Site New Answers Search Boards ILE ILM Answers New Question New Questions New Poll Blog View Register Login

Why the hell does xgau keep asking "who cares?" in his consumer guides?

Message Bookmarked

Bookmark Removed

I'm nobody's definition of a New Pornographers fan, but how the FUCK does the man who thinks the Mekons made the best album of 2002 (talk about futile protests from confused liberals against the current administration!) dignify his frequent use of the phrases "who cares?" when referring to bands who have WAY more fans than some of his favorite combos (wrongheaded or not, I can guarandamntee more people care who the bassist in Weezer is then care if half the bands in this week's guide ever released a single note).

Why is he saying "who cares?" which seems like a pompous slap to the artist's fanbase (the only people who will care that he's MAKING such a claim) rather than "this is not worth caring about," which is much more of a slap to the ARTIST. What's with the guy who thinks A Thousand Leaves and the Latin Playboys are the best thing since chopped liver making all these claims about the worthlessness of obscurity and trivia?

(I just looked at his website and evidently he's tacked the phrase to the end of the usually hilarious Distinctions Not Cost-Effective chapters of his books, so I assume he's been whipping this exclamation out for AGES. It's easily the most bullying thing I've seen him do in print)

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 16:15 (twenty-two years ago)

just in case it's not clear, I'm totally fine when he uses the phrase "who cares?" to DEFEND a band (i.e., when he asks whether it should matter the best songs on Luna's EP are covers). It's when he uses the phrase to attack the audience that pisses me off.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 16:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Christgau in pompous jackass shocker?

As if it were a shock.

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 16:22 (twenty-two years ago)

the new pornographers = j. geils band

― fields of salmon (fieldsofsalmon), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 16:23 (twenty-two years ago)

>>Why the hell does xgau keep asking "who cares?" in his consumer guides?<<<

Who cares, Anthony???

(And actually, I doubt Zumpano sell as many CDs as the Mekons.)

(Actually, "who cares?" generally means "I can't imagine why somebody would give a shit." Which can be a VERY appropriate response to music. Pretty much sums up my opinion of Radiohead, matter of fact.)

― chuck, Tuesday, 17 June 2003 16:43 (twenty-two years ago)

And what's wrong with attacking audiences, anyway? (I always hated it when stupid editors at Spin said I thought I had contempt for, say, the indie or rave audience. Well, maybe I DID!! And, um, so what??)

― chuck, Tuesday, 17 June 2003 16:44 (twenty-two years ago)

I meant, they said THEY tought I had contempt for, etc. (Or really, they thought my writing implied that I had contempt for, etc.) (And by the way, I've also had contempt for some audiences with ME IN THEM sometimes. Again, why can that not be a valid response to music??)

― chuck, Tuesday, 17 June 2003 16:46 (twenty-two years ago)

stupid editors at Spin

Surely this is redundant--like saying "puppy dog" or "HIV virus."

― adam (adam), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 16:48 (twenty-two years ago)

the new pornographers = j. geils band

In their DREAMS!

― Andy K (Andy K), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 16:49 (twenty-two years ago)

saying "who cares?" and "anybody who gives a shit who the bass player in Weezer is needs their head examined" are two very different things. In the latter, you're at least admitting they EXIST. Personally, that makes all the difference.

also, using "who cares?" instead of "I don't care" seems like you're trying to imply strength-in-numbers rather than standing by your opinion alone. It's the difference between saying "nobody thinks that's cool" and "I don't think that's cool."

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 16:50 (twenty-two years ago)

It's just a rhetorical device, Anthony - is it just me, or do you just not like RC & this is grating at you because, like, you don't dig him?

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 16:51 (twenty-two years ago)

John, you're talking to guy who's read Grown Up All Wrong LOTS of times and always checks his webpage to find out Xgau thought about old albums that I recently bought (I probably agree with him a lot more than I don't). I'm a Christgau FAN, but I think this particular device is really bullying.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 16:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh! Then I'm just wrong, nothing new there! Sorry 'bout that

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 16:55 (twenty-two years ago)

wait...are you being like ironic and stuff? *perplexed*

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 16:56 (twenty-two years ago)

No - not being ironic! Saying "I misread you, I am often wrong and here's another incidence of that" - that's all! NB "I am often wrong" does not apply to any situation in which Momus & I are arguing

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 17:00 (twenty-two years ago)

John, do you just like him because he thinks there's tremendous emotional oomph in your first person? :)

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 17:00 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm pretty agnostic about Christgau and I still see Anthony's point. "Who cares" summons a predictable response from the fans -- "We care! Deeply!" -- which Christgau clearly knows to be the case. The "who cares" question seems more like a way of shutting those people out of the communication between Christgau and audience, of saying that in this equation the people who "care" are irrelevant to the point of non-existence: "no one in this room" -- writer and readers -- "know who these people are or care either way." Which is a bit fakey -- he knows perfectly well who the bands' fans are and what they're thinking -- plus slightly irritating as rhetoric, because it turns criticism into a brick wall, or at least makes it a little solipsistic for Christgau: he knows someone cares, so there's no point bringing them up unless he feels like thinking about why.

He doesn't want to think about that, a lot of the time, which is part of what makes him fun to read. But the bored "I'm baffled that anyone digs this" that's wrapped up in the "who cares" is probably bad rhetoric, cause you know it's not true. He doesn't have the word count to really argue with them, so he just pretends to be amazed that they exist at all -- it's like an American liberal walking around going "for Christ's sake, who the hell could be against gun control?" Well, you know, various people: pretending it's completely obvious doesn't really answer the questions.

(Incidentally "pretending it's completely obvious" seems to me to be Christgau's biggest strength.)

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 17:07 (twenty-two years ago)

in case somebody doesn't my earlier reference: xgau cops mad love to the Anti-Momus

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 17:10 (twenty-two years ago)

I agree that it's bullying, and it's also a pretty weak rhetorical device when it's used as often as this. It becomes a cop out. Now, if he was to replace "who cares" with "where's the beef"...well, let's just say that me and my buddies in the Western Canadian Cattlemen's Association would be pretty durn tickled.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 17:11 (twenty-two years ago)

xgau repeatedly asking "where's the beef?" would be the classicest classic that ever classiced.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 17:12 (twenty-two years ago)

$20 sez this fascinating debate on the rhetorics of "who cares?" in the Christgau ouevre tops 500 posts.

― bookie, Tuesday, 17 June 2003 17:14 (twenty-two years ago)

(Actually a better way of saying what I was saying is that as rhetoric a "who cares" is always followed by an implied nudging "right? right?" -- so it only really works when the right proportions of your audience are gonna think "right!" back at you. Overreach it and people just think "no, I care" and both parties wander warily off, deeply skeptical of one another. I mention this because the New Pornographers "who cares" Anthony's referring to doesn't read exactly the way he says -- it goes "Is this what Zumpano sounded like? Who cares?" Zumpano were okay, but I that's a "who cares" I pretty much get.)

― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 17:16 (twenty-two years ago)

C'mon Mistah, I'll take yer bet, gimme another shot, pally. I sez 600 easy!

― Jitters McGamble (ham on rye), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 17:17 (twenty-two years ago)

I think you two are seriously jinxing that possiblity.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 17:21 (twenty-two years ago)

I never like the critical method of castigating an audience or fellow critics. Seems to be the easy way out. For example, it makes a film critic like Armond White entertaining, but also impossible to take seriously...

― ham on rye (ham on rye), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 17:25 (twenty-two years ago)

John, do you just like him because he thinks there's tremendous emotional oomph in your first person? :)

Very funny Anthony - I wanted to comment on this thread but held back for several posts because I feared somebody saying "you just like him because he reviewed your record favorably," probably I should have followed my first instinct

(that's not as bitchy as it sounds but, yeah, I'm sensitive about that)

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 17:28 (twenty-two years ago)

I was gonna say something about how Bobbo just resorts to "Who cares?" because he's run out of clever things to say (I mean c'mon, it's THE NEW PORNOGRAPHERS. DeCurtis could even find a joke in that name!), but then I looked over his site again and found this pearl:

SIGUR RÓS: ( ) (MCA) ?_;@$.is C

― Charles McCain (Charles McCain), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 17:46 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm going to chime in and say it's symptomatic of a larger degree of general apathy [RE: American's not caring about their rampant war-mongering leaders].

I myself have been saying that phrase quite a bit: "Who cares?" Indeed.

― david day (winslow), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 18:17 (twenty-two years ago)

haha!

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 18:20 (twenty-two years ago)

that sigur ros review is hilarious

― jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 18:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Is there any particular reason why Christgau is taken more seriously than any other critic, or anyone writing on this message board? He's only marginally better than the average hack music critic, from everything I've ever read.

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 18:43 (twenty-two years ago)

In other words,

Christgau, who cares?

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 18:44 (twenty-two years ago)

yawn

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 18:47 (twenty-two years ago)

yawn : typical response to the Village Voice music section?

― Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 18:48 (twenty-two years ago)

In other words, "In other words, 'Christgau: Who Cares': Who cares?"

― s1utsky (slutsky), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 18:48 (twenty-two years ago)

typical response to people whining about rock critics

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 18:48 (twenty-two years ago)

As the self-appointed Dean Of American Rock Criticism, he cultivates being taken seriously... I'm not giving an opinion coz I'd like to write for the Voice sometime!

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 18:51 (twenty-two years ago)

new topic: who cares about whether anybody cares about christgau caring about whether or not anyone cares about what anyone cares about? ( slutsky you made me dizzy. i gotta go lie down)

― scott seward, Tuesday, 17 June 2003 18:54 (twenty-two years ago)

I am lying down and you've completely flummoxed me scott...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 18:56 (twenty-two years ago)

John, I really didn't mean anything by my statement (hence the smiley face). I was just mock-misreading you in response to your misreading me (plus it gave me the chance to type the word "oomph"). Twas all in fun! Sorry.

And folks, I do take Xgau more seriously then most critics, cuz I actually care what he thinks about stuff. John Mendlessohn does this kind of "who cares?" bullcrap all the time, but I don't like his articles enough to comment on that as loudly.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 18:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Christgau is practically the original hack. By the way, I've always wondered about the criteria for his rating system, and now I know it. Here it is in case you were wondering:

"The rating system will be A down to E with all the plusses and minuses, based on the question: If I was going away and could only take 100 records along, what are the chances this would be one of them? (Don't laugh--last vacation I took about 75 and favored the newer stuff.) As are certain, Bs are Maybe, Cs are Conceivable. Ds are Have Some Minimal Merit But Who Cares. Es are Shit. Remember my prejudices, now--I am indifferent to most rock improvisation, dislike white blues, love black blues - but can do without many of the second-raters riding the current crest, and am very anti-pretension. Let's move it."

That comes from his very first Consumer Guide (archived, like nearly everything else he's done, on the website), which is very funny if you imagine it being spoken by a blunted-out, Afro-wearing young Xgau.

― Charles McCain (Charles McCain), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 18:59 (twenty-two years ago)

"As are certain, Bs are Maybe, Cs are Conceivable. Ds are Have Some Minimal Merit But Who Cares. Es are Shit. "

actually, this makes a good bit of sense to me (though I think he'd probably be pickier now and in later consumer guide's he made his formula less vague). and I want to say god bless xgau for making me feel less lonely in my need to constant classify art.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 19:02 (twenty-two years ago)

"dislike white blues, love black blues"

God does this ever say so much about him.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 19:06 (twenty-two years ago)

come off it, he wrote that in the sixties!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 19:07 (twenty-two years ago)

it should be remembered that was probably written in about 69 or so. (x-post!)

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 19:08 (twenty-two years ago)

i never understood his love for the joy of cooking. but he sez in one review that he can dance AND fuck to them, so maybe that's good enough for him.

― scott seward, Tuesday, 17 June 2003 19:11 (twenty-two years ago)

So what, he gets no pass. I mean, I normally yawn at the Xgau hate myself, but that statement is laughable. I mean he's just laying out for all the world to see that he IS a tin-eared hack! (also the part about improvisation). He never cared to train his ears to, you know, listen to what's going on in a piece of music (also see his disdain for electronic music). For him it's about scene and amateur sociology and statement. Ugh.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 19:12 (twenty-two years ago)

.. and like I say I read him and respect him and all that good stuff. It's just his aesthetic is so opposite to mine, is all.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 19:13 (twenty-two years ago)

I've never understood the Christgau worship myself (nor any critic worship)...I suppose it's because he's been around awhile to put it mildly. His opinion is no more informed than anyone else's, maybe even slightly less in some cases.....except for Sri Lankan tribal chants or what not.

― ham on rye (ham on rye), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 19:33 (twenty-two years ago)

haha, that reminds me of a team clermont whine about xgau: 'he hates everything from athens and loves everything from africa'

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 19:40 (twenty-two years ago)

here's the bigger problem...the dude took RECORDS with him on vacation. RECORDS.

Am I the only one who likes to go home at the end of a hard day's rock write and not be OWNED by music?

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 19:45 (twenty-two years ago)

it's a funny thing, but when i listen to what's going on in a piece of blues, 9 times out of 10 i find the stuff i like best just happens by some weird coincidence to have been made by a black guy. weird, huh?

― Ben Williams, Tuesday, 17 June 2003 19:45 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, what type of freak listens to music outside of the workplace?

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 19:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Do plumbers go home and stare at their own sink?

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 19:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Robert Christgau is absolutely fucking awful.

― Evan (Evan), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 19:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Do gynacologists go home and...nevermind.

― Charles McCain (Charles McCain), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 19:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Horace Mann are you Eeyore?

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 19:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 19:54 (twenty-two years ago)

it's a funny thing, but when i listen to what's going on in a piece of blues, 9 times out of 10 i find the stuff i like best just happens by some weird coincidence to have been made by a black guy. weird, huh?

But would you announce to the world, from public position of arbiter, that you only like the "black stuff"? Why bother to make the distinction, why wear someone's else skin color as your badge of honor?

(btw, I'm not judging Xgau anymore here, just trying to get Ben to open up regarding his own silly defensive comment)

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 19:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Here's a whole new issue: Is it better (in some sort of moral/ethical sense) to be upfront with your racism or sneaky about it?

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 19:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Just trying to hit those 500 posts...

I don't really see how saying "i like black blues" amounts to anything as pompous as "wearing someone else's skin color as a badge of honor."

It's just a simple statement of preference. And a pretty defensible one when it comes to blues, I think. Or would you take Clapton and Stevie Ray over Muddy Waters and BB King? If so, you're welcome.

Pretending that race doesn't exist? Now that's silly and defensive...

― Ben Williams, Tuesday, 17 June 2003 20:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Somebody's begging a question.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 20:05 (twenty-two years ago)

I dislike white hip-hop, love black hip-hop.

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 20:06 (twenty-two years ago)

No I wouldn't take Clapton and Stevie Ray over Muddy and BB. But I'd take Elvin Bishop and Peter Green over the first two. And I'd probably take Green over Buddy Guy (at least once Guy got to Chess - I like those early sides). And I'd probably take Bishop in the 60's over someone like, say, Son Seals or a lot of the Alligator stable. Once you've shut you're ears off on the basis of race, you're unable to make those distinctions, unfortunately.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 20:07 (twenty-two years ago)

(Chuck Eddy in defending Christgau shocker.)

― Rockist Scientist, Tuesday, 17 June 2003 20:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Anson Funderburgh and Dave Specter as well, to name a couple of fine bluesmen....and the late, great harp player William Clarke (better than almost any other bluesman over the past ten years)

― ham on rye (ham on rye), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 20:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, yeah, there are fine-tuned distinctions to be made about everything. Doesn't mean a big sweeping generalization doesn't have more truth than not in it.

Looks like Christgau somehow managed to give both Bishop and Green their due. Gee, who woulda thunk it?

― Ben Williams, Tuesday, 17 June 2003 20:17 (twenty-two years ago)

I mean, it's a problem when you've staked out a dilettante approach, as Xgau has. He does his thing and he does it well, reviewing the hundreds and hundreds of records that come across his desk in a unique style that's wholly his own. Ok, he might have written something like "I prefer black blues" but I don't want to make it sound like it rankles my feathers all that much - I just think it's funny; I'm never going to look to him for proper analysis of a blues record anyway (or a jazz record, or a techno record, etc.) He's not going to write "the great thing about Freddie King is the wonderful economy of his bends." All territory hashed out on ILM before ... sorry to have started it up again.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 20:18 (twenty-two years ago)

― Ben Williams, Tuesday, 17 June 2003 20:18 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.drjazz.ch/album/bilder/jgb11.jpg

― fields of salmon (fieldsofsalmon), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 20:20 (twenty-two years ago)

right, Ben, I never said Xgau didn't like those guys - he said it himself! You've caught him in a trap!

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 20:22 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think I can compete on this level of literal-mindedness.

― Ben Williams, Tuesday, 17 June 2003 20:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Fair enough - I've never been much of a "big sweeping generalization" guy, myself.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Tuesday, 17 June 2003 20:37 (twenty-two years ago)

four years pass...

does anybody care about his consumer guide now that he's on msn? r.i.p. ilm/xgau clusterfucks :(

― gershy, Tuesday, 8 January 2008 07:48 (seventeen years ago)

i don't really "care" per se, but i skim it every month nonetheless, out of habit.

― stephen, Tuesday, 8 January 2008 17:00 (seventeen years ago)

he's on msn now?

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 8 January 2008 22:32 (seventeen years ago)

i thought he retired despite the village voice's begging him to remain on board w/an increased salary.

― omar little, Tuesday, 8 January 2008 22:34 (seventeen years ago)

new pornographers = who cares?

― gabbneb, Tuesday, 8 January 2008 22:34 (seventeen years ago)

how did he end up there? it could be worse -- he might've ended up at salon or something.

― fukasaku tollbooth, Tuesday, 8 January 2008 22:43 (seventeen years ago)

answ: because he's a shitty writer

― That one guy that hit it and quit it, Tuesday, 8 January 2008 22:44 (seventeen years ago)

big hoos: http://music.msn.com/music/consumerguide

― stephen, Tuesday, 8 January 2008 22:58 (seventeen years ago)

I still read it!

― da croupier, Wednesday, 9 January 2008 00:31 (seventeen years ago)

You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.

Site New Answers Search Boards ILE ILM Answers New Question New Questions New Poll Blog View Register Login