Taking Sides: Journey vs Toto vs REO Stationwagon

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Who would prevail in this donnybrook?
Me personally, I hope this battle to the death leaves NO Survivors.
Subthread: These three bands (I call them the Axis of Eeeeevil) along with Styx are, as far as I'm concerned, failed attempts to merge 70s Psuedo-jazzy Pop Metal (such as Chicago) with 60s-70s Loungey Symp Pop* (such as Barry Manilow)
(*no that doesn't mean Symphonic...it means Sympering.)
and WE HATESSESS THEM....

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Monday, 12 May 2003 02:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh like there's even a contest.

Journey
Journey
JOURNEY

― My name is Kenny (My name is Kenny), Monday, 12 May 2003 02:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Loverboy.

― mte, Monday, 12 May 2003 02:53 (twenty-two years ago)

grrr hisss mte has mentioned that horror that should not be named....
thats 5 billion years of bad luck, son.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Monday, 12 May 2003 02:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Def. Journey. Don't stop believing. Hang on to that feeling.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Monday, 12 May 2003 03:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Heaven is a funky moose.

― paul cox (paul cox), Monday, 12 May 2003 03:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Toto is actually responsible for two songs I like better than anything done by the rest of these folks (namely, Africa and Rosanna). But I'm not exactly handing out prizes for this achievement.

― Paul in Santa Cruz (Paul in Santa Cruz), Monday, 12 May 2003 03:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Do the 30 I've already had count?

Come on, nobody wore red leather pants as well as Mike Reno did.

― mte, Monday, 12 May 2003 03:05 (twenty-two years ago)

"Africa" is a great song. But not as good as "Separate Ways".

― Ally (mlescaut), Monday, 12 May 2003 03:07 (twenty-two years ago)

call me a hetero...but whats the point of a GUY wearing leather pants.
Is there a single woman in the world who finds that even remotely sexy?
Rod Stewart ruined red pants for everybody if you ask me.

Jim Morrison could've pull this off for two reasons:
ONE) He has the common sense to wear normal leather, not red mutant plastic disguised as leather.
TWO) He's Jim Morrison.
But he can't now. He's dead, and that leaves only Iggy Pop and Jim's corpse as the only MAN who could've worn leather pants and make it look sexy.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Monday, 12 May 2003 03:11 (twenty-two years ago)

This is a very important thread in ILM history:

Is that a man's ass or a woman's ass on the cover of Loverboy's Get Lucky?

To answer the question, Journey by a mile.

― Adam A. (Keiko), Monday, 12 May 2003 03:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Journey wins, but honorable mention goes to REO for the drum syncopation on the chorus of "Keep on Loving You."

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 12 May 2003 03:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Journey > REO Speedwagon > Toto

― James Blount (James Blount), Monday, 12 May 2003 03:19 (twenty-two years ago)

The guitarist from the Immortal Lee County Killers had on leather pants last night. The woman I was with said it was a great look.

I'm not sure i trust her judgment, but she is a woman and she likes leather pants. If I'd had any foresight, I would have asked about red ones.

― mte, Monday, 12 May 2003 03:21 (twenty-two years ago)

some fucker in my fourth grade talent show did "I Can't Fight This Feeling Anymore" AND WON ! - (I did "Material Girl"=I wuz robbed)

― James Blount (James Blount), Monday, 12 May 2003 03:22 (twenty-two years ago)

"I Can't Fight This Feeling Anymore"

Not as good as "I Want to Know What Love Is." Can we enter Foreigner into this battle? Hey, why not?

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Monday, 12 May 2003 03:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Can we enter Foreigner into this battle? Hey, why not?

"Before we do, you'll have to get away from you know who"

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 12 May 2003 03:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Does anyone want to tackle the rambling theory in the subthread?

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Monday, 12 May 2003 03:40 (twenty-two years ago)

I'll bite, but first... why do you consider them "failed attempts"?

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 12 May 2003 03:42 (twenty-two years ago)

A greater song about love than "I Want To Know What Love Is" has never been and never will be written.

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Monday, 12 May 2003 03:45 (twenty-two years ago)

why do you consider them "failed attempts"?
becuase those three bands sound cheesy, horrid and weak.
A successful merger would sound good.

It would have the hormonal overthrust of metal, the chin-stroking appeal of jazz (especially for those who do a better impersonation of Jazz Rock than Chicago did), and the genuine passion of a good love ballad.
REO Speedbimbo, Toto and Journey have neither of the former qualities. They have mastered the drippy Barry Manilow aspect...not that this is a good thing.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Monday, 12 May 2003 03:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Can we enter Foreigner into this battle? Hey, why not?

Because I started a Journey vs. Foriegner thread last year.

― paul cox (paul cox), Monday, 12 May 2003 03:52 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't really hear "jazz rock" in any of these bands -- Journey and Toto appear to have a doo-wop influence though ("Lovin', Touchin', Squeezin'" and "Rosanna," respectively), as does Billy Joel, who would probably be a more apt analog than Barry Manilow (Manilow is a showbiz schmaltzkateer who knows his audience; Joel aspires to a higher art but basically is his audience, i.e. he's an overachieving, self-hating bar mitzvah boy who craves attention and approval and reassurance -- but hey HE WENT TO THE CITY ONCE TOO and came back and wrote "Uptown Girl"). So I guess there's a patina of would-be (or wishful) "bohemianism" atop the collective sum of Journey/Toto/REO's suburban piano recitals.

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 12 May 2003 04:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Journey's pre-Perry records were sort of fusion oriented, and Toto was comprised entirely of fusion session goons.

― paul cox (paul cox), Monday, 12 May 2003 04:15 (twenty-two years ago)

plus for Journey: "don't stop believin'," "anyway you want it"
minus for Journey: "wheel in the sky," steve perry's mullet and solo career

plus for Toto: "roseanna" and "hold the line" are nice songs. zappa made fun of them (on joe's garage).
minus for Toto: notwithstanding the foregoing, everything they did epitomizes seventies el-lay blandness -- they make the eagles sound exciting.

plus for REO Speedwagon: eh?
minus for REO Speedwagon: they're still rockin' the state fair circuit ... and kevin cronyn wouldn't shut up or leave when howard stern was trying to interview zappa one fine eighties morning

― Tad (llamasfur), Monday, 12 May 2003 04:22 (twenty-two years ago)

(and Neal Schon and Gregg Rolie played w/ Santana)

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 12 May 2003 04:23 (twenty-two years ago)

I guess I don't think of fusion when I think "jazz-rock" though -- I think of brass-band stuff like CTA and BST and Ten Wheel Drive.

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 12 May 2003 04:24 (twenty-two years ago)

I guess a distinction could be made between the two subgenres, but I've always been too lazy.

(Coincidentally, I've been listening to Chicago Transit Authority all day)

― paul cox (paul cox), Monday, 12 May 2003 04:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Journey's pre-Perry records were sort of fusion oriented, and Toto was comprised entirely of fusion session goons.
I guess a distinction could be made between the two subgenres, but I've always been too lazy.
Doesn't true Fusion require somebody with actual skill, soul and funk to be playing a hot clarinet or sax at the front of the mix; whereas Jazz-Rock just squirts ("jazzy"|"jazz-like"|"jazzoid"|"jazzmac") things all over the mix, indiscriminately.
or maybe:
Fusion == Miles Davis pretending to be the Kinks
Jazz-Rock == Al Kooper pretending to be John Coltrane

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Monday, 12 May 2003 10:57 (twenty-two years ago)

fusion:

http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drc500/c510/c51041697j0.jpg

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 12 May 2003 15:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Jazz-Rock == Al Kooper pretending to be John Coltrane

No. Duke Ellington, maybe. Jazz-rock is all about meticulously arranged horn charts!

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 12 May 2003 15:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Boston. But if you're really serious about this, and actually like this style enough to not just be pissing on all three, I believe REO Speedwagon made two whole good records (You Can Tune a Piano, But You Can't Tuna Fish; Hi Infidelity), while neither Journey nor Toto ever held it together for a whole album. I'd rank Kansas over Journey, and Styx over Toto. Foreigner, however, is different.

― ara, Monday, 12 May 2003 15:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Journey easy, though I only like half the stuff on their Greatest Hits album ("Don't Stop Believin'," "Anyway You Want It," "Only The Young," umm...probably one or two others). Nothing I've heard by the other groups have ever done much for me, though in reality I've heard very little Toto.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 12 May 2003 16:18 (twenty-two years ago)

JOURNEY! May Steve Perry smite thee non-believers!

― jel -- (jel), Monday, 12 May 2003 16:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, Toto vs Journey is good, but REO doesn't fit. Should be Toto vs Journey vs Santana vs Chicago.

― dleone (dleone), Monday, 12 May 2003 16:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Journey are pretty useless beyond the Greatest Hits LP, which is maybe half great. (Steve Perry's solo album is okay, too, more for "Foolish Heart," though, where he REALLY channels Sam Cooke, than for "Oh Sherrie," which is nice but not as great as its video used to be.) Toto made one GREAT album (their second, *Hydra*), one pretty good one (their first one), and I guess "Africa." So: REO Speedwagon, no contest. Best song: "Golden Country," which is one of history's all-time great political metal songs. Best album: *Hi Infidelity,* espcially for the songs that sound more convincingly like '60s garage rock than anything the Datsuns or D4 will ever do. But *REO Two* and *Tuna Fish* are also worth owning; a real smart place to start would be the two-album best-of comp *Decade of Rock and Roll, 1970-1980.*

― chuck, Monday, 12 May 2003 16:47 (twenty-two years ago)

"Oh Sherrie," which is nice but not as great as its video used to be

What about the flaming Forest of Doom, Steve? What about the Battle to the Death Between Good and Eeeeevil, Steve?

― Joe (Joe), Monday, 12 May 2003 17:58 (twenty-two years ago)

I really like how Steve Perry sings "In the heat with a blue jean girl/Burning love comes once in a lifetime" in "Stone In Love".

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Tuesday, 13 May 2003 09:03 (twenty-two years ago)

"I don't really hear "jazz rock" in any of these bands -- Journey and Toto appear to have a doo-wop influence though ("Lovin', Touchin', Squeezin'" and "Rosanna," respectively)"

I definitely hear traces of jazz-rock in Toto's "Rosanna" - that little horn signature right before the chorus.

― mike a (mike a), Tuesday, 13 May 2003 13:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Toto were actually talented, and came up with several great songs. I'd go for Toto here, although if put up against Foreigner and Boston, I'd have more trouble choosing between them.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Tuesday, 13 May 2003 19:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Chuck's championing of REO herein is yet another reason why I can't ever agree with anything he says.

Anyway, Journey.

― J (Jay), Tuesday, 13 May 2003 19:38 (twenty-two years ago)

"I don't really hear "jazz rock" in any of these bands

There are definitely fusion influences in songs like "Georgy Porgy" and "Africa".

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Tuesday, 13 May 2003 19:46 (twenty-two years ago)

I'll take Toto here, but Supertramp beats em all anyway

― blutroniq (blutroniq), Tuesday, 13 May 2003 20:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Toto should to stick to movie soundtracks. The closing credits of Dune was the only thing they've ever done that didn't inspire revulsion in me.

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Tuesday, 13 May 2003 21:49 (twenty-two years ago)

What's the name of the song that goes "Heard it from friend who heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend that you've messing around"? I think that's the only REO Speedwagon song I know. It's OK. I think "Africa" is the only Toto song I know. It's OK at best. Escape actually has a lot of good songs on it. I like "Any Way You Want It" too. The first Loverboy album is OK. They had some classic singles for sure. The second album, from what I remember, sucks except for the hit. Boston was so much better than this stuff that there's no point even comparing. It's really too bad that they were so formulaic. They had the potential to be like the greatest band ever if they'd just come up with a few more ideas. Supertramp seems way too different stylistically to compare but they were actually a quality band, though I don't really care to listen to them most of the time now. Foreigner hits are almost all total shit, with big choruses but total nothing verses. "I Want To Know What Love Is" is all right I guess but there's no way it makes up for "Head Games", which is one of the only songs of the style that actually repulses me. I like a number of songs on Styx's Classics comp.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Wednesday, 14 May 2003 00:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Wow, Sundar is so wrong about Foreigner I'm not even gonna start -- "Dirty White Boy" and "Urgent" and "Headknocker" rank with any hard rock of the past quarter-century, easy. The second Loverboy album is better than he remembers, too; "Emotional", for instance, is one of history's all-time great Rolling Stones imitations. Styx and Journey, both of whom were often pretty good, just have too much angelic-boy-choir/too little actual rock'n'roll in them for me to totally love them, I guess. And the REO song he quoted is "Take it On the Run." And Streetheart, Prism, Night Ranger, and Shooting Star (maybe Saga too; I forget) are as good as LOTS OF these bands, but never mind. And oh yeah, Boston were no more "formulaic" than Motorhead or the Ramones (which isn't to say I care about anything after their second album, but those first two are just about flawless--fine with me.)

― chuck, Wednesday, 14 May 2003 00:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Which one did the Transformers OST?

― Adam A. (Keiko), Wednesday, 14 May 2003 00:59 (twenty-two years ago)

And the REO song he quoted is "Take it On the Run."

That's it. I had the chorus in my head there...

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 14 May 2003 01:08 (twenty-two years ago)

reo chuckwagon did have one good lyric ... "they think they're full of fire/she thinks they're full of shit"

― Tad (llamasfur), Wednesday, 14 May 2003 01:24 (twenty-two years ago)

p.s. to my post from last night: ONE way Boston were more rock'n'roll than Journey or Styx (despite being just as frilly and fancy on top) is that they weren't afraid to put "Louie Louie" or Stooges rhythms underneath. THAT's what's missing from Journey/Styx. (Not from REO or Foreigner, though. Both of whom could still be real pretty anyway.)

(Weirdly, Styx seemed to be best at mimicking Kraftwerk/Devo/synth-pop type beats, in "Mr. Roboto" and "Too Much Time On My Hands," not to mention Tommy Shaw's solo "Girls With Guns," a better single than Styx ever did. Like Rush, they improved vastly when they sold out to new wave. Foreigner could be really new wavey, too, obviously. And the rhythm in Lou Gramm's great solo single "Midnight Blue" comes straight from "I Feel Love" by Donna Summer, believe it or not.)

― chuck, Wednesday, 14 May 2003 14:50 (twenty-two years ago)

"Midnight Blue" is such a great single, I hear "I Feel Love" in the chorus but the verses are more "Stranded in the Jungle"

― James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 14 May 2003 14:53 (twenty-two years ago)

I still want to hear REM's cover of that. Gramm's video was atrocious but the song indeed was pretty sweet.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 14 May 2003 14:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Man, I do not get the love for "I Want to Know What Love Is" at ALL.

― My name is Kenny (My name is Kenny), Wednesday, 14 May 2003 15:53 (twenty-two years ago)

NB I think Boston was much better than the Ramones, probably better than Motorhead too. (Although I mostly know Motorhead by their live show from last year and I was exhausted by the time they went on. My friend agreed with me, though, that Voivod and Morbid Angel pretty much blew them off stage.) I agree that they obviously had a much more solid harder-rocking foundation than Journey or Styx. (Like I said, there's no point even comparing.) Dunno if I really hear the Stooges rhythms though.

The biggest problems with Styx, going by that one comp, were the weakness of the musicianship when they tried to pull off longer solos and stuff and how fucking cheap they were. (Has anyone ever used worse keyboard sounds than on "Fooling Yourself" or "Put Me On"? Why didn't they spring for a real choir instead of the keyboard preset on "Suite Madame Blue"? Why didn't Radiohead do the same for "Paranoid Android"?) I think I'd still take SMB or "Blue Collar Man" over "Mr Roboto" or "Too Much Time", maybe not over "Don't Let It End" or "The Best Of Times".

Rush was at their best when they went fusion but I don't know how much post-Moving Pictures stuff I'd want to listen to (assuming the "sellout to new wave" = Signals not Permanent Waves - otherwise you may be right). Would you really take "Scars" or even "New World Man" over "A Farewell to Kings" or "Xanadu"?

I actually don't remember the Foreigner/Gramm songs you mention. I was probably too hard on them.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Wednesday, 14 May 2003 15:56 (twenty-two years ago)

NB I only really know the Ramones by the Loud, Fast comp.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Wednesday, 14 May 2003 16:00 (twenty-two years ago)

I do not get the love for "I Want to Know What Love Is" at ALL.

I do, but others can put it better than me. It's this big ol' sweeping statement of stuffage that actually works because it is a Big Sweeping Statement, aurally. You know, the Meat Loaf/Jim Steinman factor, but without rock.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 14 May 2003 16:37 (twenty-two years ago)

. . . Boston was much better than the Ramones, probably better than Motorhead too.

Wow.

I have never disagreed with anything more than I disagree with this. I'd trade a single song by the Ramones for the entire recorded works of Boston without the slightest hesitation.

― J (Jay), Wednesday, 14 May 2003 17:18 (twenty-two years ago)

>>Dunno if I really hear the Stooges rhythms though.<<

There's definitely a song on one of those first two Boston albums with a really blatant "I Wanna Be Your Dog" undertow to it -- I'm thinking it might be "It's Easy" on *Don't Look Back,* but maybe I'm wrong about the specific song. Somebody should check and let us know.

>>Rush was at their best when they went fusion but I don't know how much post-Moving Pictures stuff I'd want to listen to (assuming the "sellout to new wave" = Signals not Permanent Waves - otherwise you may be right). Would you really take "Scars" or even "New World Man" over "A Farewell to Kings" or "Xanadu"?<<

I think their most listenable LPs by far are *Permanent Waves,* *Moving Pictures,* and *Signals*, 1980-82, when they were seemingly trying to be the Police or Devo or whatever. I'd definitely take "SUBDIVISIONS" over "A Farewell to Kings" or "Xanadu," no contest. It's beautiful, and reminds me of "Suburbia" by the Pet Shop Boys, which counts for a lot.(Wasn't "Scars" years later? I forget.)

― chuck, Wednesday, 14 May 2003 17:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Let me second "Subdivisions" here. In fact the live version on A Show of Hands (that was the live album after Hold Your Fire, yes?) is probably my favorite song and performance by them ever.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 14 May 2003 18:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, I do really like "Subdivisions" - I'd probably still take AFTK but that's me - but I think that's more the exception than the rule for synthpop Rush. If you're just talking about those three albums, though, your position is much more understandable, Chuck.

Did that live album come out around 1988? I remember a live album being all over the radio and MuchMusic when I was 9 or 10.

J: Oh well.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Wednesday, 14 May 2003 18:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Yep, around 1988. Trying to remember the single from it..."Marathon"?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 14 May 2003 19:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, that was a really big one. I actually liked that song at that age! But I remember hearing lots of it on the radio at the time. Our AOR station was still pretty AO. e.g. "Spirit Of Radio" with the live applause after ". . . concert halls", etc.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Wednesday, 14 May 2003 19:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Foreigner always sounded anemic to me. Like the riffs were great efforts towards a rocking song but there were lots of dead moments, owing to the production. They had some nice synth riffs too but their songs just stand still. Oh except for "I Wanna Know What Love Is" which is pretty good for a song that has absolutely no surprises in it whatsoever; like the part where the vocal melody suddenly shifts to double the rhythm section exactly, just before the chorus. It's effective, but it's like laughing at a bad sitcom.

I think actually buying a REO or Journey album would remove some of the lustre from their great singles. But maybe it would give me an increased respect for these bands. Which d'ya think?

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 14 May 2003 19:18 (twenty-two years ago)

"BYTOR AND THE SNOW DOG" ROXX U R ALL etc

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 14 May 2003 19:40 (twenty-two years ago)

one month passes...

Toto by a landslide.
Does anyone even remember the mindblowing operatic crescendo that took place in David Lynch's Dune when Paul Atreides rode the mega-sandworm. Toto scored that! Plus, there's a great Eno song on the same CD. Victory by association.

― Felcher (Felcher), Monday, 16 June 2003 20:19 (twenty-two years ago)

six years pass...

minus for Journey: "wheel in the sky," steve perry's mullet and solo career

i was very wrong about "wheel in the sky" -- if anyone cares.

― NJ4L (Eisbaer), Friday, 1 January 2010 20:22 (sixteen years ago)

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