Ryan Pitchfork crawls out of his indie cave

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I'm only starting this thread because it was inevitable. On today's Pitchfork, Ryan Schreiber admits that a lot of chart-pop is quite good and then suggests an "80-minute mix of some of the best and/or most innovative pop hits of the past three years" (with commentary!). You can be cynical about the way he uses indie touchstones to validate the pop (comparing a Destiny's Child tune to an "Oval-processed Brian Wilson melody") but in general, I think it bodes well for the site. (Apparently, more singles reviews are ahead.)

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 4 August 2003 14:58 (twenty-two years ago)

that new layout is hideous, they should've stuck with the blue.

― Felcher (Felcher), Monday, 4 August 2003 15:02 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.zonezero.com/exposiciones/fotografos/thomas/Tub_and_Toaster_small.jpeg

― Jon Williams (ex machina), Monday, 4 August 2003 15:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Incidentally, former pop music webzine Freaky Trigger is relaunching this week. It's all Blakes 7 and squirrel recipes now, mind.

― Tom (Groke), Monday, 4 August 2003 15:05 (twenty-two years ago)

haha, ILM was quasi referenced on pitchfork!
"The Mountain Goats' John Darnielle recently came up with 100 reasons why this song is "so damned great" for his literary journal, Last Plane to Jakarta."
it almost seems like ryan's been lurking here for a while trying to figure out how he can please this board.

― Felcher (Felcher), Monday, 4 August 2003 15:13 (twenty-two years ago)

ryan DOES lurk here.

i have officially found something even stupdier than the last stupidest thing i found on pfork:

Commercial pop, hip-hop, electroclash, mash-ups, dancepunk-- it seems whole genres are increasingly gearing themselves more towards producing great singles than great albums.

um...uh...um....help?...

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 4 August 2003 15:16 (twenty-two years ago)

As a proof-that-pop-is-great mix, this is very good by the way. All killer no filler. Leans heavily on the 'check out the production on THIS' argument of course, but that's how I made my converts too and it generally works.

― Tom (Groke), Monday, 4 August 2003 15:16 (twenty-two years ago)

a pinball-random vocal more abstract than the last New Pornographers album seemed on first listen. Like an Oval-processed Brian Wilson melody belted out by the sweetest dew-voiced quartet.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 4 August 2003 15:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Check you email strongo!

― Tom (Groke), Monday, 4 August 2003 15:21 (twenty-two years ago)

STRONGO ME CHECK WRITING MACHINE

― (sorry) (nabisco), Monday, 4 August 2003 15:27 (twenty-two years ago)

mailed you back, tom.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 4 August 2003 15:29 (twenty-two years ago)

You guys talking behind our backs?

― Mark (MarkR), Monday, 4 August 2003 15:30 (twenty-two years ago)

tom is telling me where he's registered for the wedding.

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 4 August 2003 15:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes of me and Ryan. Sorry Isabel but this guy's pop conversion has me all a-flutter!

― Tom (Groke), Monday, 4 August 2003 15:33 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm not flying out there now. Oh yeah, so is Al your best man? Should I bug him?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 4 August 2003 15:35 (twenty-two years ago)

No he's not. Alex T and John M are jointly.

― Tom (Groke), Monday, 4 August 2003 15:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Congradulations Tom -- who is DJing the reception?

― Mark (MarkR), Monday, 4 August 2003 15:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Lamacq

― nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 4 August 2003 15:39 (twenty-two years ago)

There's an exclusive Carter vs Sigur Ros "mash-up" being readied as we speak.

― Tom (Groke), Monday, 4 August 2003 15:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Shit, it took long enough for this thread to start!

― David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 4 August 2003 15:48 (twenty-two years ago)

And if the past is anything to judge by, it'll extend for a couple days as the actual singles reviews start coming up. (I'm really looking forward to seeing how it goes: I'm pretty sure Scott Plagenhoef will be contributing a lot of stuff, and I think he and I have pretty similar tastes in the pop and dance-pop arenas.)

― nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 4 August 2003 15:51 (twenty-two years ago)

I tried to argue Rock Your Body over Cry Me a River, but he wouldn't have it (his point being that RYB was just JT doing MJ, which it is - but it's good MJ).

― dleone (dleone), Monday, 4 August 2003 15:53 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm hoping to get a proper roasting from all arenas re: my contributions - alas, Ryan already killed my best shot @ getting skewered, but there is still hope.

― David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 4 August 2003 15:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Whereas CMAR is just JT doing indie ;)

― Tom (Groke), Monday, 4 August 2003 15:54 (twenty-two years ago)

It's a total Gang of Four rip-off, duh.

― David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 4 August 2003 15:56 (twenty-two years ago)

So Dominique, he took suggestions for that list from the staff?

("Cry Me a River" was picked for the same reason Alex Ross used it in that New Yorker article = "Look at everything's that going on!")

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 4 August 2003 15:56 (twenty-two years ago)

"You don't have to say what you did / I already know / I heard it from - HIM!" - imagine that spat out in Gedge guttural and my point is surely proved!

― Tom (Groke), Monday, 4 August 2003 15:57 (twenty-two years ago)

No, jaymc, this was after I saw it this morning. Of course, I immediately IM'd to make my case -- 6:30 am is not too late to change!

― dleone (dleone), Monday, 4 August 2003 15:59 (twenty-two years ago)

I think this whole artical was a cynical and studied exercise in bandwagon jumping after the bandwagon left town.

― Larcole (Nicole), Monday, 4 August 2003 16:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Artical = article, jeez...

― Larcole (Nicole), Monday, 4 August 2003 16:14 (twenty-two years ago)

It's very "ooh, look at me, I like POP!", isn't it? Do they expect a gold star for that? The indie/pop distinction is laid on a bit too thick, too.

That said, it's a good compilation apart from the strange and highly crap Jay-Z/Cam'ron/R Kelly bit in the middle. Without Me is so not Eminem's best, though.

― The Lex (The Lex), Monday, 4 August 2003 16:19 (twenty-two years ago)

All these songs are great!

― Sonny A. (Keiko), Monday, 4 August 2003 16:22 (twenty-two years ago)

But I thought "Cross the Border" was about oral sex ??

― Sonny A. (Keiko), Monday, 4 August 2003 16:23 (twenty-two years ago)

it is a masterful multiple metaphor

or ryan has just never gotten a blowjob

or bought drugs

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 4 August 2003 16:25 (twenty-two years ago)

I think this whole artical was a cynical and studied exercise in bandwagon jumping after the bandwagon left town.

Yeah, he's like the "item!" guy/yesterday's news entertainment reporter on the Onion.

Also, the new pitchfork site is unreadable.

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Monday, 4 August 2003 16:28 (twenty-two years ago)

actually it IS a masterful multiple metaphor, but still

i would have thought "give me head while i drive, bitch, i likes ta swerve" would be a pretty good diagram, really

― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 4 August 2003 16:28 (twenty-two years ago)

strongo you sound a bit like a vice contributor a few posts back there

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Monday, 4 August 2003 16:30 (twenty-two years ago)

you skeptics - Ryan is offering an olive branch to ILM and you're shooting him down!

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Monday, 4 August 2003 16:30 (twenty-two years ago)

I wouldn't be so cynical about it. The idea that pop can be as good as indie IS quite novel for a lot of Pitchfork's readership -- including me, who was pretty indie-centric for many years (until just a few months ago, the only radio I listened to was college stations and NPR). If ILM hadn't opened my ears already, this article might've.

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 4 August 2003 16:31 (twenty-two years ago)

actually, i don't mean that strongo

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Monday, 4 August 2003 16:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Besides the tone of the thing, my main lament about this feature (which, no, wasn't a staff thing -- I didn't see this until today, either) is that a cdr-80 that reflected the range of music that will covered in the section may have been a more helpful introduction. (I suppose writing about pop is something ryan felt needed 'explaining' or 'defending' to his core audience.)

fwiw, ideally the section will cover pop, chart hip-hop (hell, and that other kind, too ;) ), and R&B, as well as indie, dancehall, dancefloor-oriented genres, ‘home listening’ electronic music, new leaked tracks from established artists, discopunk, mashups, great songs on weak or average albums, highlights from compilations (and maybe reissues?), interesting b-sides and remixes – anything that is best explored by pfm as an individual song rather than in the context of an album (and was therefore ignored by the site in the past). (Hopefuly, the entire staff will be contributing.)

― scott pl. (scott pl.), Monday, 4 August 2003 16:32 (twenty-two years ago)

^ at least this is my understanding of what the section will be like -- I can't rightly speak for the editorial staff or the site as a whole.

― scott pl. (scott pl.), Monday, 4 August 2003 16:33 (twenty-two years ago)

'Cry Me A River' being more nuanced than Endtroducing tracks is surely a no-brainer. Now, being more nuanced than Fantasma and Point tracks OTOH...

― Barima (Barima), Monday, 4 August 2003 16:45 (twenty-two years ago)

The entire staff will be contributing, and it won't just be Top 40 - though unlike the now-defunct Repeat column, it'll focus on new music.

The mockups I've seen of the real section look exciting - it'll be more diverse and more interesting than the essay + list format of this first piece.

― Chris Dahlen (Chris Dahlen), Monday, 4 August 2003 16:54 (twenty-two years ago)

jaymc, I think it's kinda lame that such an idea has to be novel in the first place. I also say that because a friend clogged up my e-mail a few months ago whining about my dismissal of his Jazzanova etc. sensibilities in favour of pop (his pet peeves-Lemon Jelly, Shibuya-kei, Timba/Neptunes, chartpop. Dork).

― Barima (Barima), Monday, 4 August 2003 16:54 (twenty-two years ago)

new pitchfork format!
more banners = more better???

― ddb, Monday, 4 August 2003 17:03 (twenty-two years ago)

more banners, even worse music! WIN! WIN!

― jack cole (jackcole), Monday, 4 August 2003 17:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Barima, I agree it's lame. But unfortunately, that's how a lot of people use music, especially in indie circles: "I like this, therefore I CAN'T like that." When I started listening to indie rock in high school, I definitely liked the "reject the mainstream" aspect of it. Years later, I no longer felt the need to assert my identity in quite the same way, but my kneejerk dismissal of most pop radio still lingered.

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 4 August 2003 17:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Funnyword descriptions of pop songs with funny noises---- buried under an avalanche of INDIE ROCK FENNESZ MANITOBA ENON OBSCURE POSTPUNK. How is it different from ILM? Because they admit that they feel way more comfortable with Mogwai than they do with Mystikal?

― d k (d k), Monday, 4 August 2003 17:24 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think there was anything "obvious" about including Outkast. Outkast suck. They should have skipped that and put in Beyonce's solo single—I love the horns on the chorus more than anything else on MTV right now.

― Phil Freeman (Phil Freeman), Monday, 4 August 2003 18:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Skipping 178 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

I just applied to Ryan to write for Pitchfork! Wish me luck!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 19:43 (twenty-two years ago)

If you get in a celebration of the new Limp Bizkit album when it comes out as a lead story in Pitchfork, I will laugh with great joy.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 19:43 (twenty-two years ago)

If indie rock has somehow come around to embracing these values, I don't know that that makes them "indie values".

I don't think these are "indie" values, but I think the "indie" audience (like today's mailbag writers, in their cute cro-mag way) treats as legitimate any music that took craftsmanship and honest intent, as opposed to artists that they perceive as having been jammed down our throats through fashion, marketing, and the mainstream media (like the American Idol winners or Mandy Moore, or Justin Timberlake, until it turned out that he had a real producer).

(Or if DJ Shadow and Oval are indie touchstones as much as Sebadoh or Galaxie 500 can we even still talk about a coherent set of indie aesthetic values?)

That's huge, but I want to point out that very few people only listen to indie rock, at least in the 'Fork's audience. And anyway, it's hard to describe Top 40 hits in terms of Pavement. "Remember how 'Cut Your Hair' just seemed to cry out for rapping? Well, this single is NOTHING BUT rapping!"

― Chris Dahlen (Chris Dahlen), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 19:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Having not heard that album, and worried how the absence of Wes Borland will affect their music, I don't want people to assume I'll enjoy PANTY SNIFFER.

That said I will buy it the day it comes out.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 19:46 (twenty-two years ago)

I think we are ALL worried about how the absence of Wes Borland is going to affect their music, Anthony.

― scott seward, Tuesday, 5 August 2003 19:55 (twenty-two years ago)

I stay up all noon thinking about it.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 19:56 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, but the lyrics should remain dope. Durst is Durst for better or worst.

BAM! I love it when a thread gets derailed by someone (who's usually not me) mentioning Limp Bizkit. Makes me feel like a big shot.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 19:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Some stereotypes you don't want to be saddled with. ;-)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 20:18 (twenty-two years ago)

ok this thread is too long for me to get through right now but c'mon, the very idea of trying to broadly summarize the past 3 years of hits in an 80-minute mix is absurd. nice try, though

― Al (sitcom), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 21:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Al has a point. I tried to sum up the 80s on 2 CD's and failed.
And that was 2 CD's of mp3s....

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 21:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Chris: If anything, I was defending Ryan and saying that his approach doesn't seem as indie-centric, at least in the narrow, traditional sense, as it's being made out to be.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Tuesday, 5 August 2003 23:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Also, Fred Durst is running the company!

― dave q, Wednesday, 6 August 2003 00:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Sundar is more OTM than everyone else combined and squared.

― J (Jay), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 00:23 (twenty-two years ago)

For certain!

― Kris (aqueduct), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 00:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Sundar, I'm sorry - didn't mean to seem argumentative. I found your points really interesting.

― Chris Dahlen (Chris Dahlen), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 00:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Sunday, I guess in particular, as someone who writes for Pitchfork, I find what you're talking about - the disappearance of "a coherent set of indie aesthetic values" - to be practically the most important thing going on with our audience.

It's not something that's often discussed, but it's a clear trend in the broadening of what people are listening to. Ryan's article may have addressed a seemingly narrow audience, but he's basically focusing on people who will listen to everything from electronica to underground hip-hop - but who have reservations about certain kinds of music: Top 40, which he's addressing here, and mainstream country being probably the most obvious, and both of them having strong corporate connotations.

Anyway, that's why I responded so strongly, but in an all-over-the-map kinda way. Again, sorry about the misunderstanding.

― Chris Dahlen (Chris Dahlen), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 00:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Aw shit and I even spelled your name wrong ...

― Chris Dahlen (Chris Dahlen), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 00:44 (twenty-two years ago)

the fact that he has to qualify a list like that with words like "innovative" is proof enough that he's frontin'. also, he misidentifies the producer of "Hey Ma" (which is one of the greatest songs ever, and it was DR Period, not Blaze, dammit).

― Al (sitcom), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 00:56 (twenty-two years ago)

All I meant when I brought up the great-production meme is that for whatever reason (more indie, less indie, I don't know) it WORKS usually as the best way to get people who are suspicious of Top 40 pop to listen closer or at least less dismissively to it. By which I mean it works better than the other obvious approaches of "This hit song affects me emotionally" (even if it does) and "Listen to the great tune dammit" (which invites a so-what).

In my insatiable curiosity I looked at the PFM bulletin board for the first time in aeons and the thread I found on this (a lot shorter than ours, wouldn't you know) seemed to flick between "Yes OK Ryan WE KNOW" and "B-b-b-but [insert song here] is shit!", so maybe a more successful way of doing it would have been to pick lots of obscuro pop and chart rap, if such a thing were possible.

― Tom (Groke), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 07:01 (twenty-two years ago)

tom's right - corny indie fuxx tend to place the artist before the art so much that you have to give them an artist to latch onto before they can allow themselves to enjoy the art

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 08:06 (twenty-two years ago)

people who will listen to everything from electronica to underground hip-hop

That's not exactly a broad church, is it?

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 08:14 (twenty-two years ago)

The music mentioned, not the people who listen to it, obv.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 08:15 (twenty-two years ago)

James - that might be it yeah, I don't really know, with some people it is. I'm just saying that whether you're right or whether Sundar's right the efficacy of the method is proven (by NYLPM as much as anything).

― Tom (Groke), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 08:23 (twenty-two years ago)

from a Justin Timberlake interview with....wait for it...Jim Derogatis -

"Q. You're a Southern boy like Elvis. I've been reading a new biography of

his manager, Colonel Tom Parker, and it's striking how little control Presley had of his own career. I've always wanted to ask you: How much control do you really have over what you're able to do artistically? It seems as if you have a lot more now than you had with 'N Sync. I mean, you're recording with the Black Eyed Peas, you're popping up onstage with the Flaming Lips ...

A. Honestly, I don't think I have control issues; I just do what I enjoy doing. Like that thing with the Flaming Lips: Wayne from the Lips approached me and said, "Hey, do you wanna come play bass with us?" And I was like, "Sure!" I sat there that night and I actually learned the bass part. Or rather, there wasn't a bass part in the song, so I wrote one. It was a simple thing to do. But I don't think I have control issues.

There's always so much emphasis on how much control artists have. Even with these new artists who've come up, like Avril Lavigne--I don't want to seem like I'm talking about people, but from what I've seen, it's like, "Well, is this real?" There's always that question. But all I can do is just do what I do, and people can judge it any way that they want.

It was so funny to me because on one hand, when I read the reviews of "Justified," they were like, "Wow, the Neptunes have never sounded like this. Timbaland has never sounded like this." Then, when the actual statements come forward when they want to review what Justin Timberlake's record was about, it's, "Well, he had the Neptunes and he had Timbaland pulling all the strings." Aren't these the same people who just said that these producers never sounded this good, or they never sounded like this before? I went through this whole thing of, like, "Well, didn't I have something to do with that? Doesn't me contributing the lyrics and the melodies have something to do with that?"

Finally, I was just like, "Screw it! People can say whatever they want to say." I don't make these records for the critics. I make them for people who want to listen to them, and I make them for myself."

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 08:30 (twenty-two years ago)

...and if anyone else likes it, it's a bonus!

(One of the ironies of 'pop vs indie' is that pop musicians and indie musicians give exactly the same interview, minus the bits about celebrity parties/ratty tour van hijinks)

― Tom (Groke), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 08:33 (twenty-two years ago)

even the auteur theory was just (well maybe not "just") getting people to admit previously dismissed pop trash films were good by convincing them hawks/hitchcock/fuller/whoevah was an artist - convince someone that's someone's an artist and you're more than halfway towards convincing them that what they make is art.

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 08:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Too right, Justin. And James. And also Tom.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 08:35 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, maybe it's just finally hearing 'senorita', but I'm really warming up to timberlake as an, ahem, artist.

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 08:37 (twenty-two years ago)

yall will love this - "I had no expectations of what the crowd was gonna be, but I was really anxious to see what the demographic was gonna be. I've noticed here in the U.K.--and they're the most brutal market I think I've ever seen; your song is No. 1 one week and the next it's No. 52--what I've noticed is that the primary age range is, like, 23 to 27. And it's usually couples. It's like a gaggle of girlfriends, or I saw four or five guys that came together, and they were my age. I think when the crowd's like that, it changes the whole vibe of the show. It changes the aesthetic, because you're in the company of people your age."

the rest of it's here.

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 08:41 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.fistoffun.net/book/16.jpg

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 10:07 (twenty-two years ago)

dom surely you're over that one

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 10:20 (twenty-two years ago)

corny indie fuxx tend to place the artist before the art so much that you have to give them an artist to latch onto before they can allow themselves to enjoy the art

-- nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (littlejohnnyjewe...), August 6th, 2003 5:06 AM. (James Blount)

Oh yeah, because only corny indie fuxx do that . . . that never happens on ILM.

― J (Jay), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 10:30 (twenty-two years ago)

The "aaaaaahhh" parts are great though!

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 10:48 (twenty-two years ago)

worst thread ever

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 11:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh yeah, because only corny indie fuxx do that . . . that never happens on ILM.

I think I see a theory!

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 11:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Tom made a really good point back there about how pop musicians and indie musicians give the same interviews. It's interesting that the ideals pop musicians seemingly hold regarding music would be seen as negative by the "intelligent" pop fan. Any CD:UK interview will concentrate purely on the music, how the artist has had "some song-writing input", how the artist is taking a more alternative route to singing/performing, how the artist really respects Oasis for "what they're doing maaan". Its a thousand ILM provoking cliches in one, yet the pop artist is still percieved as a maverick, zesty, pop kid. Not that many would give a fuck about a pop artists attitude to music (does anyone care that Pharrel's fav group is Rush or that a scary amount of heavy rap stars and producers are massive Phil Collins fans) but i suspect a fan of indie would feel "let down" or "betrayed" by his hero if he found out that its favourite singer was Justin Timberlake. When i watched the Flaming Lips at this festival doing "Can't Get You Out Of My Head" the crowds first reaction was "what the fuck?!" the second was "hahaha they're doing that crappy Kylie song off the charts hahahaha crazy guys! it's okay for us to dance and sing along to this inferior indie version because its an indie version! hahahah! yes!". And then you get the guy from Flaming Lips saying "Happy Birthday is the greatest pop song ever, dontchathink?" and the average Flaming Lips fan is like "man, i thought his favourite song would be like, "God Only Knows", i feel so betrayed, Kings Of Leon are my new favourite band they are real". The pop artist is celebrated over the indie artist but in reality they're both banal and vapid and are desperate to assert their rrrrrealness and authenticity/pink plastic and disposable-ness before a crowd of bear baiting indie fans/pop fans.

― sean g, Wednesday, 6 August 2003 11:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Authentic just means knowing what you're doing.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 12:04 (twenty-two years ago)

It's got piss-all to do with how you do it.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 12:04 (twenty-two years ago)

"worst thread ever"

Tsk it can't possibly be! I have that Lee & Herring book. Somewhere.

― DJ Mencap (DJ Mencap), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 12:08 (twenty-two years ago)

I think I see a theory!

Really? I thought I was just being snarky.

― J (Jay), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 16:17 (twenty-two years ago)

of course ilm does it - this place is at least 80% corny indie fuxx now!

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 17:59 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm sorry that you hate yourself so much, jb.

― J (Jay), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 18:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Eighty percent may be a conservative estimate.

― Larcole (Nicole), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 18:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Clearly I'm burned.

― J (Jay), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 18:17 (twenty-two years ago)

"now"

― gygax! (gygax!), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 18:38 (twenty-two years ago)

haha!

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 18:42 (twenty-two years ago)

she was a struggling waitress in new york, but 3 thousand miles away she was the daughter they never knew

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 6 August 2003 19:59 (twenty-two years ago)

The pop artist is celebrated over the indie artist but in reality they're both banal and vapid and are desperate to assert their rrrrrealness and authenticity/pink plastic and disposable-ness before a crowd of bear baiting indie fans/pop fans.

C'mon. Give Benny a smile duder. Life's nothing but a bowl of cherries, innuit?

― ben welsh (benwelsh), Thursday, 7 August 2003 05:22 (twenty-two years ago)

from this sf guardian article (collection of articles about music wirting, actually):

http://www.sfbg.com/noise/2003-08/x_punctum.html

there is some OTM pitchfork mention. george chen states re: pf that:

"Most of the writing smacks of youth and its attendant failure to reference anything beyond its scope. Its cynicism feels unearned."

admittedly i have not read all posts here, but thought this line might have some relevance to the general debate. i guess that might be how i feel when reading an outlandish statement / opinion in pf and think "you can't say that!" not that a fact or opinion isn't valid but just that it's being used to either grab attention or really push an absurd idea too far to make a point. the opposite of this for me might be when reading the voice or something i actually have to sit down and parse out a backhanded sentence. at least the voice (less the new word limit laws) maybe expects a bit more mind muscle from its readers (unless you are amy phillips). in chen's terms pf seems like a less mature viewpoint, or at least one that comes off as over-eager and amateur. apologies if this has been touched on before...

― marcg (marcg), Thursday, 7 August 2003 21:04 (twenty-two years ago)

ugh, that last line

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Thursday, 7 August 2003 21:08 (twenty-two years ago)

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