Fushitsusha: I Have Some, Do I Need Them All? or, Julio To Thread, Stat!

I have live 1 and live 2, I saw it! and withdrawe (which wasn't that good really so I actually sold it).

After spending all that money I thought I'd stop and get that stuff burned into my brain so now i'm ready to get some more.

I am getting pathethique burned by someone else and I am going to get round to actually buying Origin's hesitation.

So the ans is: get all the PSF ones (the 4 sets, two are double, which you already have and two are single). They all have diff line up (Origin's has haino on drums/vocals and a bass player, no guitars here: everyone I've spoken hates it but PSF documents most of the line ups, after that scour second hand bins and you shall get bargains I'm sure).

(I know I saw it! isn't PSF but it was my first fushitsusha and it was slightly cheap, which is why i got it to try it out: its a great one I know but its the one i listen to least).

This goes for Haino as well. just PSF: watashi dake, affection, PSF 7 (whose name i can't remmeber) and other projects that I'll egt round to.

also there is a fushitsusha thread on ILM. search for it.

i think it's true that once you're 'in' with haino you just keep on keeping on.

john, if you're after the tokuma titles, may i suggest:
www.eclipse-records.com

haino solo is a prickly one, the PSF titles are probably the best (#7 is 'nijiumu', btw, but not the nijiumu album 'era of sad wings'), but there's some other great titles: 'tenshi no gijinka' and the new one 'c'est parfait ...' on turtle's dream are both rather amazing.

i've just ordered the new haino on psf, any opinions from anyone?

and supposedly there's an archival fushitsusha performance from the late 70s out now, here's the details from the PSF webpage:

Fushitsusha / Eien no houga saki ni te o dashitanosa
Release Date: 5/3/2003
From 1978, the earliest group recordings by Fushitsusha yet to be released. A vital document for understanding the Japanese underground and the truest, most exciting rock group of the contemporary era.

not true with me. I mean, I love haino but I've a bought a couple of things on other labels on the cheap and they were just him doing noise and not being that interesting with it. there are dud recordings but there had to be if you issue 100+ albs in 10 or so years. Haino solo is a difficult one ('prickly' as you put it).

I think you've said that your library has every issue of the wire. if that's the case then read Biba Kopf review of it, which made me try them out. its on the issue with diamanda galas on the cover.

yeah julio, there have been a few duff moments (i heard one duo - maybe with barre phillips? - that just didn't do it for me), but i think what i meant was that you're always 'drawn' to haino, always wanting to find out what he's up to: i always get the feeling a new record of his will be pretty good (he rarely resorts to just 'interesting') and am rarely disappointed. the only haino-related record i own that i don't return to with some kind of regularity is the duo with mazzacane (and that's probably because it's in a slipcase, keep losing it in the collection)

what do you make of his hurdy-gurdy titles? and what were the haino titles that didn't grab you, julio? just out of interest.

nick - julio's right, 'i saw it!' is a great starting place though if you want something less elliptical, the two double live discs on psf are very 'it'.

the most ridiculous thing about me raving about haino/fushitsusha is, when i was 17/18, i thought his stuff was the biggest pile of shit! or at least, very over-rated. ah, youth.

isn't ''The time is nigh'' where he is on vocals and there isn't much guitar?

but I just haven't got round to the tokuma releases.

dada- fushitsusha are quite varied. they really are. the tuneage on live 2 is quite incredible. As much as I love sonic youth, MBV, and even though haino does really diff stuff I think it is an absolute peak for what a 'rock' band can do.

Live 1 is more 'bluesy'. the other reason i like him its his singing. its not amazing all the time but on the last track on live 1 it's kind of beautiful. but its not to evryone's taste.

''yeah julio, there have been a few duff moments (i heard one duo - maybe with barre phillips? - that just didn't do it for me), but i think what i meant was that you're always 'drawn' to haino, always wanting to find out what he's up to''

yeah sure but I'm always wary of his improvising w/others. his duos with brotzmann and bailey just failed to spark (both have haino on vocals). his duo with mazzacane just isn't that great and it is bcz his music is so personal that he just can't quite adapt to others so fushitsusha can be phenomenal but they need to put in the rehearsal time (just like improvising units like amm, borbetomagus, lunge, SME) but even then there will be duds but when its good it is 'the best'.

And his solo stuff, as far as PSF goes, is pretty much on the mark. 'Affection' is a favourite of mine.

''what do you make of his hurdy-gurdy titles? and what were the haino titles that didn't grab you, julio? just out of interest.''

those I have yet to hear (one on PSF and one on tokuma).

I can't recall some of the titles bcz I sold 'em. There was one dbl alb on CD (one CD on hurgy gurdy, another on wavedrum) where i thought, again, there wasn't much spark. the vocals interplay and the gaps of silence just sounded too polite, i never felt on the edge of my seat on that one.

another CD: there was a 40 min guitar 'noise' track which didn't do it. he needs a rhythm section to keep him in check. I really feel this (though the last track on 'watashi dake' is great (the last of the extra three tracks), it's pretty corrosive and he somehow kept my interest on that).

''the most ridiculous thing about me raving about haino/fushitsusha is, when i was 17/18, i thought his stuff was the biggest pile of shit! or at least, very over-rated. ah, youth.''

I didn't hear them until i was 20 i think. what made you change yr mind?

another thing: I doube whether haino is even part of this avant garde. I know the wire write abt him and that he has collaborated with ppl like bailey and so on but really he is just this 'weirdo' who has worn black and has never been seen without his sunglasses evah and who can play some amazing guitar and sing.

haino solo is a prickly one, the PSF titles are probably the best (#7 is 'nijiumu', btw, but not the nijiumu album 'era of sad wings'), but there's some other great titles: 'tenshi no gijinka' and the new one 'c'est parfait ...' on turtle's dream are both rather amazing.<<<

Thanks Jon! I'm familiar with Eclipse. In fact I just finished placing an online order with Ed for 2 Rallizes discs & the new reissue of Mainliner's Mellow Out. Also, Ed only has one of the tokuma titles still in stock...

I'm already pretty sure that solo Haino is not a road I'm willing to tread. A CD consisting of only hurdy-gurdy, for instance, strikes me as amazingly dull & pretentious. Ditto for the percussion job on Forced Exposure. Likewise, the duos don;t appeal to me. A duo of vocals and sax sounds like it would be just annoying. And not in a good way. I am curious about the collaborations with Musica Transonic and Boris. Any thoughts anybody?? Also, I'd like someone's input regarding Purple Trap...

Dada said >>>I have "The Time Is Nigh" - it's so bad it's not funny. But then Haino is another one of these saints of the avant-garde who needs to be written about critically for ONCE in his life.<<<

I too have "The Time Is Nigh" & while it lacks the transcendent quality of, say, "Live" and "Live 2", it is certainly not bad. But then some people seem to think that if you don't say something negative or snotty about an artist, you cannot possibly have taste, judgement, or a sound musical knowledge base. This is not an attitude with which I concur.

Julio said >>>isn't ''The time is nigh'' where he is on vocals and there isn't much guitar?<<<

It is a bit more vocals-oriented than some releases, but there is plenty of guitar to chew on as well.

As it stands now, I'm thinking that I'll be attempting to snag all of the Fushitsusha titles except the one where its a duo. Leaving solo Haino alone. Jury's still out on other collaborations/bands...

there aren't many guitarists/singers who are as talented as him, who often do complete improv that is more often than not interesting to follow, and nevertheless isn't very tied to normal harmonic or [depending on his mood] rhythmic progression. ornette coleman stuff, which isn't very new anymore but still not very well explored.

lots of people do prefer his more rehearesed song-based stuff, but i'm not so sure that's his real bread and butter.

john - purple trap is a good example of what i'm talking about, and i think it's excellent.

Shit! I was looking to pick them up soon ... Ed at Eclipse is quite the amazing character.

Solo Haino is great; John B. is missing out. If you've got any interest in Fushitsusha or Haino at all, Watashi-Dake is completely essential. I also quite love the percussion disc on Tzadik. That is all. I really don't anything else to contribute, I just wanted to close the italics :)

I looked up in the discog page. that's the one below. I had forgotten abt the second track (again, didn't make much of an impression).

Keiji Haino
"Saying I love you, I continue to curse myself"
Blast First/Disobey - BFFP 109 - released 1996
compact disc - 2 tracks - 61 minutes 43 seconds
Keiji Haino (guitar, rudra vina, voice)

untitled guitar & voice (43:41)
untitled rudra vina & voice (17:57)

''i don't really know. not to sound disingenous, but it just 'clicked' at one point. i do tend to think that at 17/18 i wasn't really prepared enough for 'delving' into a record, particuarly w/someone like haino. i don't know if i'm really making sense here. sorry!''

s'OK! something similar happened with me and captain beefheart.

''As it stands now, I'm thinking that I'll be attempting to snag all of the Fushitsusha titles except the one where its a duo. Leaving solo Haino alone. Jury's still out on other collaborations/bands...''

well, I wouldn't. as diamond said you need some solo haino. juts get as much as you can on PSF (definetely all the early stuff, which has been killer so far for me) which is his home.

I'll get that if i can find it. thanks :-)

Well actually it's a lot simpler than that, I just think it sucks.

Also agree w/ Julio that Keiji's free jazz collabs are largely unsatisfying - you can add to the duds list the Purple Trap DBL on Tzadik w/ Rashied Ali and Bill Laswell, and the alb he made w/ Joey Baron and Greg Cohen - although the first (gtr) rec w/ Bailey throws up the odd nice surprise.

oh man i so NEED those!

hey bob, hopefully I'll see on friday for noxagt.

yeah and the prob with 'I saw it!' is that you can't hear much bass (though i thought the drums were OK). I'll try and get hold of 'caution'.

Keiji Haino and Derek Bailey
"Drawing Close, Attuning --The Respective Signs of Order and Chaos"
Tokuma Japan Communications - TKCF 77017 - released April 21, 1997
compact disc - 7 tracks - 75 minutes 25 seconds
Keiji Haino (guitar)
Derek Bailey (guitar)

I got a cdr of 'pathetique' this morning. can't wait to get home.

'S okay Bob, I'm the only person in the universe who hates it.

nowhere near as good as live 1 and 2 tho'.

Has anyone heard this one (Alan Cummings' review):

FUSHITSUSHA - "Eien no ho ga saki ni te o dashita no sa"

PSFD-8016 (CD) release date: 3rd May, 2003

From 1978, the earliest group recordings by Fushitsusha yet to be released. A vital document for understanding the Japanese underground and the truest, most exciting rock group of the contemporary era.

Now here¹s something unexpected and utterly fascinating. The earliest years of Fushitsusha have long been shrouded in mystery, palely illumined by only the dimmest of rumours and half-facts. As a live entity the group seems to have begun sometime in 1978 (also the year that Friction, Japan¹s first punk group formed), initially in a couple of strange duo line-ups, one of which included Tamio Shiraishi on synth. But soon after that it took on the familiar rock trio form, with Jun Hamano (of the legendary acid-splatter group Gaseneta) on bass, and a shady character called Takashima on drums. This version of the group lasted for about a year before falling apart, and documentation was pretty much non-existent. Until now.

On the usual all-black textured paper gatefold, the only distinguishing mark is a small silver "1978". Unchanging timelessness is one of Fushitsusha¹s most salient characteristics, and this release reveals that the group¹s radical dissection of rock rhythm, fracturing of attack and summoning of vibration was born entirely fully-formed. That the group has retained an identical level of intensity, experimentation and commitment for twenty-five years is a truly a testament to something. Either way, this is one more piece of a puzzle too vast to be grasped in its entirety by anyone other than Haino. And further proof, as if any was needed, that Fushitsusha are the most exciting rock group of the contemporary era.

For those that pay attention to such things, the title means something approximately like "It was eternity that reached out its hand first"

I like that story from the Faust interview in the Wire where the drummer explains how he accidentally hit Keiji Haino on the head with one of his metal drum sticks on account of his being really little.

just to take something out of context and run like hell with it, am i the only person who thinks haino's "watashi-dake" and jandek's "ready for the house" sound like they're related?

I have this. It's Zorn-produced (not Laswell). Some very interesting el. guitar ideas. The distortion and volume are definitely scaled back a bit from the typical Fushitsusha venture, but I daresay it still rocks.

the recent haino solo disc on psf, "to start with, let's remove the colour!", is fucking gorgeous ... incredibly quiet, muted, just an all-round worship.
beautiful.

some of them are a blur if i've listened to then once or twice or very background, but some i've really felt i connected with

one of the releases I feel i really connected with was Pathetique and i agree with Julio, don't bother, mostly dud tracks

the risk with many haino releases, or perhaps the gamble you take buying into his stuff,.. well to me it seems that there will often be a few very long tracks per album, and so one or two will really kick arse, but there will often be other filler/ ambient/ mood/ slow material or introductory material (for a live audience ie more concert is presented than necessary in the name of 'completeness')

he's out there on a limb with a lot of his performances which can include apparently improvised percussion and off-the-cuff vocals qua sound-- i agree that the duet with Brotzmann doesn't deliver, and although they might well have recorded many Brotzmann encounters i think some of those will not be released given Brotzmann's own standards and editorial perspective

it reminds me of a track that was actually a rehearsal between yoko ono and ornette coleman that ono felt important enough to release under her own name, a "meeting" that coleman has never referred to himself

there is deliberate building of mystique (marketing) here, an annoying lack of information about which perfomances come from when and where in many cases

how come this guy releases two batches of 4 cds on an expensive label like Tokuma and is able to issue all these other recordings on labels like PSF and all the other incidental ones ? and why so many un-dated live recording in so shorer time ? how much of this material actually has more of an archival element ? (because i suspect more of it has been recorded over a period less immediate than is admitted)

is this the ultimate limited edition gig ? is it a private bet with Merzbow to see which of these guys (whose Japanese 'private income' status has to be assumed, doesn't it ?) can produce the most cds ?

i don't think releasing so much is a bad thing if everybody could afford to feel thay weren't missing out somehere -- release it all and let him be judged on that, a new strategy, perhaps justifiable from within a certain economic period from within the IT growth bubble and the new cheapness and ubiquity of cds, but hard on fans (cf: "collectors")

i think editorial intervention _is_ needed (as with everybody else), and i say that most of his fans will say "oh yeah, that cd has that great track [GHJKL] on it"

because this sort of release schedule so early in his recording career is unprecedented in most jazz i've had experience with, and certainly doesn't happen in other musics i know about (except perhaps the "NY/New England 500 club")

there is less concern about "costs" than with any of the jazz greats (all the posthumous Coltrane and Parker releases of live tapes lost sessions etc. etc. only emerged years later once record companies knew that there was a safe bedrock of fans to sell all this stuff by the same guy too, ie they knew there was a fanatical fanbase already in place, which in the case of those guys has grown over the last 40 years, and the same can be said for all the Braxton and Lacy records, as their record companies slowly but surely learnt these guys were bankable, and underwrite all the one-off cd-pressings by reminding fans that they _are_ limited editions of typically 1000-5000).

it makes all those SYR "side project label" releases seem modest

Yeah I love that album. I think I said something on the other Fushitsusha thread about it being the best way of hearing their unique sense of rhythm. A lot of fans don't like it much because of the clean sound (provided by Zorn not Laswell - lets not scare the punters away).

just to take something out of context and run like hell with it, am i the only person who thinks haino's "watashi-dake" and jandek's "ready for the house" sound like they're related?

Yes yes yes! They're both stripped-down desolate sounding rock'n'roll records with amazing senses of space. Two of my favourite records ever.

haha george here's what i said abt it: ''and the title track is a bit of a monster but you can't hear much bass as haino is filling the whole thing with wall to wall 'circular' noise but the drummer does manage to keep up.''

pathethique is a really good guitar/drums duo but, just like 'I saw it!' on paratactile, i couldn't hear much bass (this is from one listen of patehethique so far BTW). the first track's riff was actually wondeful. second/third was a bit 'meh' but it might grow on me (though you could be right). I didn't say 'don't bother'.

''the risk with many haino releases, or perhaps the gamble you take buying into his stuff,.. well to me it seems that there will often be a few very long tracks per album, and so one or two will really kick arse''

watashi dake has 10 short tracks (+3 extra tracks, one of which is 30 mins of guitar noise). they all kick ass. 'affection' is one 50 min track. that kicks ass too. Live 2 has 10-15 min tracks and they all do the bizness. but you could be right as far as much of his stuff on other labels but as i said PSF is his home.

''just to take something out of context and run like hell with it, am i the only person who thinks haino's "watashi-dake" and jandek's "ready for the house" sound like they're related?

Yes yes yes! They're both stripped-down desolate sounding rock'n'roll records with amazing senses of space. Two of my favourite records ever.''

another jandek reminder then! must get hold of stuff by this guy. must get round to it!

yeah sure i know there are differences (I've read enuf jandek threads to get an idea) but thanks anyway.

''o man, julio, i'm way behind on this but i had the house free and i cranked 3/4 today and...can i thank you enough? phew...''

heh, you've been burned then. good to know you liked it.

All of the Fushitsusha records I have heard are good. Some (most) of them are terrific. 'Withdrawe...' doesn't do much for me, nor does 'Allegorical...', though it is growing on me. The following positively scorch the neurons in their severe fantastictude: 'Live I'(WOW!),'Live II'(WOW!!), 'The Caution Appears,' Pathetique,' 'The Wisdom Prepared,' 'I Saw It!...(also WOW)' 'The Time Is Nigh,' 'A Death Never to Be Complete.' I have yet to hear 'Origin's Hesitation' & 'It Was Eternity...'

I have also at least scratched the surface on solo Haino, and have found most of it to be really good as well. The solo things tend to be a bit more 'experimental,' for lack of a better term (less 'rock'? More avant-garde?). I, unlike some of the good folks above, absolutely adore the guitar noise blast that is the 1st track on 'Saying I Love You...' and the rudra vina/vocals cut is good as well. A winner. 'Execration That Accept to Knowledge' is also a wonderful guitar blow-out. 'Struthi Box' is an absolutely gorgeous gem of a drone piece. Acquire it somehow. 'I Said, This is the Son of Nihilism' is another righteous guitar swirlbomb. 'Beginning & End, Interwoven' is reminiscent of the fabulous 'Watashi Dake,' discussed at length above. Ditto for 'A Challenge to Fate,' though it is a bit more 'difficult' and eclectic. 'Nijiumu' presents a nice blurry wash of fuzzy, reverby guitar. Nice. Wouldn't be out of place in the Tarentel or Landing catalogue. There is yet more to peruse.

With respect to collaborations: I love the Musica Transonic and Boris things. Likewise, the record with LAFMS stalwarts The Doo-dooettes is wonderful. The Mazzacane discs didn't do much for me, as I found them...well, dull, quite frankly. But then Mazzacane tends toward a plinky-plonky noodling style that I don't particularly care for. The remainder of the collaborations remain unexplored.

Non-Fushitsusha bands: The only Vajra I like is 'Sichisiki.' It rips, and has the occasional silly, over-the-top vocal passage courtesy of Kan Mikami. I have yet to hear Lost Araaf, Black Stage, and Ahiyo. If I am forgetting some, I haven't heard them either.

Thanks to those above who encouraged me to plow into the solo Haino catalogue. It has been most rewarding indeed.

Also, I interviewed Haino once (through a translator) and he told me that though the live gig Fushitsusha played with Peter Brotzmann back in the late 80s/early 90s was recorded, the recording was not of sufficient quality (sound-wise) to merit release. Sorry, folks...doomed to be a legend forever.

this is kinda funny given all the stuff that is 'poor quality' sound-wise that has gotten a release. somehow i think this will be released someday.

but I also though that brotzmann toured japan in the mid-90s and he recorded a gig with fushitsusha (of course brotzmann and haino released a duo on psf, as i mentioned on a haino thread (maybe this one no time to check) but i wasn't that keen on that one).

never heard abt that haino/amm thing.

*bump*

The 2 duo discs with Tatsuya Yoshida are da bomb. I found the solo nylon-string guitar release to be a bit dull. Both interpretations of Black Blues are very good, but I prefer the heavy one. I go back-and-forth on the theremin joint. Pretty cool, I guess. All in all the Keiji Haino releases since this thread ground to a halt have been respectable additions to the canon.