how many actual real "rock operas" are there?

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Justyn D asked:

Tommy
Quadrophenia

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 27 June 2003 10:34 (twenty-two years ago)

(if including something not announced as such, give good/wacky/provocative reasoning plz)

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 27 June 2003 10:35 (twenty-two years ago)

What about the Tim Rice/Lloyd Webber Rock Operas? Like Jesus Christ, Superstar and Godspell (Yeah, I know, not ALW, but still a rock opera) and stuff like that?

― kate (kate), Friday, 27 June 2003 10:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Does HAIR count?

― kate (kate), Friday, 27 June 2003 10:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Elton John's "Aida"?

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 27 June 2003 10:38 (twenty-two years ago)

yes they all count so name em all

(though i think at some point ALW's *STOP* being "rock operas" and become mere musicals: u&k that this borderline be mapped and discussed in exruciating detail clearly)

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 27 June 2003 10:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Joseph is a Rock Opera. Cats is not. Please explain the difference?

― kate (kate), Friday, 27 June 2003 10:40 (twenty-two years ago)

(JC Superstar = Tommy btw) (i mean, in what even slight way are they different?) (dave q-style TS to thread)

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 27 June 2003 10:40 (twenty-two years ago)

No, I know there IS a difference, I can feel it, but I cannot quantify/qualify it.

― kate (kate), Friday, 27 June 2003 10:41 (twenty-two years ago)

cats = an hommage to the early career of toyah = a rock opera

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 27 June 2003 10:42 (twenty-two years ago)

tommy has pinball obv

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 27 June 2003 10:42 (twenty-two years ago)

How is Quadrophenia a rock opera? I thought operas didn't have any non-musical narrative parts, which Quadrophenia has plenty of. In fact, the characters don't even sing the songs in Quadrophenia, so it's not even a musical. Isn't it just a movie with rock songs that are somewhat thematically related to the plot?

― NA. (Nick A.), Friday, 27 June 2003 10:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Is Starlight Express a rock opera, then?

― kate (kate), Friday, 27 June 2003 10:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Hedwig and the Angry Inch?

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Friday, 27 June 2003 10:46 (twenty-two years ago)

>How is Quadrophenia a rock opera?

Because Pete said so. But also the storytelling and the repeating musical motifs.

Some others

Pretty Things, S.F. Sorrow
Queensryche, Operation: Mindcrime
Genesis, Lamb Lies Down on Broadway
Frank Zappa, Joe's Garage

― Chris Clark (Chris Clark), Friday, 27 June 2003 10:48 (twenty-two years ago)

I think the Kinks' Arthur has been called a rock opera, though really it's just the soundtrack to a tv drama that never got aired, and it's severely lacking in what I would consider 'opera' type vocals (i.e. tuneful OTT emotional spazzing) (in German). The same goes for the less-good 70s stuff like Muswell Hillbillies.

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Friday, 27 June 2003 10:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Quadrophenia the LP (not Quadrophenia the movie) is a rock opera by defn : hence you get to make claims for what might be other "rock operas" despite appearances.

A "rock opera" need not have been performed on-stage.

I Am Kurious Oranj
[several kinks LPs obv]
which ius the sham 69 lp that paul morley compared to james joyce's ulysses? (the one with "hurry up harry" on it)

Starlight Opera = abt rollerblading = a rock opera

JC Superstar has miracle (= pinball by sense of smell)

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 27 June 2003 10:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Kiss meets the Phantom of the Park
Ayreon "The Final Experiment"

― Siegbran (eofor), Friday, 27 June 2003 10:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Zappa: Thingfish

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 27 June 2003 10:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Shit, I meant "The Elder"

― Siegbran (eofor), Friday, 27 June 2003 10:52 (twenty-two years ago)

the less-good 70s stuff like Muswell Hillbillies.

!!!!!!

(sorry, as you were)

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 27 June 2003 10:53 (twenty-two years ago)

John Lennon/Plastic Ono Band: what JC Superstar would have sounded like if it had been written by the main character.

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Friday, 27 June 2003 10:53 (twenty-two years ago)

toah dynamic - cops hate our love.

― doom-e, Friday, 27 June 2003 10:54 (twenty-two years ago)

haha i wd so heart JC Superstar if JC had slipped in the line "I don't believe in BEATLES!": ALW is such a fkn wuss

(i heart it anyway but i wd heart it MUCH MORE)

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 27 June 2003 10:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Let's Get It On
Here, My Dear

(Rock operas need not contain any actual "rock") (cf zappa haha)

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 27 June 2003 10:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Does the 'Zeuhl' or whatever it's called count?

― dave q, Friday, 27 June 2003 10:59 (twenty-two years ago)

'Melodie Nelson'?

― dave q, Friday, 27 June 2003 11:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Rush '2112'

― dave q, Friday, 27 June 2003 11:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Consequences by Godley and Creme
(plot: telepathic aliens conquey earth by means of a new musical instrument which allows you to play chords on the guitar w/o finger)
War of the Worlds by Jeff Lynne et al
everything evah by Alan Parson Project

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 27 June 2003 11:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Escalator over the Hill by Carla Bley

Dark Side of the Moon/Wish You Were Here/Animals*/The Wall

*This may not count: not all concept albs are rock operas surely?

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 27 June 2003 11:04 (twenty-two years ago)

'2112' has an aria and lyrics sung by different 'characters'!

― dave q, Friday, 27 June 2003 11:09 (twenty-two years ago)

2112 is totally a rock opera, but we are going to come up with ground rules for some of the others I suggested

Narrative apparent (or imposeable within the spirit implied by title/lyrics)? But what abt freeform or abstract rock operas?

Man who Fell to Earth
Ziggy Stardust
Aladdin Sane
Diamond Dogs
Low

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 27 June 2003 11:13 (twenty-two years ago)

"formal" continuity?

Once More, With Feeling (= the buffy musical)

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 27 June 2003 11:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Stretching the definition of "rock," Prince Paul's _A Prince Among Thieves_.

Stretching the length-definition of "opera," Mr. Quark's _Enjoy Nuoc-Mam with Mr. Quark_ (which is about 12 minutes long).

― Douglas (Douglas), Friday, 27 June 2003 11:20 (twenty-two years ago)

other 'JCS' rewrites:
Purple Rain: JC reincarnated as sexy pop star (and I can't think of any other similarities, HELP ME OUT HERE PEOPLE)
The Wall: JC = Syd, Judas Iscariot = Roger Waters
The Holy Bible: JC is a motormouthed self-mutilating history buff with stupid fans (Judas = S. Lamacq)

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Friday, 27 June 2003 11:22 (twenty-two years ago)

"A Quick One While He's Away" is only abt 12 mins long, so that's not a barrier Douglas

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 27 June 2003 11:23 (twenty-two years ago)

side two of Abbey Road (and maybe side one too) = opera without plot

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Friday, 27 June 2003 11:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Husker Du, "Zen Arcade"

― Chris Clark (Chris Clark), Friday, 27 June 2003 11:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, and "Lifehouse," "Psychoderelict" and "The Iron Giant," duh

― Chris Clark (Chris Clark), Friday, 27 June 2003 11:29 (twenty-two years ago)

TS: Judas Iscariot vs Judas Priest

― dave q, Friday, 27 June 2003 11:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Residents, "Eskimo"

― Chris Clark (Chris Clark), Friday, 27 June 2003 11:34 (twenty-two years ago)

So then what is a rock opera? Some of this stuff just seems like loose concept rock records, or no-concept rock records that don't happen to be in the regular 3-minute song mode.

I would say Tommy is a rock opera, but a lot of the prog stuff is just that: prog. Do long songs, or "suites" of songs = opera? That's a real question, not me being argumentative.

― dleone (dleone), Friday, 27 June 2003 11:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Eagles 'Desperado'

― dave q, Friday, 27 June 2003 11:35 (twenty-two years ago)

dominique:
a. i think by defn "rock opera" is not simply limited to "opera where the music happens to be rock" ("rock opera <=> rock" shd be analogous to "opera <=> concert-hall music", but the analogy is not simple, since most rock is songform and what alb is NOT a song-cycle, however inadvertently?)
b. i think there has to be conceptual continuity (which cd be musical-formal cf the buffy musical) BUT i also think there has to be SOME sort of unfolding of a drama in time (chronological narrative is the most unarguable)

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 27 June 2003 11:45 (twenty-two years ago)

(but note i am proposing things i want to be argued with and retained or cast out on a case-by-case basis: eg all the floyd albs? none? just moon/wall? make decisions and give reasons blah blah)

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 27 June 2003 11:50 (twenty-two years ago)

I think Double Fantasy (Lennon/Ono) fits, tho I don't have time to explain why just now as the Buffy musical is on TV here in three minutes hurrah!

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Friday, 27 June 2003 12:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Whatever you do, don't forget The Survival Of St.Joan by Smoke Rise.(about Joan of Arc) And The Revolt Of Emily Young by Foxx.(which is actually described as a "Rock Novella" on the cover.)

― Scott Seward, Friday, 27 June 2003 12:57 (twenty-two years ago)

I would say "His Land" too by Cliff Richard but it's more of a magical journey through the soul of a nation.Plus, it's not all that rocking.(although the Ralph Carmichael Orchestra's rendition of "Dry Bones" will get your foot tapping.)

― Scott Seward, Friday, 27 June 2003 13:01 (twenty-two years ago)

would Cursive's Domestica count? there's another punk rock one i'm forgetting the name of too. Meco's The Wizard Of Oz definitely counts. And I would make a case for Ulver's Themes From William Blake's The Marriage Of Heaven And Hell.

― scott seward, Friday, 27 June 2003 13:08 (twenty-two years ago)

mark s - I think Diamond Dogs was actually planned originally as a rock opera (even if the other DB albums fit a looser definition too).

Nobody's mentioned Rick Wakeman's 'Journey to the Centre of the Earth' yet.

― James Ball (James Ball), Friday, 27 June 2003 13:35 (twenty-two years ago)

the sham 69 opus was called 'the game' i think. my brother had a copy - i was very gutted never to have listened to/stole it when i found out about it's status as a modernist masterpeice.

michael bracewell talks about it quite a bit in 'england is mine'

― adam b (adam b), Friday, 27 June 2003 13:44 (twenty-two years ago)

and he also calls 'don't stand me down' the finegans wake of popular music or something

joyce-orama!

― adam b (adam b), Friday, 27 June 2003 13:57 (twenty-two years ago)

(x-post)

but the analogy is not simple, since most rock is songform and what alb is NOT a song-cycle, however inadvertently?)

I agree, hence why those Kinks albums from 65 onwards, I wouldn't call "rock opera", but just song-cycles. XTC too. Maybe also the Beatles.

b. i think there has to be conceptual continuity (which cd be musical-formal cf the buffy musical) BUT i also think there has to be SOME sort of unfolding of a drama in time (chronological narrative is the most unarguable)

Drama is the key, because I think just having a "story" doesn't cut it. And even "drama" isn't really enough, because there are plenty of classical works featuring vocals, a story and drama that aren't called "opera" (at least by people who care to make those kind of distinctions, such as my uptight professors and various history books).

Why do people not say "rock-musicals"? Is opera a cooler word than musical? (I think it is)

― dleone (dleone), Friday, 27 June 2003 14:04 (twenty-two years ago)

>Is opera a cooler word than musical?

My wildly uneducated opinion is that operas are self-contained dramas within the lyrics of their songs (cf Tommy and Quadrophenia the albums), whereas musicals generally include non-musical dialogue between the songs (cf Tommy the Broadway Play and Quadrophenia the Movie). Also, songs in musicals tend to be more chrome than rubber on the road, whereas songs in operas move the action forward...if you remove one, the storyline is interrupted.

― Chris Clark (Chris Clark), Friday, 27 June 2003 14:17 (twenty-two years ago)

The obvious difference - in 'musicals', people start singing in situations where in reality it would be ridiculous, whereas in 'operas' the whole SITUATION is ridiculous!

― dave q, Friday, 27 June 2003 14:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Neil Young: Greendale. Just saw it -- pure Rock Opera, although he presents it as a "musical novel". But see, when he sings the character's words, they mouth them. 'Cause they're all onstage. With Neil. And sets, props, you know... like an opera.

― Hurlothrumbo (hurlothrumbo), Friday, 27 June 2003 14:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Drive By Truckers - Southern Rock Opera

― mookieproof (mookieproof), Friday, 27 June 2003 14:46 (twenty-two years ago)

I think Prince Among Thieves by Prince Paul actually has one of the most coherant, understandable plotlines of any rock (rap) opera, and nearly every song seems to have a direct correlation to the plot...

Also, the Fat Boys did a rapera that I can't remember....Fab Five Freddy to thread!

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 27 June 2003 15:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Does Phantom of the Rapra count by Bushwick Bill a.k.a. Dr. Wolfgang Von Bushwickin The Barbarian Mother Funky Stay High Dollar Billstir?

― scott seward, Friday, 27 June 2003 15:18 (twenty-two years ago)

i always assumed the downward spiral by NIN was a rock opera. there's really no other excuse for that much melodrama.

― Felcher (Felcher), Friday, 27 June 2003 15:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Armand Schaubroeck Steals - A Lot of People Would Like to See Armand Schaubroeck...DEAD

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Friday, 27 June 2003 16:15 (twenty-two years ago)

I can't believe no one has mentioned Savatage's classic opus "Streets: A Rock Opera", which I recall with great fondness, as it was sent to me accidentally by Columbia House long ago.

― ham on rye (ham on rye), Friday, 27 June 2003 16:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Racebannon "Satan's Kickin Yr Dick In".... well, more like a screenplay slathered over really loud rock music. But maybe it barely qualifies.

― donut bitch (donut), Friday, 27 June 2003 17:53 (twenty-two years ago)

I can't wait til there's a black metal version of John Adam's "Nixon In China"

― donut bitch (donut), Friday, 27 June 2003 17:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Possibly some Elephant 6 stuff- both OTC albums. Also Of Montreal.

― Colin from Albany, Friday, 27 June 2003 21:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Actually, I guess the E6 stuff is more concept album-ish the more I think about it.

― Colin from Albany, Friday, 27 June 2003 21:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Has anyone mentioned Randy Newman's 'Faust'?

If 'Here, My Dear' and 'Let's Get It On' are rock operas - not saying they're not - then so is 'Hustler's Convention' by Lightnin' Rod, and what abt 'Superfly' by Curtis Mayfield (can movie S/Ts also be rock operas? Do rock operas always need to have words/lyrics?)

― Andrew L (Andrew L), Friday, 27 June 2003 21:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Hunting of the Snark OST (1986, various artists)

― t\'\'t (t\'\'t), Friday, 27 June 2003 22:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Lifter Puller, Fiestas + Fiascos, though really the entire LP ouvre counts as one thing here

― M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 27 June 2003 22:47 (twenty-two years ago)

the transfused, and that's "actual real" to the best of my knowledge ;-)

― ron (ron), Friday, 27 June 2003 23:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Not sure if these count:

Aphrodite's Child - 666
or Magma - MDK

― Michael Dubsky, Saturday, 28 June 2003 00:15 (twenty-two years ago)

five months pass...

Well, Pink Floyd's "The Wall" gets pretty operatic near the end!!!!!

― Old Fart!!! (oldfart_sd), Tuesday, 23 December 2003 10:16 (twenty-one years ago)

does 'breaking glass' count? aside from being rubbish, that is...

― zappi (joni), Tuesday, 23 December 2003 10:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Marilyn Manson's "Antichrist Superstar"

― JP Almeida (JP Almeida), Tuesday, 23 December 2003 10:46 (twenty-one years ago)

How about anything by Associates or Sparks? I mean, certainly, nobody has ever come closer to operatic vocal style than Msrs Mael and McKenzie

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 24 December 2003 01:59 (twenty-one years ago)

The above few posts are all nonsense - it has to be on a STAGE. With SINGING! And a PROPER PLOT. Not just singers who sound like they might be in a really crap village society Gilbert and Sullivan production.

Surely since this thread was started, we've been given We Will Rock You and Cliff The Musical. Although I'm not sure these count. To be a real rock opera, surely there needs to be rock from start to finish?

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 24 December 2003 02:21 (twenty-one years ago)

Donna Summer - Once Upon a Time

― Sean (Sean), Wednesday, 24 December 2003 02:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots-I think there must be a definable narative. Meet A, A then B, B then C. A gets laid. The End.

― Speedy Gonzalas (Speedy Gonzalas), Wednesday, 24 December 2003 03:35 (twenty-one years ago)

It hasn't been released yet, but in 1995 Rivers Cuomo of Weezer penned a rock opera set in outer space. It's called Songs From the Black Hole.

Parts of the rock opera have been leaked. A demo of the opening theme can be found here: Blast Off!

― MerkinMuffley (MerkinMuffley), Wednesday, 24 December 2003 04:08 (twenty-one years ago)

hm... that link doesn't work.

this one does: Blast Off!

― MerkinMuffley (MerkinMuffley), Wednesday, 24 December 2003 04:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Kinks "Preservation Act", surely.

― The Yellow Kid, Wednesday, 24 December 2003 07:30 (twenty-one years ago)

The Viva Satellite catalog to thread (opera gone twee).

― j.lu (j.lu), Wednesday, 24 December 2003 14:20 (twenty-one years ago)

One.

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Wednesday, 24 December 2003 14:23 (twenty-one years ago)

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