That's it! The only ism I want to come out of your mouths is jism. Overacademic Bullshit Must Die.

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Inspired by the Franks and the Furters on here. You kill me with your elitist tripe!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 19 May 2003 00:43 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.limpbizkit.com/uploaded_media/Fred%20Pose%204.jpg

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 19 May 2003 00:47 (twenty-two years ago)

is miccio calz?

― James Blount (James Blount), Monday, 19 May 2003 00:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Jamesy, evidently I stand by my insane rants. I hide under no alias! Nevuhr! Except for that one time I pretended I was Keanu Reeves to hit on Ned.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 19 May 2003 00:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Sterling Clover vs. me! FITE!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 19 May 2003 00:50 (twenty-two years ago)

I've got my 45 on so I can ROCK ON!

― Sheryl Crow (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 19 May 2003 00:51 (twenty-two years ago)

I dunnae think you are going about picking up your dreamboy Ned the right way, young Miccio.

Best thread ever by the way.

― Ally (mlescaut), Monday, 19 May 2003 00:52 (twenty-two years ago)

And most of the insane academicism I see these days is edited by Chuck "Stairway To Hell" Eddy. wtf? For this old school soldier busting out the hot shit putting bounce in the mosh pit this is all just sad, sad, sad.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 19 May 2003 00:56 (twenty-two years ago)

damn, I gotta go sing "Beast Of Burden" at the Last Cowboy (it's Karoake night!). Please feel free to discuss why so many people here feel the need to dress up their thoughts in elitist, impenetrable prose in my absence.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 19 May 2003 01:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Gee. Somebody's mad at their professor this week. LOL

― maria b (maria b), Monday, 19 May 2003 01:12 (twenty-two years ago)

I only notice one person doing that. Bad writing isn't always intentional.

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 19 May 2003 01:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Poor Durst. I think there's a nude pic of him on the net somewhere... I should google search and come back. Let's compare Durst with Momus and see who's got the bigger dick? Intellectuals or id-driven frat rockers.... Sorry, the horn dog's coming out of me on a Sunday night. Aw hell.

― maria b (maria b), Monday, 19 May 2003 01:16 (twenty-two years ago)

but anthony we've all seen your picture

― Chip Morningstar (bob), Monday, 19 May 2003 01:22 (twenty-two years ago)

man you namedrop gramsci once and...

[haha wait'll they get a load of my bakhtin and jay-z piece in the reader!]

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 19 May 2003 02:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Sterling, they're all going to start kicking your ass pretty soon, I mean the amount of people who bitched about your Bakhtin obsession apropos of nothing at my birthday was shocking! I didn't even realize you had an obsession!

― Ally (mlescaut), Monday, 19 May 2003 02:12 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah but in this piece i make him sexy and somewhat disturbing.

god i am such a stereotype.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 19 May 2003 02:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Welcome to the club!

― Ally (mlescaut), Monday, 19 May 2003 02:26 (twenty-two years ago)

This thread vaguely disturbs my tender, innocent soul.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 19 May 2003 02:29 (twenty-two years ago)

A mere aporia of doxic return.

― Momus (Momus), Monday, 19 May 2003 02:32 (twenty-two years ago)

people talked about sterling???? a conversation i fortunately missed...

(sterling, stop trying to blame everything on gramsci!)

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Monday, 19 May 2003 02:41 (twenty-two years ago)

you fucks wits Sterling you fucks wits me! buh-lee dat!

― Fyvush 'bacdafucup' Finkel (James Blount), Monday, 19 May 2003 02:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, Yanc3y, you were one of them, you lying fuck!

James just won this thread.

― Ally (mlescaut), Monday, 19 May 2003 02:55 (twenty-two years ago)

I will bitch about Sterling's Gramsci and Bakhtin obsession if it means he'll explain Gramsci and Bahtkin to me. Or at least Bakhtin in particular.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Monday, 19 May 2003 03:05 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm this close to buying a Kuhn book

― James Blount (James Blount), Monday, 19 May 2003 03:08 (twenty-two years ago)

I might be wrong, but:
Gramsci = The Clash's "Garageland"
Bakhtin = Xtina's "Beautiful"
Miccio = ?

― b.R.A.d. (Brad), Monday, 19 May 2003 03:39 (twenty-two years ago)

...Good Charlotte, "Riot Grrl"

― Ally (mlescaut), Monday, 19 May 2003 03:42 (twenty-two years ago)

clover is just trying to rewrite aesthetics of rock without the laugh track.

― jack cole (jackcole), Monday, 19 May 2003 03:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Tim -- have you read him? he's rilly easy and fun.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 19 May 2003 04:42 (twenty-two years ago)

i hate carnivals, the cotton candy sticks in my teeth.

― Dave M. (rotten03), Monday, 19 May 2003 05:08 (twenty-two years ago)

"Tim -- have you read him? he's rilly easy and fun."

No - my post-marxist theory class did like one theorist per week (such that i'm shaky on Gramsci anyway) and I am too lazy to like actually study these guys for fun, even though it is fun. But where should I start if hypothetically I was going to? it might make understanding In Review easier anyway.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Monday, 19 May 2003 05:18 (twenty-two years ago)

collection of essays called "The Dialogic Imagination"

not that i've really talked about him on there actually, & i dunno when i'll get the time to talk about him RIGHT. he's got all these fragments of ideas which spin out and suggest things about talking about music which need to be totally fleshed out and flipped and etc. if they're going to make sense in that context. its all in the way he breaks things that seemed fixed open and the questions he suggests asking.

a-and I've never even *read* him on the Carnival. it seems like another of those things where people take one fragmentary concept from a dude and turn it into his "thing" coz the body of work is too complex. Cf. vygotsky and the zone of proximal development or hell derrida and "deconstruction" or d&g and rhizomes or etc.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 19 May 2003 05:43 (twenty-two years ago)

i haven't read him either, but i read Stallybrass & White on Bakhtin on Rabelais, and the ideas they used seemed U + K enough.

HAHAHA THIS THREAD HAS TURNED INTO A DISCUSSION OF BAKHTIN!!!!

― Dave M. (rotten03), Monday, 19 May 2003 05:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Your jism comes out your mouth? I'd see a urologist. Now.

― Jamie Conway (Jamie Conway), Monday, 19 May 2003 06:21 (twenty-two years ago)

[not exactly jamie. someone else's does. after it has been deposited there.]

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 19 May 2003 06:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Prefer ice cream myself, but whatever takes yer fancy, Sterling.

― Jamie Conway (Jamie Conway), Monday, 19 May 2003 06:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Sterling, you *should* read him on the carnival. Rabelais and his world is fascinating, all group-identity (which raises all these questions about whether watching live music is the modern equivalent, whether it's the crowd you lose yourself in or the sound... okay, maybe that's just me) and scatological humour as representative of the medieval lack of a body-soul divide.

Uh. Anyway.

― cis (cis), Monday, 19 May 2003 06:51 (twenty-two years ago)

You know, last night I found myself pondering wondering if scatological humour *was* representative of the medieval lack of a body-soul divide and it occurred to me that the current fetishisation of Eminem was indicative of a similar schism in the current psychosocial id, that this was a hangover from the post-structuralist contempt for modernism and that only deconstructionism could counter this rampant puritanism. Further, the last concert I was at confirmed to me that the live experience is about absoprtion into a glutinous mass of conformist thought, and that my singing in unison with the other five people there wasn't joyous release but a sinister surrender of my individuality to an inferior body politic.

Then I realised I was thinking of a load of shite and went back to dreaming about Halle Berry.

If you must be "intellectual," read some Milan Kundera. He's at least funny.

― Jamie Conway (Jamie Conway), Monday, 19 May 2003 07:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Not anymore he ain't.

― James Blount (James Blount), Monday, 19 May 2003 07:25 (twenty-two years ago)

is there anything dumber than whining that about things not being dumbed down enough?

― James Blount (James Blount), Monday, 19 May 2003 07:28 (twenty-two years ago)

I know Wal-Mart's stopped selling the lad mags and Man Show's wrapped but christ stop being such crybabies

― James Blount (James Blount), Monday, 19 May 2003 07:29 (twenty-two years ago)

who wants to be < scare quote > intellectual < / scare quote >? i just like book learnin.

― Dave M. (rotten03), Monday, 19 May 2003 07:31 (twenty-two years ago)

http://images.ibsys.com/2002/1101/1754382.jpg
"This thread is like, disturbing, n' stuff."

― Kingfish (Kingfish), Monday, 19 May 2003 11:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Shit yo, they're all right about Sterling, he does turn every thread into a discussion of Bakhtin. I thought it was lies!

― Ally (mlescaut), Monday, 19 May 2003 13:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Miccio, don't they offer cultural studies classes at PSU? Just take a class on the Frankfurt School and you'll be spouting this shit all day long...

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Monday, 19 May 2003 14:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Never been a big fan of hifaultin' lexicons, even when I took the damn classes. Some words are valuable, some ain't. I don't think I'm complaining things aren't dumbed down, unless Yes is "smarter" than AC/DC. I also think ILM has been way boring and wanted to be a wicked firestarter. Glad Sterling has a sense o' humor 'bout it.

And it's "Riot Girl," not "Riot Grrl." Good Charlotte can spell.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 19 May 2003 21:38 (twenty-two years ago)

"My friend the dialogicist..."

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 19 May 2003 21:56 (twenty-two years ago)

miccio in lame controversial stance shocker

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 19 May 2003 21:59 (twenty-two years ago)

the online dictionary wouldn't tell me what dialogicist is. Two words to try and get at why I stand by my lame controversial stance: Mark Leyner.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 19 May 2003 22:06 (twenty-two years ago)

yes *is* smarter than ac/dc

― mark s (mark s), Monday, 19 May 2003 22:36 (twenty-two years ago)

but smart doesnt necessarily equal "quality music"

― jack cole (jackcole), Monday, 19 May 2003 22:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Skipping 296 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

i mainly throw that burke quote around bcz
a. it strikes as funny (given the way i write)
b. it's a very clear idea clearly expressed!! (hence presumably "little" in burke's eyes so WHY DOES HE THINK IT'S IMPORTANT))

Miccio's basic (ie "little"-as-in-core) idea — that good writing is better than bad writing — makes obvious well-duh sense, and actually *no one* here is seriously arguing against it (there's argument about what automatically constitutes bad writing, but even there there's cavetas being thrown around).

So here is my argument against it: occasionally people who are bad (as in unconfident?) writers happen on a *good* new idea about something — or let's say the door through to a good new idea — which they then lose hold of, and they squish the life from it as they try and turn what they're saying into someone else's conception of good/clear writing (sort of the same as lots of rock bands get more ordinary the "better" they get at what they do). Intuitions w/o showing the working aren't intrinsically an anti-communicative idea (in fact I suspect "showing the working" generally needs difft kinds of expressive skills to "bold state the intuition", tho some are good at both, obv).

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 23 May 2003 17:37 (twenty-two years ago)

the purpose of language is making other ppl do something: communication is generally a part of that, but not always

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 23 May 2003 17:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Girls Aloud are on top of the pops! YAY!

― jel -- (jel), Friday, 23 May 2003 17:47 (twenty-two years ago)

So here is my argument against it: occasionally people who are bad (as in unconfident?) writers happen on a *good* new idea about something ? or let's say the door through to a good new idea ? which they then lose hold of, and they squish the life from it as they try and turn what they're saying into someone else's conception of good/clear writing (sort of the same as lots of rock bands get more ordinary the "better" they get at what they do).

Fucking hell, I live inside that paragraph.

― s woods (s woods), Friday, 23 May 2003 17:59 (twenty-two years ago)

but ppl who try and it turn it into someone else's conception of good writing usually instead turn it into 'their' conception of someone else's conception etc so why worry

― dave q, Friday, 23 May 2003 18:06 (twenty-two years ago)

adding crap to the pile

― jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 23 May 2003 18:11 (twenty-two years ago)

but if more people wrote really wilfully unclearly then the gap between conceptions and conceptions of conceptions would grow and grow obv, vastly increasing the range of ideas "out there", and with this the chances that the ideas were good (unclearly expressed but good)

besides, if it's a BAD idea unclearly expressed you can always misread it yrself, and enjoy the better idea yr actually projecting onto it!!

it's win-win!!

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 23 May 2003 18:19 (twenty-two years ago)

(incidentally the above is the key and core of my theory abt why music is a socially valuable thing above and beyond being fun blah blah: it consists of ideas "wilfully unclearly expressed" — viz in music not in language. this non-communication is received as it's communication, which produces fitful (or frantic) attempts by the listener-brain to "decode" it, which translate as the rest of the listener's mind joins in into ideas — or activities — which are new to listener AS WELL AS never envisaged by the musician

trans. = "osmotic alien tongue pressure")

(this shd really go on the kuhn thread)

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 23 May 2003 18:30 (twenty-two years ago)

mark s, just so you know, i will defend to the death your right to confuse the hell out of me with that Bangs thing on your web-site. that goes for anybody on here. whether you have a good idea to share or are completely full of shit, i'm in your corner.

― scott seward, Friday, 23 May 2003 18:32 (twenty-two years ago)

That Kogan piece is interesting, but it really does nothing to dispel anything said on this thread, does it? Like most 'academic' stuff it's descriptive--he lucidly explains things that I already had a instinctual grasp of--and left me with no greater appreciation of criticism.

― oops (Oops), Friday, 23 May 2003 20:30 (twenty-two years ago)

That oops post is interesting, but it really does nothing to dispel anything said on this thread, does it? Like most 'academic' stuff it's descriptive--he lucidly explains things that I already had a instinctual grasp of--and left me with no greater appreciation of criticism.

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 23 May 2003 20:39 (twenty-two years ago)

well oops if we all had yr. smashing instincts then i suppose we wouldn't need communication after all.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Friday, 23 May 2003 20:42 (twenty-two years ago)

That mark s post is interesting, but it really does nothing to dispel anything said on this thread, does it? Like most 'academic' stuff it's descriptive--he lucidly explains things that I already had a instinctual grasp of--and left me with no greater appreciation of criticism.

(since I wasn't trying to dispel anything nor leave you w/a greater appreciation of criticism, YOUR criticism is empty and petty)

― oops (Oops), Friday, 23 May 2003 20:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Sterling, grow the fuck up

― oops (Oops), Friday, 23 May 2003 20:44 (twenty-two years ago)

keep it up folks!

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 23 May 2003 20:49 (twenty-two years ago)

empty AND petty!!

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 23 May 2003 20:53 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.punk77.co.uk/graphics/nosebleeds.jpg

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Friday, 23 May 2003 20:54 (twenty-two years ago)

critics in not-being-able-to-take-criticism SHOCKAH!

― oops (Oops), Friday, 23 May 2003 21:46 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.photo-trio.co.nz/mann/Pg%203/swan%20lake.jpg

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Friday, 23 May 2003 21:55 (twenty-two years ago)

http://rosecity.net/al_gore/head_up_ass.jpg

― oops (Oops), Friday, 23 May 2003 21:57 (twenty-two years ago)

(yeah, you're right that's a picture of me. good retort)
/preemptive

― oops (Oops), Friday, 23 May 2003 21:58 (twenty-two years ago)

that dude's doing the dirty ostrich!

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Friday, 23 May 2003 22:14 (twenty-two years ago)

it is entirely true that if — like oops — you can lay claim to an infinite "instinctual" pre-knowledge of everything ever, then criticism is entirely pointless

not so for us mere finite lower beings, who wish to find out about stuff we know that we don't know, and are only too humbly aware that we may need to think about things we've never thought about before

does he just hang around with us to LAUGH at us? baffling are the ways of the arching gods to mortals

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 23 May 2003 22:41 (twenty-two years ago)

yes, that's exactly what I claimed. you guys are so fucking touchy
What I meant was that he (Kogan) verbalized things that many of us had a sense of anyway.
But continue making false assumptions and asinine responses if it fits your needs.

― oops (Oops), Friday, 23 May 2003 23:08 (twenty-two years ago)

i love teasing you oops, you get SO ANGRY SO FAST, and it messes your logic up even worse than normal

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 23 May 2003 23:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Oooh yeah, I am SO angry. Do you see the smoke coming out of my ears?Mark, grow the fuck up. Do you even see how much of a prick you're being?

― oops (Oops), Friday, 23 May 2003 23:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Hee hee.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Friday, 23 May 2003 23:28 (twenty-two years ago)

"(Look at all the intellectuals squirm!)"

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 23 May 2003 23:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Zing?

― oops (Oops), Friday, 23 May 2003 23:37 (twenty-two years ago)

(they're still squirming)

― oops (Oops), Friday, 23 May 2003 23:39 (twenty-two years ago)

"the purpose of language is making other ppl do something: communication is generally a part of that, but not always "

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 23 May 2003 23:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Good one. You win!

― oops (Oops), Friday, 23 May 2003 23:42 (twenty-two years ago)

night oops (i'm on yr side on the war against boys thread btw)

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 23 May 2003 23:44 (twenty-two years ago)

peace.
I forgot the point we were even arguing, so here's to you for a job well done! (that was not sarcastic)(i think)

― oops (Oops), Friday, 23 May 2003 23:47 (twenty-two years ago)

and here i thought the whole you-suck-no-you-suck school of criticism had been discredited by the back of my 6th grade home room teacher's hand after the great Van Halen-vs-Styx debates of 79.

― scott seward, Friday, 23 May 2003 23:57 (twenty-two years ago)

This was more in the style of the you suck-whateverrrr school.

― oops (Oops), Saturday, 24 May 2003 05:54 (twenty-two years ago)

''So here is my argument against it''

um, i'm surprised you're arg against ''good'' writing bcz you have ranted abt bad writers in many other threads no?

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Saturday, 24 May 2003 08:49 (twenty-two years ago)

I suppose talking abt music, books is what keeps it alive for me. hearing a record and hearing someone else's opinion of it are equally important to me.

From frank's essay: ''I've heard Marcus's prose attacked for being too dry. Compared to what, the Great Flood?''

Miccio didn't give any examples but this is why this thread has been so 'successful'. he didn't put a line where good criticism ends and academic crit begins and then where that ends and overacademic crit begins.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Saturday, 24 May 2003 09:12 (twenty-two years ago)

I'M THE FIRESTARTAH! TWISTED FIRESTARTAH!

http://www.mtv.com/news/images/p/prodigy980507.gif

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 24 May 2003 16:30 (twenty-two years ago)

The reason this is such an explosive topic on ILM is that the community here consists of plenty of people who are more academic-minded, but also people that want to talk about music but find the academic angle frustrating. When we post here, who do we have in mind? The entire ILM community? Or the select group of people that we know will "get it"?

There's another group here (and I'm sure this doesn't exhaust things), of which I'm a member. Those who love the highly intellectual stuff and feel privileged to read the fantastic stuff here from Sinkah and Kogan and Nabisco and Jerry the Nipper and indeed Sterling - but who have not had the kind of education that means we necessarily have much info about Gramsci and the like in our heads. Kogan's Kuhn thread (on ILE) addresses this point explicitly, by explaining the ideas he wants to discuss. I find that I can generally grasp and follow the ideas reasonably well that people like those I just mentioned bring up, and can even make some attempt to address them at times, and that comes from seeing the ideas talked about, not from any previous knowledge of them (usually) or any knowledge of their originators (which I think is generally the least important bit).

I don't complain if someone cites Gramsci and I don't know what ideas they are referencing. Sometimes I might look something up, if I have the right books to hand. If I don't know, then (at least) that part of what you've said hasn't communicated with me, but there's no rule that says I'm the audience that has to be addressed. There are very many people who know far more than me here, and if you want good talk about Gramsci, you're obviously far better off talking to them than to me anyway. If you wanted to discuss some individual idea of Gramsci's, you've excluded some people who might have had something interesting to say, which seems less desirable all round (that's still far from being something to complain about, I should emphasise). Obviously intelligence doesn't perfectly correlate with knowledge of Gramsci.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Saturday, 24 May 2003 22:07 (twenty-two years ago)

"Amused by the strawman metaphor of classroom/hallway in the piece you included; I couldn't think of a more perfect example of the intellectual inferiority complex which subsumes so much rock criticism, and the use of such a whining sub-fratboy american highschool image was the finishing touch. I agree with him that print is more powerful than music to alter self, except that it has always been so."

― haha (esskay), Sunday, 25 May 2003 10:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Kogan needs to meet some actual 15 yearolds.

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Sunday, 25 May 2003 11:29 (twenty-two years ago)

[ADMIN: password-protected image link removed]

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 28 May 2003 00:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Martin, I definitely feel some kinship to that "other group" you mention. I really like your last point about how explaining individual ideas opens up the conversation to a larger community.

Mark, I do see what you mean about the possibility of conventionally "bad" writing to contain nuggets of instinctual insight that "good" writing might obscure. My only caveat would be that writers strive for the instinctual insights rather than the confusion. If confusion results, so be it. But sometimes I get the feeling that certain writers like this willfully allusive style for its own sake.

Oops: "he lucidly explains things that I already had a instinctual grasp of" --> You don't find this valuable in itself? Or would you prefer to keep all your thoughts on an instinctual level? (Personally, I love when a writer does this; it helps me communicate my instincts to others.)

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 28 May 2003 14:32 (twenty-two years ago)

It's easier to say you had an "instinctual" grasp of something when it has a name. ;-)

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 28 May 2003 14:40 (twenty-two years ago)

three years pass...

what's wrong with anti-intellectualism?

― scott seward, Monday, 19 March 2007 19:13 (eighteen years ago)

So weird to read 2003-me arguing about this stuff.

― jaymc, Monday, 19 March 2007 19:52 (eighteen years ago)

how is this thread not about stylus? or at least their metal reviews.

― GOTT PUNCH II HAWKWINDZ, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 00:33 (eighteen years ago)

But Rockism > Popism...isnt it?

― yoko0no, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 00:41 (eighteen years ago)

2003 was not a good year for me.

― da croupier, Tuesday, 20 March 2007 00:43 (eighteen years ago)

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