C/D Riot Grrrl

We are about to go on tour with 3 riot grrl bands, and I will let you know my opinions of it when we come back... if we make it back. HAH!

No, seriously, this is a topic that has been very much on my mind these past few days (probably inspired by reading copies of various zines while burning promo CDs- ended up with an argument about the Courtney Love vs. Kathleen Hannah spat, which was very unwise, as they were our mutual sacred cows).

Do you mean the actual *music* of a very narrow band of bands in the mid 90s- yer Huggy Bears, yer Bikini Kills, etc. - or do you mean that entire subculture that has since been generated around this part-Punk DIY, part-feminism culture? Or both?

Personally not into it a great deal and wouldn't think of ever listening to Babes in Toyland or L7 on my own volition. Fine bands, just not my cup of tea. As far as those who inspired it, search the Slits, Raincoats, Kim Gordon, Throwing Muses, Scrawl, etc.

And destroy Shatner-Kinney.

I never saw that Riot Grrrl should be used to describe a particular music, specially when you consider how disparate Bikini Kill (X-Ray Spex singer backed with Joan Jett's guitar) and Huggy Bear (Sonic Youth meets Shock Headed Peters meets a toy piano) were. Riot Grrrl was originally intended to be a blanket description of a particular set of changing beliefs or lifestyle, and incidentally wasn't supposed to exist as a description after six months.

Are the Bangs Riot Grrrls? Is it a geographic description then?

On a personal note, it certainly cost me most of my British friends on all sides of the spectrum.

Heavens to Betsey or Bratmobile were way more inventive and inspiring.

'shatner-kinney' = funny.

riot-grrl is one of those genres that just needs to be louder and noisier. the lolita storm album is a good start, but i demand more glitchiness. noise made by guitars is no longer considered 'noise'.

I am very nervous of the term itself, because it seems to want to pidgeonhole *any* female dominated band instantly as being "riot grrl" no matter what their style of music. I'm looking at this tour and there's 4 very different yet great bands - The Bangs (slick guitar rock power pop trio), The Gossip (Southern gothic garage blues), Sarah Dougher (her latest stuff I've heard is somewhere between folk and surf) and us (I'm not allowed to talk about us because it will summon doomintroll) - and the only link is that we're all female bands, therefore we must all be Riot Grrls. The moment anyone talks about female musicians in indie, it's like this little light goes on that says "riot grrl" which just annoys me.

So, well... forgive me if I seem a little bitter at times.

Classic, because it brought female musicians and female creativity into the spotlight for a time. Dud because the Britmedia, in the way that they almost universally do, treated it as just another fad to be hyped for 6 months, then dismissed as passe and turned into a joke. Like, half the human experience is really just a fad you can shove into the dustbins with Baggy and the New Wave of Whatever.

Classic if it is women encouraging and empowering themselves and each other, raising females and female creativity. DUD if this is accomplished at the expense of being derrogatory towards men, or putting men down.

Classic if it inspires and encourages girls of all ages to start playing musical instruments and form garage bands and punk bands, to express their talents, no matter what their level of experience. But in a horrible way, dud, because so many first wave Riot Grrl bands were so technically not very good, that it has reinforced the idea that all female musicians are nothing but girls shouting loudly over inept punk rock guitars. No one is a very good musician when they first start, no one thinks 16 year old garage bands are the sole example of male musicianship, yet there exists this BIAS that because so many riot grrls bands are made of girls who have only been playing guitar for less than a year, that it reflects badly on the playing abilities of *all* women.

I know that that isn't Riot Grrl's fault. It's a bias that the whole point of riot grrl was to try and negate, yet it seems to have been something that it's reinforced. NOT ALL female music is either shouty girls with incompetant punk guitars, or whinging folkie women strumming acoustic guitars, but that's such a common bias.

I'm ranting, better check myself.

Bands that I liked that came out of the movement: H*le, though we all know what happens when we try to discuss C**rtn*y L*ve on this board. Huggy Bear. Voodoo Queens. And I'd love Sleater-Kinney if they never sang a note... (that VOICE! argh!)

Bands that make me wanna deny any assocation with the movement: anything that Kathleen Hanna touches. Strident, didactic, reducing complex sexual politics down to snappy slogans that look good on 15 year olds' t-shirts... it's like "hey, kids, feminism can be FUN!"

I *hate* songs about feminism. I mean, do all boys write songs about BEING GUYS?!?!? To me, songs which are much more powerful are songs which are simply about the complex, rich tapestry of being humans that happen to be female. Feminism, and by extension riot grrl, is something that you live by example, not something that you preach.

I'm tempted to compare Riot Grrl & its offshoots to the fallout that followed Lilith Fair, but that'd be crass & unfounded.

And, oh, man, the Gossip are RIDICULOUSLY good live - they put on "a show". As is Sarah Dougher, though for entirely different reasons - a very talented songwriter. Rearranged "Take It To The Limit" (ugh, Eagles) to glorious effect on her first K Records offering, _Day One_.

My own feelings on riot grrl as a defined phase back in 1992 or so -- mixed when talking about the music itself. There's some attempted-wry comment I made upon hearing "Rebel Girl" written in a zine somewhere at the time talking about how the female techno DJ I heard later that night at KUCI was creating something that spoke to me more personally on a musical level, for instance. But I think Kate spelled out plenty of the reasons to love what happened and to also look askance -- and wisely notes that a fair amount of those negative reasons were out of anyone's control.

My favorite band I discovered as a result of it all was Mecca Normal, who put on a great show at UCI in early 1993 and whose lead singer Jean Smith was an intelligent and thoughtful person when I interviewed her for the campus paper (and was kind enough to say that my article I wrote was one of the better ones she'd seen on the group). True, Mecca Normal wasn't a riot grrl band as defined/stereotyped -- had been around for a few years, not based in Olympia -- but they benefited from the exposure and I am glad of it. So perhaps like any 'movement' -- however defined, discussed, praised then crucified -- there'll be a mix of unaffecting slop and strong, cut to the quick joy. And what's what is all down to individual taste for you, if you leave your ears open and judge on what you hear.

Jerry (and everyone else!), you might be interested in this:

http ://antpac.lib.uci.edu/search/a?SEARCH=starr%2C+chelsea

This is my good friend Chelsea's PhD dissertation, which is indeed all about the history of the movement as seen by her. As yet not published formally as a book, but I hope it is!

I'm sorry to say that I think that you folk are overrating Sarah Dougher. She is a gifted woman and has a good lead guitar player, but I really don't think she's a great songwriter or live performer.

And while the Go-Go's / S-K connection is quite obvious, I didn't "get it" until _All Hands on the Bad One_ (which I used to think was glorious, but haven't listened to in a while). I'd recommend the stuff w/ Laura McFarlane as drummer, though. (And I find it odd that Corin's singing seems to be THE bone of contention among S-K hatas. Ehh.)

Yes, agree to disagree of course. Why did you think she was so good? Where did you see her?

One note: this may be a statement of the obvious for folks around here, but I've always been mystified at the amount of "great for women!" praise that's been heaped, alternately, on the riot-grrl and Lilith Fair sets, respectively. Such praise seems to take a really essentialist position on women and art, assuming that only genres which are cast as "girly" or "feminist" represent an actual female viewpoint. I've always thought much more inspiration for women could come from a band like everyone's favorite My Bloody Valentine, which, in performance if not conception, strikes me as commendably gender- neutral. (I'd like to think that if I were a teenaged girl, I'd be more impressed with Deb Googe than Kathleen Hanna.)

Mainly I think there's an offshoot of the vocals-fetish at work here: women are only considered to be expressing anything feminine if they're actually making vocal noises that are clearly female in origin. But given that female vocals have been appreciated and fetishized throughout recent Western history, I think the pioneering thing now would be an all-female instrumental combo. Godspeed You Black Emperor as conceived by women. . . when will that happen?

Deb Googe, meanwhile, rocks. She was always the most active member on stage and just looked damn cool. Anyone seen her live in Snowpony? I've only heard the album.

But what do you guys think? I know plenty of women who enjoy, say, dronerock or noise or hair metal, but why is it so rare to come across women actually making these kinds of music? Is it just that it hasn't really happened before? Is it because women aren't yet taken seriously in those fields? Are those fields somehow off- puttingly "masculine?" Is it that women in music are more likely to focus on the fact that they're "women playing music," and therefore shy away from personality-submerging styles like dronerock? Or are there plenty of examples I'm just not thinking of, who don't get noticed because they're not easily packaged and marketed?

Well, it's like this... you know how the common complaint about Whitney Houston is that sort of yodelling trill that really good gospel singers do on certain phrases to convey powerful emotions... well, Whitney Houston uses it on EVERY BLOODY NOTE.

Ditto Corin... you know that sort of yodelling trill that Kristen Hirsch did on certain phrases to convey powerful emotions, and well, Corin... you get the picture.

I've always thought much more inspiration for women could come from a band like everyone's favorite My Bloody Valentine, which, in performance if not conception, strikes me as commendably gender- neutral. (I'd like to think that if I were a teenaged girl, I'd be more impressed with Deb Googe than Kathleen Hanna.)

Well, that was basically *exactly* what happened to me, and how I kind of missed Riot Grrl the first time round, because playing kick-ass bass with my fringe in my face to swhirling guitar noises was what I was *actually* doing at the time...

This is another complaint about riot grrl, and indeed all girl bands (the ironic thing being that many pivotal riot grrls bands like Huggy Bear were indeed mixed sex, and more powerful for it) - that it is inherantly separatist, and separatism is inherantly ghettoism, and that is bad.

However, the *strength* of all girl bands is, as expressed by the fabulous Charms, that in an ideal girl band, you would get an incredible mix of influences, because girls were playing with each other based on sex, rather than musical influence. 4 guys would get together and bond over their love of Husker Du and start a soundalike hardcore tribute band. 4 girls would get together, and you'd have a hardcore punk, a new waver, a dance music fanatic and a dronerocker, all throwing their influences together into something incredibly new and interesting.

If only it worked that way outside of fiction... sigh...

I think the pioneering thing now would be an all-female instrumental combo

That's why I had such high hopes for Electralane, the all girl post-rock combo. But... I have invariably been disappointed by their recorded output. Who knows, I'll see them at Ladyfest, and draw my collusions from their live show.

dronerock noise and metal - but why is it so rare to come across women actually making these kinds of music?

HELLO!!!!!!!!!!!!! ::puts hand up:: I spent years and years making dronerock as a girl, and got nothing but ignored. Giving up, and starting what was supposed to be my "solo project" playing stereotypically "girly" pop music (albeit filtred through my droner aesthetic) ... suddenly we're touring the UK. So now I keep my dronerock for the solo project.

As to metal... erm... Kittie? Sugar Coma? The Donnas?

OK, between me and Ned, we've comandeered this thread and turned it into a dronerock thread. Whoops!

I was hoping you wouldn't react that way. My initial phrasing was going to be that it was "difficult" to find women in those fields, but then it occurred to me that you were right upthread, so "rare" seemed like a better phrase. I was going to just go ahead and just mention you outright, but I thought that might be worse.

Anyway. So are you saying your experience -- finding that people just didn't seem interested when you tackled those styles -- is part of the reason for women being even more underrepresented there than in music as a whole?

So any of those things by themselves or in conjunction could have been responsible for the change in acceptance, as well as the gender/genre issue. It would be *tempting* to say it's because people are more willing to see girls in a pop band than a dronerock band, but I do recognise that it's not that simple.

What I do notice is that way that a band like Electralane have been treated almost as a novelty act- in reviews, they never fail to mention ALL GIRL post-rock band. I mean, you'd never see Mogwai: ALL-BOY post-rock band.

OK, I'm going to stop ranting now, because Paul is playing Helen Love at me, and I'm taking that as a signal... ;-)

Couple of points.

1) Sleater-Kinney are a killer live band. I know they're the 'Riot Grrrl band it's OK to like' in the mainstream press, and I personally don't trust anything with Greil Marcus' seal of approval, but there's something about the trill in Corin's voice - yes, I like it - that catches me everytime. There again, Bikini Kill's "Reject All American" final album is so far advanced along from their initial beginnings, I find it difficult to believe anyone could think their Tinkerbell rock.

2) Anyone heard Slumber Party? Incredible album. Like Shop Assistants, with a little Mo Tucker thrown in: I don't bandy around these names lightly.

3) I didn't know that Riot Grrrl had progressed/disintregated so far as to describe any female musician playing indie. (I prefer the phrase 'femme rock' myself.) Sorry Kate. Actually, when Riot Grrl first started, music was almost incidental, just a part of a much wider concept. I remember a famous friend telling me she had a problem with the 'grrrl' part of the description, felt it was too cutesie and precluded women with real life periods and all that. It probably was, in retrospect: but there again it's a very evocative phrase (as both Roseanne Barr and the Amsterdamn porn merchants will tell you).

4) The Lollies are rather good. I have some sort of CD by my iMac that I've played several times, and enjoyed. Don't ask me to categorise the music: I'm too old for that game now.

5) Great point on Britmedia treating Riot Grrrl as a fad for six months, like half the human race is. (I just got ridiculed in a Times review for stating that 'mostly, only art created by women has any validity'. So I'm smarting too.) Trouble was, back then the vast majority of male (and female) journos absolutely hated Riot Grrrls with a venom I'm sure even they didn't understand. Weird, considering the sales figures. (The Huggy Bear on 'The Word', happening without your permission, MM cover was the best-selling non-promoted issue of MM during the 90s, and yes I think that even includes the Kurt death issue.) I think it was because the original Riot Grrrls were pointing out there were ways of creating music/art/food/culture/communities without going through the mainstream. I was extremely aware that during '91-92, if my support of Riot Grrrl was successful, I would be destroying the very thing that was paying my rent - the patriarchal music press. This seemed to me to be rather a jolly and splendid thing. It didn't happen unfortunately because people are far more conservative then I give them credit for.

6) Nothing wrong with putting men down. Had it their own damn way for far too long.

7) Fuck that shit about the first wave of Riot Grrrls not being technically very good: this was actually one of the hegemenous suppositions we were attempting to overthrow - that there's a right and wrong way to paint a picture, to tune a guitar, to read a book. Who the fuck cares whether you've learnt to play guitar the Clapton or Keith Richards or Thurston Moore way? What matters is the feeling you put across, every time. There is no such thing as bad art, only bad recievers.

(The trouble was, though, because the vast majority of people are always such dullards, many Riot Grrrl-influenced musicians that followed thought they had to exactly replicate the sound of their heroines. NO NO NO! Innovate, be yourself... actually, I have come to sadly realise that being yourself for most people actually means imitating someone else.)

8) Huggy Bear were great until the final album. Mecca Normal were peerless (as in Jean's 2 Foot Flame project), absolute inspiration, although they actually predated Riot Grrrl by a good few years. Matrimony from Australia are great, as are spiritual Riot Grrrls, the Cannanes. I like Ninetynine a whole bunch, and of course all those folk like the Pee Chees, Nation, Make Up, Heavens To Betsy, Bratmobile etc etc. Lois Maffeo's album with Brendan Canty is a sheer pleasure, and Sarah Dougher once wrote the sweetest, saddest break up song I ever heard. Crabs, D+. Cadallaca - all brilliant. I hate the fucking Tiger Trap/Softies style bands, though... talk about missing the point.

9) Kate say she hates songs about feminism: yet pretty much every boy band I've ever heard ONLY writes songs about being boys. Go back and listen to those records, Kate. You are so wrong on this point. Still, I can't deny I do like a little stridency mixed in with my passion.

10) Early Go-Go's is pure Riot Grrrl.. speaking of which, if any of you ever get the chance to see a movie called "Ladies And Gentlemen, The Fabulous Stains", don't pass it up. The best rock movie ever made, bar none.

11) Love to read your friend Chelsea's dissertion, Ned, but I can't find it from that link.

12) Oh, and duh! Despite my many arguments with Polly Harvey to the contrary, she was absolutely a feminist. (Something that C**rtn*y has since denied being, in her speech if not words.)

13) I think that Electrelane album is excellent, far more interesting than I expected from previous output, but there again they are my homegirls... Are they all female? I honestly didn't realise.

Damn, there are a thousand other points I want to make, but I think I may have relapsed into simple-speak. My point of view is better than your point of view! No it's not! Yes it is! No it's not etc. Sorry if that's the case.

Classic Classic Classic Classic Classic Classic Classic

"[M]any Riot Grrrl-influenced musicians that followed thought they had to exactly replicate the sound of their heroines. NO NO NO! Innovate, be yourself..."

"I hate the fucking Tiger Trap/Softies style bands, though... talk about missing the point."

Slightly contradictory? What "point" should Tiger Trap have been getting? And couldn't they easily argue that you're missing their "point?" And most importantly, wouldn't any "point" they were following from lie more along the indie-pop/"twee" continuum than anything having to do with riot-grrl? And if we buy all of the statements about riot-grrl not being a sound but a philosophy of women expressing themselves outside of the mainstream, how would Tiger Trap have violated that point? It seems to me you're just tagging them as too "girly" . . . :)

That said, I second you on the Slumber Party record. Although the reverb and pacing always make Galaxie 500 my first reference for them.

I like girlie music, actually. The Softies seem fake girlie to me, if that's not an oxymoron. I think they're putting it on to engender peer approval. I don't think it's the real Softies. (Now there's a thought!)

Jerry- First of all, thanks for the words of praise- without being too starstruck or anything, I really consider a compliment from you a great honour. There's my head swollen for a week. :-)

I will have to look up Slumber Party - anything that refernces Shop Assistants (were they, like Throwing Muses and other key girl bands, too early to be considered Riot Grrl?) and Mo Tucker and Galaxie 500 is OK by me.

I think it was because the original Riot Grrrls were pointing out there were ways of creating music/art/food/culture/communities without going through the mainstream.

This is a point which often gets missed. But, unfortunately, too many movements which start with the idea of subverting the system end either in self parody (Sex Pistols turning Punk into cash from chaos) or in self destruction if they are absorbed by the system they long to destroy (grunge) or are laughed out of existence by those that perceive them as a threat. (riot grrl) Isn't that always the way, though?

There are two ways to go about achieving change- you can either try to set up your own alternate reality, or else you can get inside the system and try to change it from the inside. After years of headbutting frustration with the former, I'm being drawn more and more towards the latter. Maybe that's wrong...

re: male bashing. I fight against the urge to do it every chance I get. Funny, because there's been a similar thread going on the ILE sister board, about mysogeny, and why man-hating is still considered acceptible. My answer is that it isn't. Not only because *not* all men deserve it (one of the powerful forces behind the Ladyfest tour becoming reality was a man- certain elements at Ladyfest didn't even want to give him a pass to the festival, despite the fact that he is one of the most pro-female men I know) but also because it is counter-productive. As soon as you dilute your message with derision or reverse sexism, then all the other side hears is *that*. They don't hear your message that women are good and that women deserve to be treated equally, they just hear that you are a man-hater and probably a bulldyke to boot. *Not* productive.

There is no such thing as bad art, only bad recievers.

I disagree, but hey. That's your opinion. I went to art school, and I saw more bad art than you can dream of! ;-)

Though more the point that I am making is your second paragraph. When second generation bands copy the willful ineptness slavishly, rather than try to discover their own way of expressing themselves, that makes me irritated. But this (and they) will change with time and practice, and I hope that girls continue to play, and grow better and more expressive (rather than me being irritated with them).

I hate the fucking Tiger Trap/Softies style bands, though... talk about missing the point.

Again, your opinion. Tiger Trap are one of my favourite bands. Anger and rebellion are not the only thing that women have to say- there is a place for gentle, cute and vulnerable, as well. I wish I could write a song as heartbreaking as Pineapple Crush.

Kate say she hates songs about feminism: yet pretty much every boy band I've ever heard ONLY writes songs about being boys.

I hate songs which are exclusively about feminism, and about nothing else. I hate music which reduces political or social points to mere slogans with no relation to human experience. I *LOVE* songs which are about the female experience, about the *human* experience of being female. That, to me, is far more powerful to me than someone shouting in my ear about sexual equality. That was the crux of our tour manager's and my arguement- to me, Kathleen Hannah just sloganeers about feminism while Courtney Love writes songs about the entire experience of being female, *all* of it, not just the politically acceptible bits.

Men are given rein through music to write about pretty much the whole spectrum of their experience (maybe it's the only way they're allowed to experience emotions) - as nasty as the Limp Bizkit cock rock types are, there are just as many B&S bedwetters at the other end of the spectrum. Why should women be confined to writing songs only about one thing? And, BTW, men *do* frequently attempt to write songs about women, or attempting to penetrate the mysteries of the female experience, with varying degrees of success. (Some might say the mark of good songwriting is that it truly transcends gender... don't know if I agree? Maybe.)

Like I always say, feminism is simply something you *do*, not something you preach about. I feel that I say and do more, just existing and carrying on and being a strong and opinionated woman who writes songs about whatever affects me, than I ever could by simple sloganeering. But that is my way, I'm not an overtly political person.

Fabulous Stains, I have never seen, but the guitarist for my first band used to rave about it endlessly.

Like I said on Electralane, I will pass up judgement on them until I see them live.

But, even though there are a thousand more points I could rebutt, it is late and Paul needs to use the computer before we go to bed.

Slumber Party -- well, I'm sold, all these descriptions sound great. And speaking of Mo, as Kate can confirm, her set at Terrastock 4 was r0x0r (that is how you spell it, right?). To my merry surprise, I got the chance to review all the Galaxie 500 albums for the AMG...

The Fabulous Stains -- got to see all or most of this a couple of times on cable back in 1982 or so, when I was 11 and didn't know much of this punk rock of which you speak. I remember the band being pissed off on stage, the rasta roadie and general mayhem (and a shower sex scene -- ah, youthful hormones). The fact I remember any of it is a testimony to something, but yes, worth seeing at least once.

Chelsea's dissertation -- I have to apologize, I wasn't clear! I wanted to call attention to its existence, but at this point it's not generally available. However, I might see if I can get a copy from her tomorrow on disc -- if so, I'll be in the UK soon, and will be happy to share that with Kate or whoever.

The Cannanes -- so cool. And very fun live.

Early Go-Go's -- Beyond the Valley of the Go-Go's is laden with such goodness, the first eleven or so tracks are pre-recording deal live fun, right down to the earliest take of "Johnny Are You Queer?"

The Ladyfest guy and trying to keep him from it -- sucks. As I muttered on that ILE thread Kate mentioned, I'm with Jerry regarding slams on zer male, though more on a 'let it happen, I don't worry over it' level. But something like that is rather grotesque -- on the level of sheer courtesy alone.

Bad art/bad receivers -- oh heavens, I'm with Kate, *plenty* of bad art. Just that art can be defined so many ways, for good or for ill. I don't think of myself as a 'bad receiver' if something doesn't connect, it's just a personal reaction on my part, which can range from cold acknowledgment/appreciation to outright loathing.

*One of the female journalists writing in the UK music press at the time who UNEQUIVOCALLY did not hate riot grrrl and understood it wholistically.

*Was happy to be involved with it, an organiser, etc. I did not run off into hiding when it was 'out of fashion' or make it into some big career move...but in many ways it was the making of me.

*Thought it was going to last a lot longer than six months. Happily, I'd say it has.

I sincerely doubt it's the best thing to perpetuate such "movements" beyond their original shelflife. Yes, what the movements stood for should definitely live on (if such ideals are worth embracing), but that doesn't necessarily jive with what the movement becomes. And should a movement be so easily pigeonholed?

Slamming Kathleen Hanna for taking feminism and reducing it to catchphrases and sloganeering, or slamming Tiger Trap & the Softies for their "approach" is as daft a tactic as slamming a band for not using an E chord. High falutin' ideas like Riot Grrl (or "punk rock") (or "art") are open to interpretation, and there's no "right" answer. They "got" it their way; you "get" it a different way.

And who's actually putting these groups under this umbrella. Riot Grrl seems to mean nothing more than female-dominated groups associated with K Records or Kill Rock Stars. Bikini Kill is the only group I can think of that's resolutely feminist in their music (and I'll except some flak from that statement) - most of the others deal with feminine issues, but aren't wearing their breasts on their sleeves (to put it glibly). A good number of the "Riot Grrl" bands have also been refered to as Queercore - is that significant? Does being a punk rock group comprised of women make you Riot Grrl, even if you're singing about Stalin and checkbooks?

This is the problem I have with modern music journalism - creating whole ideologies and movements out of some tenuous connections and similarities, and then attempting desperately to pigeon-hole other musicians into these pre-set movements for convenience's sake. It's like watching professors bullshitting theories for papers that will get them their beloved tenure. It's never that clean & simple, and it shouldn't be. Leave the goddamn slogans and catchphrases to the politicians and the advertisers, and just present the FACTS.

I'm not sure if I'm expressing myself well - I'll try to fix the problem after I get some shut-eye (which, right now, I need desperately). Assuming there is some confusion, of course.

Could I just reinforce this point. The first 11 tracks are an absolute delight. You wouldn't have thought such spontaniety could produce a person like Belinda Carlisle

* I hate songs which are exclusively about feminism, and about nothing else. I hate music which reduces political or social points to mere slogans with no relation to human experience

There's absolutely nothing wrong with a well-placed slogan - ask the Paris 60s insurrectionists, or Manic Street Preachers or Sex Pistols or indeed Huggy Bear. All music and all songs reduces human experience to a couple of pithy lines by very necessity, there isn't time or space to do anything else: you don't come looking to rock music for anwers or insights, more for the tremble in the voice or drum roll. If you're looking for poetry, then read poetry.

* Funny, because there's been a similar thread going on the ILE sister board

What's this?

* Bad art/bad receivers -- oh heavens, I'm with Kate, *plenty* of bad art.

Well, I don't know. Isn't art a two way experience? Without someone to say an object is beautiful, is that object beautiful? Sorry, I never went to art school...

* (It is nice to see Jerry, but "Don't trust anything with Greil Marcus's seal of a approval" is a retarded thing to say...)

Isn't it, though? I don't like the idea of anyone trusting anyone they don't know and have exhanged saliva with personally, and then not even then. Actually, I'm quite fond of the old sot: bloody awful tsate in the music stakes though.

I say something more extreme here, but at base I feel the same way. 'Deep' lyrics, however defined, are not enough on their own and are not required anyway.

What's this?

I Love Everything, the offshoot board of ILM -- utterly freewheeling, merrily rude, great, great fun. Talk films, talk art, talk life as you like. In joke factor astoundingly high, but there you are. Find it here or search the LUSENET link at the top of the page.

Isn't art a two way experience? Without someone to say an object is beautiful, is that object beautiful?

Might not have been clear, was trying to say that at the very least it's reader/viewer response at heart, but that the idea of 'bad receivers' seems inadequate or misapplied.

I am still crushed by the fact Tiger Trap only released a CD and an EP, and nothing (aside from Go Sailor) that Rose has done since has been so perfectly poppy and yet rocked so hard. Interesting thing about the softies is they started releasing records before the whole "quiet is the new loud" movement that has made Travis and Coldplay so popular. I say they deserve pioneer status. (Behind the Music voice) "They rose from the ashes of cuddlecore with a new direction and a new sound...."

Few artists have influenced me as much as Rose's output has. From the moment I heard "Supreme Nothing" on a mix tape (thanks, Kate!) I realized I needed to pick up an instrument and play in a band. And it made me sad that I had arrived at the party so late; by 1998 Tiger Trap was over, Cub had decided to learn to play their instruments and therefore were over, etc. etc. I was the target market when Riot Grrl exploded; it struck me as another fashion spread by Spin magazine. It wasn't until much later when I heard Bikini Kill and wondered if I missed something.

Also, on a side note, I recommend the Softies' "Holiday in Rhode Island" to combat fake girliness. The songwriting and lyrical content has matured, and they've added instrumentation that is deliciously subtle. Some argue the softies are the same song over and over, which is why if you're going to invest in a softies album, I recommend that one.

And I am really happy the Go-Gos have reunited, and I'm really glad their sound is more in the vein of froSTed than "Heaven Is a Place on Earth." Jane Weidlin is *so* good, it's too bad so much of her solo stuff is dominated by 'dated' arrangements and instruments.

so, um, okay, i'm going back to lurk mode.

That's like a 10-year-old deciding they want to be Britney or Justin nSync, for no reason other then they wear glittery clothes and people talk about them. Maybe that is reason enough. I don't know.

But, I'm sorry. I got the exact opposite impression to you about Rose. I got the impression she wanted to be in a band soimply so she could say she was in a band - not through a love of music, or desire to reveal feelings, or anything like that. So she created one that aped all the most superficial aspects of K records and Heavenly and all that damn lark, without even for one second stopping to appreciate that its the almost Salinger-esque lyrics and dark hidden meanings and power control behind Beat Happening songs (say) - not to mention their sharp minimalism and unnerving pacifist bullying - that makes them so wonderful.

Whatever. The only reason people like the Softies make me angry is because they settle for so damn little from life. Maybe I'm jealous.

"That's like a 10-year-old deciding they want to be Britney or Justin nSync, for no reason other then they wear glittery clothes and people talk about them. Maybe that is reason enough. I don't know." Well, I know lots of people who are way older than ten who've decided to get into pop because of glitter. They're usually the types who let other people do the work so they can just show up in full makeup and fabulous clothes. That kind insincerety comes through loud and clear to me. And even if these people do make it, usually through the hard work of others, I know their time is short.

The Softies' appeal isn't something I'm sure I can really comment on besides "oh I like them and what they do," because on the whole, I really don't like twee (actually, I hate twee), yet for some reason they appeal to me, even though I know they are twee-er than twee, supertwee, hypertwee. Maybe it's the girl-writing-in-her-diary-on-a- rainy-afternoon kind of vibe they give, which I can understand not being terribly appealling to anyone who has not been a girl writing in her diary on a rainy afternoon. Or maybe sometimes it's a nice antidote to being just cynical and bitter in general. Sometimes you want something raw, thumping, and sexual, like BH's Black Candy album, and sometimes you just want to sing a pretty la la la.

I think this is a limited signifier myself. There are plenty of people who far from dressing up specifically *dress down* -- in a variety of contexts -- in order to seem more real, while still letting people do all the work for them. And then there are those primpers who throw themselves into what they do with an honest passion. And why not?

oh, absolutely. I'm sure there were plenty of grunge bands who could be accused of this. And there are some forms of "dressed down" that are really calculatedly put together, and I'd lump them in the same catergory as those who just as calculatedly dress "up."

"And then there are those primpers who throw themselves into what they do with an honest passion."

I see nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with looking and feeling fabulous. And I'd like to think that many bands are feeling fabulous because they're doing something they're excited about doing - - making music -- and also feeling good because people like it and are excited about it. And if you step on stage, and all those people are gonna look at you, you may as well feel you look as good as possible... or as ugly as possible... whatever kicks your crank.

I'd like to say that it should always be about the music, but honestly, Look is just as important as Sound, especially if you've got certain goals for your band, including increased marketability. Look should not be MORE important than music, because the goal sounds more like model than musician.

I wonder how this argument applies to gender. Is there more pressure on men or women to look good? Pretty boy bands sell lots of records....

You know what? You're all right, I don't know what I'm talking about, Riot Grrl is something I've fought against being labelled my entire life, so what could I possibly know? My only experience is saying "no, that isn't me" to a whole slew of preconceptions, so which is wrong, the preconceptions or me?

Must be me.

Has two years made much difference and have you heard Stubble Bunny Jerry?

I love Bikini Kill and Le Tigre but I can see your problems wtih Kathleen Hannah. Hals the time she just makes me tink no, no no, you're so wrong!
She seems to think that her personal experience is some sort of universal truth for all women. It's not.

For example, she has a line implying that all women must build their lives to accomodate constant fear of "murder violence and rape"., which I think is ridiculous.

A lot of her work, and what she says in interviews, is about how women have a hard time breaking out wth their creativity, about how they're not encouraged to break out of their traditional roles.
She clearly thinks that it's different for men. Does she have no empathy?

But a few of her songs and a lot of the music has touched me. So I just think of her as an young (even though she's older than me), opinionated, delightful idiot.
I allow for that in her lyrics and they don't seem so bad.

Also remember some fairly sickening reviews in Melody Maker at the time slagging the whole thing off. (Peter Paphides in his review of the Voodoo Queens springs to mind)

Oh, and Everett, see you at the Attik "Legend" gig in Leicester, I hear Nigel Pickled Egg maybe supporting!

i'm not sure if kathleen hanna's words should always be taken as an expression of her views or that they should be taken too literally as with mei's example above, that its hard for women to express themselves. i don't think she is so naive to think that its hard for men to defy their roles! Granted thats a dangerous statement for her to make because the implication is there. i just think kathleen hanna is seeing a need and filling it - the need for a strident feminist voice in music. in this sense she is very smart. for me, hanna is about telling a different side of the story, about working with the potential for conflict and contradiction to create. but this is just how i reconcile my love for her music with some of the dodgier things she says...

I've never really listened to much of the early 90's riot grrrl stuff besides Bikini Kill, but "Bloody Ice Cream" (my favorite Bikini Kill song) is as vicious a punk tune as they come. I like Le Tigre a lot as well. And if Sleater-Kinney count as riot grrl, then Classic. Of course I don't really care about politics in music too much, so whatever naive or extreme things someone like Kathleen Hannah says don't affect my opinion of their music. And even if she does say things that are wrong-headed or short-sighted or whatver, its cool at least that she inspires girls to want to make music and be more vocal and active, etc.

Fin

Kathleen's lyrics might not always be direct expressions of her views, but she says/sings them and puts her name to them, so she's accountable for them.

I think I _do_ understand her a little, and understand the things she says even if I don't agree with them. Obviously I don't get it all right.

I think it's very dangerous to exaggerate, simplify and convert to mono, which seems to be what you're suggesting it's okay for her to do, TLML.

i don't think she is so naive to think that its hard for men to defy their roles!
I think you meant 'not hard'. Because it IS hard for men to defy their roles!

I too love her music and am sometimes caught short by the dodgier stuff she says.

I love talking about this sort of stuff.

And I'm going to see LT twice soon! In Bristol and London!
Yay!

"Revolt in Russia – the charisma of protest / Revolt in Russia, Putin's got scared!

I like the sound of masked Russian Riot Grrrl-inspired band Pussy Riot

http://www.openspace.ru/m/photo/2011/12/01/pussy_riot_b_1.jpg

Music and visuals here are pretty cool actually...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZUhkWiiv7M&feature=related

it is a bit huggy bearish