Defend the Indefensible 7: Leonard Cohen

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there's been much more housemartins and doors love on ILM than i thought beforehand. not so much reo speedwagon love but who gives a fuck about them anyway?

i suspect there's a fair amount of leonard cohen love here since this is a fairly literate bunch, a number of people seem to like similar stuff (i.e., dylan, tindersticks, gainsbourg). as for me, i'm really hard-pressed to think of anything redeeming about this guy. "poetic" lyrics "sung" by a guy with the vocal range of a toad, with pedestrian music (which his fans think make him "classic" b/c it's like gainsbourg and "french" like, but to me it sounds like a guy who just doesn't give a fuck and knows that his fans will buy anything with his toad-croaking slathered on top).

what is the appeal of this guy anyway?

― Tad (llamasfur), Friday, 20 June 2003 06:37 (twenty-two years ago)

the only worthwhile thing that leonard cohen inspired IMHO. this:

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000256G.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

inspired this album cover:

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000002HGQ.01._PE17_SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg

― Tad (llamasfur), Friday, 20 June 2003 06:40 (twenty-two years ago)

(except fer that 17% sticker of course!)

― Tad (llamasfur), Friday, 20 June 2003 06:41 (twenty-two years ago)

"...and other forms of boredom advertised as poetry..."

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 20 June 2003 06:41 (twenty-two years ago)

God, that first greatest hits comp is like the best nap music ever (and I don't mean that in any haha derogatory sarcastic way - other great nap music albums: In A Silent Way, Amnesiac, Moon Safari)

― James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 20 June 2003 06:43 (twenty-two years ago)

LC also wrote one of my all-time favorite sarcastically self-pitying/mock-apologetic lyrics evah: "Your vision was right/My vision was wrong/I'm sorry for smudging the air with my song." I used to drop that last line into conversation whenever the occasion called for it.

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 20 June 2003 06:46 (twenty-two years ago)

This board really should be called "i hate music" , especially in regards to whoever started the "classic or dud" idea.
It's the best place on the net to visit if you really hate a band/musician, and want to find others who feel the same way.

― Michael Dubsky, Friday, 20 June 2003 06:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Leonard Cohen ... what's to hate? Great lyrics, great late-night vibe, the Chelsea Hotel, the self-mocking mythologization move on I'm Your Man .. he's tops.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Friday, 20 June 2003 07:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Heh heh. Apparently HSA's mum used to be friends with him (a long time ago). They called him Smelly Lenny because he never bathed. They took him down to Wiltshire to meet her dad and he got drunk and they had a row, and he sang dirty songs all the way on the train back to London, shocking the prim ladies in the carriage.

This is a true story.

― kate (kate), Friday, 20 June 2003 07:14 (twenty-two years ago)

i've got a leonard cohen story...

my beautiful sri lanken friend sent him samples of her poetry. he invited her to montreal for the weekend. i went along. very entertaining fellow! last time i heard my sri lanken friend and leonard were still corresponding.

― doom-e, Friday, 20 June 2003 07:16 (twenty-two years ago)

HATERZ U R ALL GAY

― Johnney B (Johnney B), Friday, 20 June 2003 08:03 (twenty-two years ago)

i love leonard. classic all the way

― Bob Shaw (Bob Shaw), Friday, 20 June 2003 08:08 (twenty-two years ago)

HATERZ?!!! haha - try again limey

― James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 20 June 2003 08:10 (twenty-two years ago)

I bought an album by him once and it was rubbish. Is this a typical Leonard Cohen experience?

― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Friday, 20 June 2003 09:18 (twenty-two years ago)

that was my LC experience, Tico. apparently it wasn't everyone's, since there are a fair number of LC-lovers here.

― Tad (llamasfur), Friday, 20 June 2003 09:21 (twenty-two years ago)

four words explain it all: McCabe and Mrs. Miller

― scott woods (s woods), Friday, 20 June 2003 09:34 (twenty-two years ago)

which is one of my absolute favorite movies. might even be my favorite. even though ive only seen it once (you can't buy it on dvd in the uk unfortunately), it was just too beautiful

― Bob Shaw (Bob Shaw), Friday, 20 June 2003 09:38 (twenty-two years ago)

I only have 'The Songs Of Leonard Cohen' but I love it to bits. What's this 'poetic' thing.

― N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 20 June 2003 10:19 (twenty-two years ago)

never tried to listen to the music due to knowing somebody who was into the poetry & tried to read it to me all the fuxx0ring time, gah.

I think "First We Take Manhattan" is a good title for a song, though, & apparently it's quite synthy. I keep forgetting to download it whenever I've got non-public interweb access.

― Ess Kay (esskay), Friday, 20 June 2003 10:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Poet! Songwriter! Young Canadian!

― kate (kate), Friday, 20 June 2003 10:32 (twenty-two years ago)

I care not a fig for his "poetry", I like his SONGS. Yeah Ess dload anything off "I'm Yr Man" or even "Various Postions", you prob won't like it but there's synths galore.

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 20 June 2003 10:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Hmm. Well I love Momus, Tom Waits and Gainsbourg so I should dig Leonard right?

Nah!

Can't quite explain. Is it those horrible gospel/soul backing vocals? Gainsbourg gets away with worse. Is it that croaking voice? Can't get enough of it from Tom.

No there ain't no rational explanation. One day I may suddenly flip and think Cohen is up there in that pantheon of great songwriting geniuses. I know it could happen. But right now ...

― phil jones (interstar), Friday, 20 June 2003 11:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Tad, why is the word poetic in quotes? Do you dispute LC's abilities as a poet? or is it your position that trying to put poetry in pop structures is somehow an effort to be dismissed out-of-hand? 'Cause Cohen's lyrics qualify as poetry, period, really there's no argument to be had against the proposition.

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Friday, 20 June 2003 11:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Leonard Cohen is completely defensible. In fact, he defends himself quite nicely.

"Famous Blue Raincoat"

― J (Jay), Friday, 20 June 2003 12:26 (twenty-two years ago)

I should maybe say I don't think he's a poor poet (or just "writer", I have "The Favourite Game" around here and I'll probably read it someday), at all, it's just I can see how that might put people off. I think he writes wonderful songs (including great lyrics, just about as often funny as gloomy, it's just his cliched image is the early miserable acoustic stuff), and sings them awfully well. Except maybe on "Recent Songs", which is a little prone to LONGNESS.

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 20 June 2003 12:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Stick your little pins in that voodoo doll... it's all been done before.

― TMFTML (TMFTML), Friday, 20 June 2003 12:34 (twenty-two years ago)

First we take Manhattan...then we take Berlin.

― Ally (mlescaut), Friday, 20 June 2003 15:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Always been there, one of those 'oh yeah I might check that out at some point I suppose' people for me. Heard a few songs, read a few things. I like Nick Cave's cover of "Tower of Song."

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 20 June 2003 15:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Somedays I would feel comfortable calling "The Partisan" my favorite song ever.

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Friday, 20 June 2003 15:45 (twenty-two years ago)

absolute classic. cohen haterz ought to have their headz examined. he's got a solid track record up through the 70s. plus, he's funny as hell. perfectly defensible. ween, on the other hand . . . ;-)

― jack cole (jackcole), Friday, 20 June 2003 16:06 (twenty-two years ago)

i love his first album immensely. i can understand why some wouldn't like the later gospel, synthy, overproduced, deep brooding voice stuff he's done, but his first album is a folk masterpiece. period.

― Felcher (Felcher), Friday, 20 June 2003 16:11 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm a Jewish Montrealer, so how can I really hate him? Though I don't own any albums I've certainly spent enough time enjoying his music; haters should check out Songs of Love and Hate (and the first ILXor musician to name his/her album Songs of Classic and Dud wins a prize from me!)

― s1utsky (slutsky), Friday, 20 June 2003 16:23 (twenty-two years ago)

what kind of a prize?

― Felcher (Felcher), Friday, 20 June 2003 16:25 (twenty-two years ago)

I actually prefer his later work to the earlier stuff; that weedy voice he used to have really puts me off. What was great about "Cohen Live" was you got some of those classic old songs sung by the cigarettes-and-bourbon-improved New Len.

― TMFTML (TMFTML), Friday, 20 June 2003 16:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Also doubters should check out Stranger Music, a comp of poetry/lyrics. "Song for Abraham Klein" is a terrific poem, especially if you like the work of more-obscure fellow Montrealer A.M. Klein.

― s1utsky (slutsky), Friday, 20 June 2003 16:42 (twenty-two years ago)

you people are insane, Cohen's first several albums are absolute pinnacles of class, on par with Nick Drake. He's made some questionable production decisions later on, but every album of his has at least one song to recommend it. Come on, Everybody Knows! Haven't you seen Exotica?

― anthony kyle monday (akmonday), Friday, 20 June 2003 16:44 (twenty-two years ago)

There'd be no Sisters of Mercy without Cohen

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Friday, 20 June 2003 17:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Between Cohen and Richler I have an image of Montreal gentlemen firmly formed in my mind.
http://schwinger.harvard.edu/~terning/Graphics/Canada/Richler.gif http://schwinger.harvard.edu/~terning/Graphics/Canada/Cohen.jpeg

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Friday, 20 June 2003 17:09 (twenty-two years ago)

because his first four albums are infallible, that's why. because i turn to those albums when i am in need of something that nothing else can provide. because i have probably listened to a few songs over a thousand times, and i'm not even beginning to tire of them.

― j fail (cenotaph), Friday, 20 June 2003 17:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Who the hell can not love Leonard Cohen? Even if you discard the lyrics, Cohen beats every other artist mentioned on the New Answers page just for tunes and singing. For fuck's sake, he even beats everyone there for LOOKS.

― Eyeball Kicks (Eyeball Kicks), Friday, 20 June 2003 18:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Somedays I would feel comfortable calling "The Partisan" my favorite song ever.

Holy crap, Yanc3y, about three days ago I was playing that very song and I turned to someone and said what you just said, pretty much word-for-word. Freaked me out reading that.

So, for that song and a few others (I know "Hallelujah" has been covered to death, but it's a great song; also "Avalanche") Cohen has earned his Classic rating.

― David A. (Davant), Friday, 20 June 2003 20:00 (twenty-two years ago)

A classic, and very easily defendable, thank you very much. Exquisite lyrics, a gorgeous, smoky, hundred-cigarettes-and-a-bottle-of-whisky voice, the balls and brains to go where few songwriters have adroitly gone before. Leonard Cohen is the bomb diggity. I hold this as dogma, and I refuse to take seriously any statements to the contrary.

― justin s., Saturday, 21 June 2003 00:56 (twenty-two years ago)

I like how your dogma includes the phrase "bomb diggity"

― s1utsky (slutsky), Saturday, 21 June 2003 00:58 (twenty-two years ago)

there are very few male singers with deep voices that i can stand. this is not one of them

― ron (ron), Saturday, 21 June 2003 04:47 (twenty-two years ago)

one month passes...

A classic, and very easily defendable, thank you very much.

Certainly. Not sure why I missed this thread previously, but I can't imagine anyone constructing a convincing case for the prosecution, and no-one has really done so here. Case dismissed. :)

Incidentally, does "Diamonds In The Mine" contain the most hilarious vocal delivery ever??? Haterz might be well advised to check that out before insisting they dislike his schtick.

― Nag! Nag! Nag! (Nag! Nag! Nag!), Saturday, 26 July 2003 08:01 (twenty-two years ago)

I like Leonard Cohen at the same time as agreeing with most of the haterz' points... really, his genius is only fully revealed when someone who CAN sing covers one of his songs. I mean... Jeff Buckley's 'Hallelujah' is obvious, but still one of the best covers ever; Thalia Zedek's also done a kick-ass version of 'Dance Me To The End Of Love'.

― The Lex (The Lex), Saturday, 26 July 2003 12:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Amazing that someone who must have listened to as many inconsequential records as Ned Raggett has, has never bothered to listen to a Leonard Cohen one.

Anyway, no he doesn't need defending. One of the towering greats of 20th Century music. Started off great and actually got better as he got older.

― Duchan (Enid Roach), Saturday, 26 July 2003 18:02 (twenty-two years ago)

I haven't really heard much Cohen, I found myself getting really bored and skipping through tracks.

Gainsbourg rocks though.

― David Allen, Saturday, 26 July 2003 18:19 (twenty-two years ago)

That someone would say Cohen is indefensable is astonishing to me & has so completely confused & disoriented me that I cannot be bothered to list the reasons why he's good, except to say that sometimes less is more, simplicity & incompetence are not synonymous, and complex does not equal good.

― John Bullabaugh (John Bullabaugh), Saturday, 26 July 2003 22:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Felcher: the later gospel, synthy, overproduced, deep brooding voice stuff he's done

Those four adjectiv[al phrases] just needed to be distilled from a longer post. Overproduced synthy gospel w/deep brooding voice. Ned, you SOFAD lovah, should you not "check that out at some point"?

[Note: I know about as little as Ned about LC, except I abhor those fucking Norwegian bestselling albums with translated LC songs (ok it's possibly only one, years ago), done in the best fucking possible taste you know, released by the fucking Christian Culture Workshop (direct translation). Oh yes, and my Mum bought I'm Your Man. Which I liked.]

― OleM (OleM), Saturday, 26 July 2003 23:24 (twenty-two years ago)

John Darn1elle's point about poetry "in inverted commas" is well made. LC's songs are songs. Is it a problem with lyrics per se? Do pop lyrics have to be throwaway? Maybe when you put inverted commas around the word poetry you're sneering at 60s/70s earnestness. For what its worth, I think he had enough inspired moments to be called 'classic'.

― Daniel (dancity), Sunday, 27 July 2003 08:05 (twenty-two years ago)

i like those lines "i will kill you if i must/i'll help you if i can" (& then later in the song "i will help you if i must/i'll kill you if i can"). he didn't entirely make that up himself tho did he. also "& jesus was a sailor/when he walked upon the water" cracks me up but i dunno if it's actually meant to be funny. never actually listen to him, but would 100000x rather do so than listen to nick cave or tom waits.

― duane, Sunday, 27 July 2003 08:21 (twenty-two years ago)

(yeah what a stellar commendation THAT is, sorry leonard)

― duane, Sunday, 27 July 2003 08:26 (twenty-two years ago)

ween are no good

― duane, Sunday, 27 July 2003 09:04 (twenty-two years ago)

at work someone put a leonard cohen CD (was the best of, i think) and I really enjoyed it. must buy a pile of his stuff soon.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Sunday, 27 July 2003 11:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Leonard Cohen needs no goddamn defense. So there.

― justin s., Sunday, 27 July 2003 22:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Individual attributes like vocal range are nearly irrelevent -- as are aspects like the percieved quality of his poetry. The end result is all that matters and i'd say that, at least for his early material, he displays something greater than the sum of his parts.

― christoff (christoff), Monday, 28 July 2003 16:52 (twenty-two years ago)

For one thing, as Jody suggested above, Cohen can be really really funny.

― amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 28 July 2003 18:05 (twenty-two years ago)

I did not notice until you walked away that you had the perfect ass,
forgive me for not falling in love with your face or conversation.

(I'm quoting this from memory, so it might not be 100 per cent accurate, but it does support the above post.)

― Bruce Urquhart (Bruce Urquhart), Monday, 28 July 2003 20:23 (twenty-two years ago)

"Everybody knows you've been faithful/Give or take a night or two/Everybody knows you've been discreet but there were so many people you just had to meet/without your clothes/Everybody knows"

― Jamie Conway (Jamie Conway), Monday, 28 July 2003 20:26 (twenty-two years ago)

one year passes...

This is an enjoyably volatile thread.

I was thinking today that late-period Leonard Cohen works best as music for imaginary movie opening or closing credits, rather than strung together on full albums. I always think of "First We Take Manhattan" and "Dance Me To The End Of Love" that way, and "A Thousand Kisses Deep" worked brilliantly at the end of that recent Neil Jordan movie.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Sunday, 5 June 2005 12:08 (twenty years ago)

I'd believe that. The recent records can be wearyingly turgid taken in one sitting.

I think J0hn's point prompted me to read several Cohen books recently. However, I hadn't realised that portions of the first few LP's (and probably more?) were indeed poetry in the most literal sense, ie. the very same pieces were published on paper years in advance!

― Nag! Nag! Nag! (Nag! Nag! Nag!), Sunday, 5 June 2005 12:41 (twenty years ago)

Also, Cohen songs lend themselves amazingly well to cover versions. I've listened to "I'm Your Fan" and "Tower of Song" infinitely more than to the actual Cohen albums I own. The lyrics and basic melodies are so fantastic, and the production often so bad/cheesy/inappropriate, that any version is an improvement (okay, except Don Henley. Ooh: "DEFEND THE INDEFENSIBLE: DON HENLEY" I'll start that one at some point).

― joseph cotten (joseph cotten), Sunday, 5 June 2005 12:42 (twenty years ago)

seven years pass...

i just wanna say that i was totally wrong 9 years ago about Leonard Cohen. maybe it's b/c i've gotten older, but i love his music nowadays.

― totaler Quatsch (Eisbaer), Tuesday, 1 January 2013 06:47 (twelve years ago)

― EveningStar (Sund4r), Tuesday, 1 January 2013 10:12 (twelve years ago)

ten years pass...

Careful searches through his posthumous papers indicate that Leonard tried to write title tracks for his early albums!!! Let's take a look:

"Here's some Songs of Leonard Cohen
You'll like 'em once you know 'em"

"Here's some Songs from a Room
In hopes you let me in your womb"

"Here's some Songs of Love and Hate
None of the former, of the latter there's eight"

"Need some New Skin for the Old Ceremony
Cos as the poet says, 'me so ho'ny'"

"Some Recent Songs
In hope I see some thongs"

These findings are going to upend the Leonard Cohen scholarship boat.

― Halfway there but for you, Sunday, 12 November 2023 14:25 (one year ago)

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