Spot Judgements in Music Journalism

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In October 1977, Trouser Press declares New Wave is dead -- yet to the best of my knowledge, most people don't even consider it starting until around 1978. Perhaps they had considered the term differently back then. Or, maybe as the years have past, we have glossed over the original sentiment. Or, maybe they were just trying to be the first ones to pronounce a budding trend dead.

The point is, I see this all the time. Mags in 1992 already pronouncing grunge dead, before Pearl Jam even appears on Saturday Night Live; Trouser Press, the very same year as the above issue, asking "what ever happened to Heavy Metal", before *actual* heavy metal as I know it even existed. Some of this surely has to do with the definitions of these terms at the time -- but can this account for every incident?

How much can we evaluate a relatively new "wave" of music during the time it is actually happening? How do our judgements compare to the judgements of future writers and fans, regarding "authenticity" and accuracy?

dleone (dleone), Thursday, 19 June 2003 16:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Heh. Very interesting to bring up this question, Dleone, seeing as Tim and I have been talking a bit about questions of evaluation and approach elsewhere on the top singles 2003 thread. I won't speak for Tim when he can do that so well himself, though.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 19 June 2003 16:56 (twenty-two years ago)

everybody knows that a movement must be "dead" before it is absorbed into the mainstream.
Just like you wouldn't eat a live animal.
DUH.

Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 19 June 2003 16:59 (twenty-two years ago)

There has been a lot of historical confusion about the phrase "new wave," which meant one thing in the UK at one point and then, a few years later, something entirely different in the US. Time has favored the latter, hence the problem. When I wrote in the fall of 1977 that "new wave" was dead, I was addressing what now is commonly referred to as punk - the explosion of bands that, conventional wisdom holds, followed the 7/4/76 Ramones London Roundhouse show - the Damned, Pistols, Clash, Subway Sect, Adverts, etc. Those bands, in aggregate, were considered and called rock's new wave, lumped in with the American contingent that preceded them - Ramones, TV, Blondie, Pere Ubu, etc - as well as the international contingent (Saints, Stinky Toys, etc.). That was the new wave, and that was what i was writing about - the commercialization and co-option of their original rock in opposition ethos. Granted, in retrospect, it's so obvious as to be downright axiomatic, but I was trying to keep a mental and cultural grip on the idea that bands could not simultaneously be within and without mainstream/industry/audience expectations. (OK, perhaps time has proven that wrong, but there was no way to imagine the rise of indie superstardom or the reversal of corporate power that some bands would later manage to exert.)

The notion that "new wave" didn't exist until 1978 only works if you overlook history and instead accept the subsequent Americanized definition of what overtook punk into the friendlier, poppier and more commercially viable sound which ended up sparking a stack of John Hughes movies and to this day is called new wave: the Cars, A Flock of Seagulls, Elvis Costello, Joe Jackson, Romantics, OMD, Shirts, Psychedelic Furs... I'm not castigating this music - I like it fine - but it's important to note that the terms new wave and punk were, for a time, all but interchangable (one a movement, the other a style) and then ceased to be so.

Ira Robbins, Thursday, 19 June 2003 17:32 (twenty-two years ago)

well there was the whole electronica=rockisdead thang a few years back, wasn't there? or am i remembering wrong? i seem to recall simon reynolds comparing rock to a diseased patch of lichen on a decaying oak tree or somesuch in the pazz and jop the year that electronica broke. maybe i'm confusing spot judgements with hype though. but fatboy/chem bros/prodigy were supposed to be toppling something or other. so anyway fast forward: nu-metal, garage rock, led zeppelin in album of the year shocker.

scott seward, Thursday, 19 June 2003 17:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Rock is perpetually dead or being saved by some vital band/bands.

Jon Williams (ex machina), Thursday, 19 June 2003 17:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Ira, I get it, hence my suspicion that you were defining the term "new wave" differently than I know it today. However, I think my original post stands on the grounds of looking at real-time evaluation versus retrospective evaluation. There are obviously things that get lost in the shuffle for both points of view, and maybe I'm looking for answers to get around this in my own writing -- or at least be able to better see the pitfalls of one or the other.

dleone (dleone), Thursday, 19 June 2003 18:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Won't real-time evaluation almost always be more accurate, simply because, in the thick of things, the winners and losers of a movement are far from clear? Rock history gives too much credit to some artists (the infamous 50,000 people only heard the Velvet Underground but blah blah blah), which can whitewash/ignore some of the struggles/faults of a scene/sound/whathaveyou, which are generally more interesting, I think.

Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 19 June 2003 18:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Which is to say, yes they are incomplete or inaccurate, but I find those ommissions and errors extremely interesting. (a.k.a. why I love Rock's Backpages)

Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 19 June 2003 18:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Dang, I'm still getting over the fact Ira Robbins just posted. :-) Hi there!

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 19 June 2003 18:30 (twenty-two years ago)

ha ha Ned, I thought I was the only one who noticed that.

Kenan Hebert (kenan), Thursday, 19 June 2003 18:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Writing to impress today versus writing to impress tomorrow: tomorrow's a bigger audience, but if you can't convince people today no one in the future will ever hear what you had to say.

Personally I like reading things from the past that destroy my idea of canonical music history: I like to be surprised that people in the moment had wildly different opinions about the course of things than the ones that "won." For pretty much that reason, I don't like the idea of fretting about how "right" you'll be in the long term; I don't like writing that bears evidence of hedging one's bets against the future. Say it loud, say it proud, etc.

nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 19 June 2003 19:01 (twenty-two years ago)

There is also that old chestnut that as soon as people get round to examining a musical movement/genre/sub-genre its momentum has already slowed/gone. as all criticism is done in retrospect, this can, up to a point, be true; especially of some sections of electronic music, which is mainly what I concentrate on. the good side of this is that it is a large part of what makes music appreciation and writing so damned... to hell with it, I'm gonna say it... FUN! Getting there first, catching the wave's crest, getting it down on paper and really telling people stuff about something fresh new and inspiring before it loses all these characteristics and becomes accepted/quotidian/stale. the downside, however, is - especially now, with the machinery of the music press moving so damned fast and, in many ways, in a far more calculated scene-making, "what's the next big thing" kinda way than in the past - it leads people to proclaim musical styles dead before they've even gotten off the ground, like: "hey, we were the first to dicover this and we're going to be first to kill it off and find its successor"...

Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 19 June 2003 19:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Both Nabisco and Dave raise good points that echo some of Tim's but here's my conundrum in part -- I enjoy writing but I do not particularly find interest in this goal of 'getting there first' (and to Tim's credit he specifically speaks against the idea of an implicit oneupsmanship). Perhaps my question is, is there room for a measure of discourse that is neither retrospective nor so bent on capturing the 'now' that it excludes those that might want to comment but aren't so interested in the goals of staking out a claim before a scene dies/is codified further (as opposed to being codified right that second).

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 19 June 2003 19:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Sure, Ned, write about Jazz or Blues or field recordings from Tibet or something.

Mr. Diamond (diamond), Thursday, 19 June 2003 19:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Nabisco, if you look, I think you'll find plenty of things from the present that destroy canonical music history as well -- however, while the audience of the future may be a bigger target market, I'm not so sure their writers' headlines are getting the most exposure. In five years, who is going to want to read a cover story on Hail to the Thief? How long before today's headlines' impact is overhauled? There will be half a generation of people who grew up with the party lines put forth by the very first reviews of the record.

1) is this appropriate?
2) is it reasonable to expect constant reevalution of music?
3) does it even matter, as people are wont to form their own opinions regardless of the reviews?

And despite my questions, I also greatly enjoy reading old articles about music. I used to spend hours reading the 68-71 editions of Rolling Stone my school library used to keep.

dleone (dleone), Thursday, 19 June 2003 19:19 (twenty-two years ago)

I'll take it as a joke, Mr. Diamond ;-) but that's not the answer I'm looking for.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 19 June 2003 19:22 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, i guess what I'm saying is that it's great to get there first if it is a REAL, GENUINE thing and something you have an investment in. feeling that you have to, though, just for the sake of it or creating scenes out of the ether just to fill a magazine's remit of being on the cutting edge = dud and leads to some mind-blowingly dull, inane journalism... also it propagates a kind of hyperspeed flourish-wither cycle that actively hinders the development of music and proper criticism, so i'm pretty "anti" unless it an organic process...

Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 19 June 2003 19:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, it's not really a joke though, Ned. I mean, if you've chosen to work in the realm of Pop/Rock, how can you escape the journalistic emphasis on finding the new? It's what those genres are predicated upon (even if on the rock side of the equation the "new" becomes more a case of literally the newest practitioners on the scene, rather than formal innovation).

I mean if you're uncomfortable with that emphasis, it doesn't seem like it would be a fruitful area to work in.

Mr. Diamond (diamond), Thursday, 19 June 2003 19:28 (twenty-two years ago)

So the goal of getting there first is actually more an icing on the cake than a goal per se, Dave? I apologize if that sounds strange or leading.

how can you escape the journalistic emphasis on finding the new?

Well, precisely my reasons for asking this. I think I find that the 'journalistic' aspect -- the desire to scoop, to discover -- is indeed off-putting by its very nature. It demands a level of constant discipline that I'm ultimately not fond of, a potential obsessive focus for its own sake. And is it that the genres are predicated upon it or the business?

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 19 June 2003 19:32 (twenty-two years ago)

it's the business.

scott seward, Thursday, 19 June 2003 19:34 (twenty-two years ago)

heh, as someone who has listened to diff types of music (as have most of you i guess) that's the thing that I have thought abt: I go to a gig and see this thing that is actually NEW or whatever => what would be my reaction to it?

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Thursday, 19 June 2003 19:38 (twenty-two years ago)

it's THE WHOLE reason for doing it, loving music being part of it, getting history down on paper... but you gotta really believe it is history and I can't imagine that anyone really does with things like electroclash, for example... when it's just hype it's very counterproductive and pointless...

Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 19 June 2003 19:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, D, I'm thinking slightly along other lines here, not current-day busting of the established canon. For instance: the canon tells us the Sex Pistols were the flagship of UK punk; this was obviously believed by plenty of people then and is obviously believed by plenty of people now. But sometimes you'll stumble across something that reminds you how this sort of thing was once uncertain, once unclaimed: you can find some odd writing from 1977 by someone who didn't much rate the Pistols and thought some go-nowhere punks you've never heard of were the future of it all. I like seeing that sort of thing; it's almost like getting a glimpse of alternate histories, seeing how up-in-the-air things always are at the moment. People today bust the canons of the past, and make arguments for how the present should be canonized, but we still live in that up-in-the-air moment -- not to mention which anyone who makes a big deal of it is necessarily being self-conscious. Part of what interests me is the idea that someone in 2020 could look up some run-of-mill review of that Radiohead record and get an image of it not as the flat historical thing, but rather get an image of our moment as being very complex and containing loads of different opinions and viewpoints -- some of them very interesting ones that somehow got lost in the intervening years.

nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 19 June 2003 19:45 (twenty-two years ago)

The hyperbolic ("x is dead") sells. Most judgements are spot, though, eh? JBR recently had excerpts of contemporary Zeppelin reviews; it was interesting to see what someone thought of a song before knowing it was to be the most-played ever. Taking a stab is fine if you're being honest about it; the mercenary would-be kingmakers are fairly obvious.

mookieproof (mookieproof), Thursday, 19 June 2003 19:49 (twenty-two years ago)

THE WHOLE reason for doing it, loving music being part of it, getting history down on paper... but you gotta really believe it is history

But Dave, this is interesting because now you're elevating certain genres (or at the least denigrating other ones) into what is worth keeping/discussing about and what isn't, in otherwards you're already projecting a judgment. In contrast, Tim Finney, for instance, is specifically denying he's writing what he writes on, say, garage-rap for the history aspect of it (though I've argued, perhaps poorly, that what he's doing is historicizing by default), but instead because it is a thrill that can be captured in a moment which might not in fact last the test of time. Hmm...

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 19 June 2003 19:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Nabisco, I guess we're in total agreement then, except there is a part of me that wants to extend beyond reporting the here and now, and be able to "communicate" with someone reading about this band in ten years -- perhaps some way to leave clues so that they don't have to figure out my 2003-trained-brain. OK, so this is a lot to do with me reading new stuff about old bands from time to time, and being drastically underwhelmed at the amount of insight, and surprised at the amount of info-rehash that passes for "depth".

dleone (dleone), Thursday, 19 June 2003 20:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Well put, Dom. Which is why this series gives me the fear, despite the presence of a few great writers.

Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 19 June 2003 20:02 (twenty-two years ago)

ned, i've always thought criticism is about being judgemental, subjective and very, very personal... and what you say about Tim historicizing by default is really interesting... because he is... i recognised this a while ago and have embraced the idea, all i've conciously decided is that i don't want to be scarbbling away for something that isn't really there butif i come across something that really is special, like the start of 2step garage, d&b etc early in and really *get* it/fall in love with it, then that's great... and re tim again: he's a great writer and deserves to make a little bit of history!

Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 19 June 2003 20:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, as far as I'm concerned, Tim Finney should be made rich and famous by his writings and be worshipped as a god by generations hence! :-) No arguments there!

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 19 June 2003 20:22 (twenty-two years ago)

he's great i want to get him in on a magazine i'm working on... could do with sending him a mail...

Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 19 June 2003 20:24 (twenty-two years ago)

That you should do. :-)

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 19 June 2003 20:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Raggett - you're bumming me out!!!

Cozen (Cozen), Thursday, 19 June 2003 22:00 (twenty-two years ago)

There are so many canons out there that I'm waiting for the Crisis On Infinite Canons where the Sex Pistols who invented punk battle with the Sex Pistols who ended punk while the Sex Pistols who merely popularized punk as fashion watches from behind a tree.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 19 June 2003 22:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Raggett - you're bumming me out!!!

Er? I'm not meaning to!

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 19 June 2003 22:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Ha, I know Ned, I've just been following you round the board all day shaking my head. I guess I've been feeling conflicted recently: won over by so much music but still not listening excessively, just little sparse moments / bouts of exposure. I've been trying not to get too weighed down by the past as well: delving into the Simple Minds back catalogue ("New Gold Dream", "Sister Feelings Call": WOW) all the while being circumscribed by this wary feeling that this is just the tip. And if I want to appreciate this all fully I'm going to have to dig (which seems like a 'work' ethic rather than a 'play' one).

(I'm also perpetually frustrated at my inabilities: inability to write, to write straight, to nail New Pop to the stick I've crafted [basically it was as much a written 'shaft of light' as a musical one]).

Anxiety all round, I suppose.

Cozen (Cozen), Thursday, 19 June 2003 22:26 (twenty-two years ago)

(Completely off thread, btw, actually should've posted it to the 'singles 2003' thread.)

Cozen (Cozen), Thursday, 19 June 2003 22:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Man I'd love to nail that New Pop.

N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 19 June 2003 22:34 (twenty-two years ago)

i nailed yr nude pop

and yr mum too, Thursday, 19 June 2003 22:38 (twenty-two years ago)

My dear Cozen -- *good thoughts* -- don't be so down on your own abilities! And think of it this way -- is there any problem with sparse moments and bouts of exposure as compared to a full delving? Ultimately I'd say not (and that too might be my own answer for my conundrum, perhaps). If you're getting pleasure out of what you have, then maybe appreciating 'fully' isn't always or necessarily the answer -- at least phrased that way. Dave makes a wonderful case for the power of sheer ultimate captivation and exploration but if we are simply talking in terms of the basic joy of music and reaction to what you hear, then it sounds like you are indeed getting that pleasure without having to 'work.' And why not?

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 19 June 2003 23:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Getting to music first is as undesirable as getting to the pub first.

Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Friday, 20 June 2003 06:08 (twenty-two years ago)

I like getting to the pub first. It means I have my pick of seats.

kate (kate), Friday, 20 June 2003 07:39 (twenty-two years ago)

'circumscribed by this wary feeling that this is just the tip'

that sounds really yechhy when you mis-read it

dave q, Friday, 20 June 2003 07:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Dave Q, intellectual mohel.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 20 June 2003 09:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Getting to the pub first is often good, especially if you want to drink quite a lot - you get to enjoy a couple more beers than everyone else in relative peace and quiet before everyone else turns up... cozen don't worry about not writing straight... we like you wobbly!

Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 20 June 2003 10:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes when I want peace and quiet the first place I turn to is the boozer.

Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Friday, 20 June 2003 10:21 (twenty-two years ago)

I said relative - in a reading the paper, watching the world go by kinda way... admittedly it doesn't work very well as a metaphor for music/club culture, which is pretty noisy in general but hey...

Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Friday, 20 June 2003 10:35 (twenty-two years ago)

"...is specifically denying he's writing what he writes on, say, garage-rap for the history aspect of it (though I've argued, perhaps poorly, that what he's doing is historicizing by default), but instead because it is a thrill that can be captured in a moment which might not in fact last the test of time."

The thing about historicising-by-default (and Ned if this is what you meant then I understand you and agree with you) is that the process by which it becomes history (cf. response, polemic, love letter, vendetta, snore) is kinda post-facto - it's not deliberate history-writing and if we're talking about the value of the pursuit then authorial intention becomes sort of relevant. All responses to music will inevitably become part of a context that stretches into the past and future, but at the time of creation I don't think writing about music feels like history-writing unless you have an idea of where the music's going. And it's the chance to do all those things apart from history writing that's the attraction, whether or not the results ends up as history after all. So while something I write now might in a year seemed to have "pinned down" something, I don't think it's possible for it to feel that way now.

(and it's the parts that *don't* end up as history that are the most interesting, surely - I think I'd find the "New Wave Is Dead" article fascinating for the very reason that it necessarily goes against the grain of received wisdom).

Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Friday, 20 June 2003 16:13 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think writing about music feels like history-writing unless you have an idea of where the music's going

Which is definitely I think where you and Dave differ or at least seem to -- then again I'm not sure if Dave is fully suggesting where the music is going so much as expressing a definite conviction that it WILL go somewhere because it is of a certain quality, a subtle but intriguing distinction. But he can say more if he likes! And yes, I did mean that to a large extent, Tim -- post-facto but also called into existence precisely by being a 'fixed' moment in time, different from the fleeting and uncommunicated thought. What it discusses might not be pinned down (I apologize if that is being overused as a term, perhaps there is a better one) overtly or with direct intent, to be sure.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 20 June 2003 16:22 (twenty-two years ago)


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