott seward, Friday, 9 May 2003 04:50 (twenty-two years ago)

And it doesn't suck, it's really, really good.

― scott seward, Friday, 9 May 2003 04:53 (twenty-two years ago)

And I will say this for El-P, at least he was kind enough to put out an instrumental version of his album for noise music lovers.

― scott seward, Friday, 9 May 2003 04:55 (twenty-two years ago)

does suck vs doesn't suck!

― gaz (gaz), Friday, 9 May 2003 04:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Point taken on nu-metal, Vahid. I guess I was looking at it from the perspective of a DeRogatis-like rock critic, though, for whom Disturbed's "street" value is potentially undermined by the slickness of their sound (slickness, like it or not, being a critical signifier of inauthenticity). And then noting that this isn't a standard held to hip-hop, so slick mainstream stuff gets more easily praised.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 9 May 2003 04:56 (twenty-two years ago)

name five good working critics for whom slickness is a critical signifier of inauthenticity

― James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 9 May 2003 05:01 (twenty-two years ago)

The hell with slickness. I think the words authentic and inauthentic should be banned from a critic's vocabulary.

― scott seward, Friday, 9 May 2003 05:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, like I said, Jim DeRogatis. I don't know the distinctive approaches of enough critics to list any others. Isn't that sort of rockist conventional wisdom, though? Or am I making too many assumptions?

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 9 May 2003 05:07 (twenty-two years ago)

any assumptions = too many assumptions

― James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 9 May 2003 05:09 (twenty-two years ago)

(Actually, maybe not even for DeRogatis. I was thinking of the fact that he hates the BeeGees, but it's not because they went disco, it's because they were white Australian guys who went disco. Meanwhile, he likes Donna Summer. So yes, he's hung up on authenticity, but it's a race/class thing, not an aesthetic thing.)

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 9 May 2003 05:10 (twenty-two years ago)

(Lately, I've been thinking a lot about how certain aesthetic elements in music function as cultural signifiers. So I apologize if that got dragged into this thread without much forethought. But maybe that idea is fraught with complications, anyway, such as the fact that I obviously don't know what the fuck I'm talking about and should leave this kind of thing to the big boys.)

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 9 May 2003 05:16 (twenty-two years ago)

i don't see where simon's leading us to believe tower would ordinarily suck. by "ordinarily" do you mean "it sucks for most things i would be looking for"—by which i guess you mean things not-ludacris-related, or at least not "mainstream"? well there's your marginalization. from the passage you quote it seems like simon's doing a neat trick, an inversion of what marginal music usually means. prefuse 73—from their name on down the list—is any non-mentalist's dictionary definition of "marginal music" but they and the sebadoh b-sides are front-and-center in the store what's got "good taste", not luda. luda's outside the circle. (aw poor luda) have you seen the hip hop vinyl at other music, the pick n mix quality of its tiny sad little bin almost seems willful. it's not just "another record store", there are many like it, with the same fissures and drop-offs. and all of them with totally obvious massive sellers in other sections of the place!!

mainstream country can't be "street" but it can be "road"

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 9 May 2003 05:26 (twenty-two years ago)

dirt road

― M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 9 May 2003 05:38 (twenty-two years ago)

But again you're essentially just complaining that other people don't like it as much as you do. It's not like he can't fucking find the records he wants.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 05:40 (twenty-two years ago)

What I mean is -- it seems to me that his job as a critic is not to complain about what's in what store. It's to urge people to seek out things they might like, seek being a key word. Otherwise, the argument is just that all record stores should carry and promote more "good" music, i.e. music that I like. And that's just silly.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 05:43 (twenty-two years ago)

so critics are supposed to leave their advocacy to the sound-object itself but not where you find it? bullshit. that's like saying you shouldn't criticize the cover art or liner notes or anything that doesn't focus exclusively on the sounds the record makes

― M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 9 May 2003 05:51 (twenty-two years ago)

what if he wrote "kazaa really sucks because they take forever to download stuff off of and their selection is crap, but soulseek has a relatively fast d/l time and carries plenty of what I'm writing about here, which you as a reader/consumer will perhaps be interested in since my job is to alert you to these things"?

― M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 9 May 2003 05:53 (twenty-two years ago)

simon's not complaining about being denied access to anything kenan

some stores have some things and other stores don't have those things—they have other things ;)—and it falls into a class/race pattern (among other factors, no doubt). it's not a mindblowing revelation but i like it, there's something sort of elegaic about it. a sadness to see music he likes get divvied in this particular way.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 9 May 2003 05:57 (twenty-two years ago)

But (I'm frustrated now) why the sadness? What's elegiac about music being divided along race/class lines? Isn't that obvious and kind of eternal? Isn't that like arguing that racism is bad? Yes, of course. But now what?

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:00 (twenty-two years ago)

No it's not. It's more like bitching because he has to walk three blocks instead of two. He lives in NYC, fer chrissakes. It's not like he's complaining about Wal Mart. That I could dig. What he's saying, if I understand correctly, is that some stores cater to a clientelle that has has tastes that he thinks could be better. Boo fucking hoo.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:03 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think he's being particularly elegaic, or that he's complaining about the walk; it's more like he's annoyed because stores w/this aura of "edge" to them, whose entire existence seems to be centered around getting to things faster than the mainstream competition, are missing out on (some of) the stuff that's effecting musical change, when the entire point of their existence is to be ahead of the curve, musically.

― M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:07 (twenty-two years ago)

heh I can't tell if Other Music's hip hop section is tragedy or farce

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Hm. Yeah, okay, I see where you're coming from. But I disagree about the entire point of their existence, which I would argue is to make money by cornering whatever market they can. Dance hall doesn't happen to be it right now. Sure, other musicians are listening to it and learning from it, but for the stores, that doesn't necessarily translate into paying the rent.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:10 (twenty-two years ago)

again, place the blame on the customerbase, not the store management - you can't blame them for wanting to stay in business

― James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Thank you, James.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Dance hall doesn't happen to be it right now

I just want to savor this for a moment.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Okay.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Eat shit.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Ok, so the argument then is that these stores should be carrying dance hall because people are clamoring for it, and they are ignoring an obvious need. If that's true, my mind is changed.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:16 (twenty-two years ago)

no, they're clamoring for Pressure Sounds reissues of early dancehall and Kid606-style bastardizations of the current stuff and that stupid Mo' Wax Now Thing instrumentals set because a lot of the stores we're talking about don't actually stock the current fucking thing

― M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Dammit I had a zinger all lined up! CURSES!

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:19 (twenty-two years ago)

So you're saying that instead of giving the people what they want, the store should be giving the people what they need. That, in essence, the stores should be acting as critics? Mind you, I'm just asking. I'm allowing at this point that I may be wrong.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Go ahead with your zinger, Tracer. If it makes you feel better.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:21 (twenty-two years ago)

not "what they need"--what, based on the fact that the new Pressure Sounds King Jammy comp and Now Thing both sold pretty well, they might want, if given the opportunity to have it.

let me just nb. that I do like Other Music and shop there a lot, and the fact that Tower is right across the street probably influences what they buy to some degree. but my (and I think Tracer's) objections stand. it's not like this is all that hard--Kim's, three blocks away, carries the same basic stuff as Other only their hip-hop section is really fucking good.

― M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:23 (twenty-two years ago)

nb I do not have actual data on the sales of those two CDs, but I've seen them in stock, seen people buy them, heard them being played on the store PA et al.

― M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 9 May 2003 06:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Skipping 99 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

"Street" is just as much of a pose as anything else, anyway. Merle Haggard and Johnny Paycheck were tough dudes but the "outlaw" image was calculated. I doubt Simon's interested; not enough compression and bass and crazy hi-hat patterns. But maybe I'm listening to the wrong country music!

I like his blog, I'm glad he's writing it. I noticed Steve thinks it's "affecting the quality" of his writing. Is there anything to this? William Gibson is giving up his blog, saying "a watched pot never boils".

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 9 May 2003 14:28 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm sorry VAHID thinks it's affected the quality of his writing (* whoop whoop whoop *).

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 9 May 2003 14:29 (twenty-two years ago)

a. it's just a blog, thinking out loud, etc etc. stop taking it as sermon on the mount, esp when s.r. is in "amateur sociologist" mode.

b. his argument - at base, before it even picks up any class, race, or cultural associations - breaks down to: "why isn't rough trade stocking this ultra-cool, waaaaaaay underground music (uk garage) and instead stocking this lame bullshit you can read about in any dance mag?" which is the ULTIMATE indie argument. in fact, one of the reasons the "street" = "mainstream" analogy falls to shit is in trying to look at it from an american perspective: wiley kat is 10x more obscure and "underground" than cat power, esp. over here.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 9 May 2003 14:29 (twenty-two years ago)

i saw dalek live and thought they were really good
and much and all as i hate to admit it,surely the fact that "rock",whether it be the white stripes or nickelback,is selling well means it is relevant
as for the other music thing,its been said upthread,but surely it is just a case of people opening a store with the kind of music they like that is difficult to get elsewhere,and even if they all loved ludacris its not what they sell-they don't claim to sell "music that leads the way" or whatever,they claim to sell other music,which they do...

― robin (robin), Friday, 9 May 2003 14:29 (twenty-two years ago)

welcome to the morning shift jess

thank you robin

― gaz (gaz), Friday, 9 May 2003 14:39 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm only making a brief cameo in order to boost my profile for the upcoming indie guilt 2: the gift & the curse.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 9 May 2003 14:43 (twenty-two years ago)

I thought we were on Indie Guilt 7 by now. It's like Jason. The motherfucker just won't die.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 14:48 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, what robin said!- On some level it's an attitude that is anti-indie-obscurity-naval-gazing. I can relate to that. I go on jags where i listen to nothing but 60's guitar gunk for a week or two and i get this feeling like i'm out of it and need to engage with the real world . so i turn on mtv, watch a sean paul video and feel connected again. or listen to some friday night freestyles on the radio or write Eve a poem or something. I gotta say S.R. riles me up when i read him and i like that! not many people can rile me up or know how to. I hardly ever agree with him, but that's okay. I wish more people did it. The only time i ever got riled up on ILM was when some dude made fun of bow wow wow and said they were awful. grrrrr! That's it, though.

― scott seward, Friday, 9 May 2003 14:50 (twenty-two years ago)

We could, like, talk bad about your mother if you want.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 14:52 (twenty-two years ago)

BOW WOW WOW NUFF SKET BOYZ GET ME

― ss, Friday, 9 May 2003 14:54 (twenty-two years ago)

DONT TESS FASS I KNOW YOU BE WATCH DEM CHICHI MOWHAWKS FLEXIN DEM 2 WAY DILDA

― jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 9 May 2003 14:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Who wants to be in touch? The whole reason I listen to music is to get out of touch! If somethign that's important or relevent does that then so be it, but if something 'indie' or whatever does it then I'm gonna listen to that instead. Or as well as.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Friday, 9 May 2003 14:56 (twenty-two years ago)

well said!

― James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 9 May 2003 14:58 (twenty-two years ago)

hmmm, matos couldn't really get me going with the dalek thing, i'll have to think about it.I'll let you know.

― scott seward, Friday, 9 May 2003 14:58 (twenty-two years ago)

ME SEEN NUFF CHI CHI PUNKS WITH WHAT IS LIKE A OBSCURE 7" VINYL FLEXIN AND TING OVER DA NET

― ss, Friday, 9 May 2003 14:58 (twenty-two years ago)

I liked it better when it was Indie Guilt 2: The Search for Curly's Gold.

― hstencil, Friday, 9 May 2003 15:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Jess's description of S.R.'s take makes me realize why I still hate the privileging of the underground in any context.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 9 May 2003 15:02 (twenty-two years ago)

i like to be in touch. or partly anyway. I wanna know what people are listening to and what people are doing. Pop music is some sorta cultural whatzit or a way of gauging something or other.sorry for being so technical.

― scott seward, Friday, 9 May 2003 15:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, I stay 'in touch' to a degree to find stuff that sends me out of touch, if that makes sense...

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Friday, 9 May 2003 15:06 (twenty-two years ago)

you should check out hall & oates

― James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 9 May 2003 15:07 (twenty-two years ago)

It makes sense in itself, but it makes your other post not make sense.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 15:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Using the currency of pop music to gauge the way other people think and act in a broad rather than a specific sense seems like a total mug's game.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 9 May 2003 15:08 (twenty-two years ago)

I would have to drive three hours to Chicago to find a garage 7" and they probably wouldn't have what I wanted anyway. Y'all stop complaining.

― Adam A. (Keiko), Friday, 9 May 2003 15:08 (twenty-two years ago)

This is funny in a sense because it reminds of me of when I went into Other Music in like 1997 and asked if they had the Genius/GZA Liquid Swords album. I don't think they even had a hip-hop section then.

― hstencil, Friday, 9 May 2003 15:08 (twenty-two years ago)

wait did i mention that i LOVE current modern pop music and always have. i think i forgot that part. I'm not a sociologist though. I don't work in theories. I AM interested in what different people like and why they like it.

― scott seward, Friday, 9 May 2003 15:15 (twenty-two years ago)

It's cool that on countless bus stops over London you can find written things like "DIZZEE IS BUFF" "ROLLDEEP ARE TICK" written in thick black marker pen. So exciting.

― ss, Friday, 9 May 2003 15:18 (twenty-two years ago)

That's probably the record label's street team at work.

― Ben Williams, Friday, 9 May 2003 15:23 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm gonna start writing that all over town, i think

― jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 9 May 2003 15:24 (twenty-two years ago)

with regard to the whole record shop influencing your taste,what do people think about djs who mix a certain type of dance music,say hard techno or microhouse or breaks or whatever,something reasonably specific,who go record shopping and the guy behind the counter knows what type of music they mix and gives them the new stuff along the same lines to listen to every time they go into the shop?
i mean,i suppose its logical,but it does make you one step removed from choosing your set...
i dunno how common this is,but i've been led to believe its fairly normal...

― robin (robin), Friday, 9 May 2003 15:24 (twenty-two years ago)

It is normal. It's not like the clerk is filtering much. It would be ridiculous for someone to say, "Well, here's the new rock records." But like you say, hardhouse is pretty darn specific. I can't imagine an unmanagable amount of it is released each week.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 15:32 (twenty-two years ago)

ha!

― jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 9 May 2003 15:35 (twenty-two years ago)

It would be ridiculous for someone to say, "Well, here's the new rock records."

"Here's the new new rock records." would make perfect sense tho.

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Friday, 9 May 2003 15:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, I'm no DJ, obv.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 9 May 2003 15:40 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm so sick of people asking if music has any relevancy. It all has relevancy to someone. If some 15 year old kid in Iowa buys a Creed album and listens to it 20 times and totally relates and understands, and it touches him and is affected, then FUCK EVEN CREED IS RELEVANT. They're selling records to someone, ya know.

― David Allen, Friday, 9 May 2003 19:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Whew--what the fuck is Simon Reynolds takin', I want some of it!

I heard Ludacris on the radio recently, driving around in my bland Midwestern home...Ludacris is talking about fuckin' some chicks at the gig, etc., and the various ways he'll do it, then he leaves. Three cheers for the man Ludacris, gettin' some. I think it's fantastic and it's a fantasy of many of us, prolly including Simon R. But I simply don't know how you make these marginal distinctions... what a gig, almost as good a gig as Ludacris's, just not with as much "action."

Simon R. should come to any anonymous burb in this great bland country of ours and just listen to the "urban" radio station for a couple days, eat some hamburgers (here they make good onion rings) and then maybe he'd quit writing such idiot bullshit...I mean really, what does he think he's doing? There is indeed a small segment of people who worry about these kinda things, "class" and whether or not some record store clerk knows about same...as if record-store clerks mean shit. The rest of the folk here listen to the radio and get their take-out, like good Americans...I mean, really, is this what going to University makes ya, a twat like Simon Reynolds, endlessly parsing something that is blatantly obvious, like Ludacris? Lord help the boy...

― Jess Hill (jesshill), Friday, 9 May 2003 20:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Reynolds was a hero to most but he never meant shit to me, that sucker is bullshit, simple and pure, A.R. Kane is better than the Cure?!?!?!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 9 May 2003 20:40 (twenty-two years ago)

jess hill is jess' evil twin

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 9 May 2003 20:49 (twenty-two years ago)

it's true, you know.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 9 May 2003 21:03 (twenty-two years ago)

A.R. Kane is better than the Cure?!?!?!

I admit this is hard to maintain.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 9 May 2003 21:20 (twenty-two years ago)

but david, though what you say [about creed] seems so right, and in many respects it is right, think about it for a minute, there is another important way of looking at it:

not all forms of art serve ends useful to the consumer. some in fact exploit the consumer. advertising, propaganda, producers forcing stupid songs into their director's movies cos the bands are chattel of the megacorp...

a mcdonald's jingle has musical value and people like it. but it does bad things to people: the human race is less healthy for its constant airing between tv kids shows. [note: i must overlook that classic, "i'd like to buy the world a coke", which was my generation's over the rainbow]

if you look at music history, it's full of con artists ripping off the innovators: the white cover records of the 50s, the big band color barrier, etc. now, from one perspective, a pat boone version of a ray charles tune is itself an innovation: he tones it down, prettifies it with a choir.

but since there is money involved, creative careermanship, some people make polemical statements. "pat boone records are pale imititations" or "creed sucks because they're watered down [less guitar detuning and literary reaching] pearl jam and that's a tired sound anyway".

such a statement has value, as does pointing out that it was shoved down the throats of the radio listeners through payola.

there's a small amount of genuine merit in a mcdonald's combo meal too, but complaining about it is also a useful thing to do if you can back it up with recommendations for a better lunch restaraunt that isn't really any more expensive, or you convince the kid to make his own lunch.

re: rough trade/other music not carrying garage... maybe i'm being overly reductionist but indie shops that specialize in the current lo fi post punk and bedroom idm and make their bread and butter off reissues from the 50s,60s&70s and vinyl couldn't ever sell their clientele much dance music because their clientele don't dance that much, they sit around listening to records. hence you will still find tons of relatively current jungle/drum n bass in their used bins but paltry amounts of other kinds of contemp. dance genres, they don't accept it cos they know it probably won't sell during the genre's trend window.

― mig, Friday, 9 May 2003 21:25 (twenty-two years ago)

i could be mistaken but i think OM has a "ghetto tech" section

of course Ludacris is not "ghetto tech"

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 9 May 2003 21:30 (twenty-two years ago)

heh, if anyone is really "ghetto tech" tho its luda

― jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 9 May 2003 23:33 (twenty-two years ago)

raising the question.....

waaaaait a minute, this is a rerun!

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 9 May 2003 23:55 (twenty-two years ago)

http://tvparty.com/vgifs12/whatshap2-1.jpg

― jess (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 10 May 2003 00:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Jess is the ubergod.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 10 May 2003 00:54 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, but rerun was a sell-out doobie brothers fan. He should have been listening to Rick James.

― scott seward, Saturday, 10 May 2003 03:15 (twenty-two years ago)

while we're on the subject of simon reynold's blog,would i be betraying a surprising degree of naivite if i were to reveal that i have no idea what a "cleavage induced body-fart" is?

anyone care to enlighten me?

― robin (robin), Saturday, 10 May 2003 14:26 (twenty-two years ago)

ok ok ok ok ok

CAN NOONE EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER USE A FUCKING MCDONALDS ANALOGY AGAIN.

Thank you.

― Ronan (Ronan), Saturday, 10 May 2003 14:33 (twenty-two years ago)

maybe joy press can enlighten you

― James Blount (James Blount), Saturday, 10 May 2003 20:42 (twenty-two years ago)

haha

― jess (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 10 May 2003 21:54 (twenty-two years ago)

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