Shameless Self Promotion - Lollies tour

we're very friendly.

Dirty Vicar, I'd love to go to Ireland. Every time our bassist visits, she says that she is beset upon by lovely flirtacious Irish boys intent on pulling her. Sounds like my idea of heaven, actually...

A board which allows self-promotion in the form of spam about one's rock tour should also allow satire on the spam. A world with spam but no satire is a sad one.

Besides if you're jealous about not getting to have your own self-promotion, well, you are still the leader in most threads about you.

But if Kate and Tom have decided that announcements are to be considered discussions, then let us discuss them. And that means people being snide, childish, unctuous, the whole human gamut. I wouldn't expect moderators to censor responses to my own announcements. I hope it isn't because Kate's a girl, and therefore considered somehow incapable of accepting criticism, because that's the worst sort of sexist double standard. Raise boys and girls the same!

* Kate starts it in a feisty manner, as if she's already expecting trouble: 'Shameless self-promotion... Tom's told me it's okay, so if you have a problem...'

* Kate's self-description seems unnecessarily cruel, but that's her business, I guess.

* It's an advert disguised as an ILM meet-up. The meet-ups are many-to- many events, this is just a chance to meet Kate and Paul.

* The sub-moderator sounds like a pompous school-teacher.'Grow up, Denis!' It's like, 'Come to the blackboard Denis, hold out your hand'. Meanwhile Kate is playing teacher's pet, with her 'Tom said it's okay...'

* The main issue: if Kate's rights in UK law are not infringed by the post, I find it reactionary to censor it. ILM may have a duty to defend the feelings of a poster, but it also has a responsibility to inform and entertain a wide spectrum of readers. By censoring this post (which looked like the most entertaining thing on the thread), moderators are protecting the right to commercial activity on ILM (not its primary function) but failing to protect a right to comment (which is what ILM is all about).

I'm sorry, but that to me is a serious issue.

Gore Vidal has just published a book of his correspondence with Oklahoma bomber Timothy McVeigh. In it he says the FBI fabricated evidence to get a conviction. He accuses the US media of wanting a one- dimensional picture of McVeigh as purely evil, rather than a soldier or someone politically motivated. Vidal says he was cut off in TV interviews every time he raised the issue of Waco. Sometimes producers literally switched off the mike when the word Waco came up.

No doubt those TV producers thought any linkage of Oklahoma with Waco was 'destructive' too. So are you telling me you're on the side of the men with their fingers on the mike switches, or are you on the side of Vidal?

Anyway, good luck with the tour Kate. Expect full Momus tour dates, with extremely long, boring and complicated directions to Japanese cafes nobody reading can visit on ILM very soon.

This bring us a couple of questions and wrinkles.

1) First Harrasment is illegal in the uk.
2) We want this to remain civil. If Kate feels hurt or threatened by
a poster i think it has exceded the virutes of parody
3) By introducing Gore Vidal and Timothy McVeigh you jumped a level.
It became a peice of rheotic rather then a specfic issue.
4) The post was phrased a little syncophantically IMO.
5) Do we when attacked by a troll circle the wagons. ( clichè i know) If we do we become cliqueish. It becomes tables in the lunchroom.

I know this sounds a little like "lets all get along" Kidergarden hippie. But none of us know each other except electronically. You only know me in this forum . Espically a forum so gated as music.

I dont know empharael hit and run attacks are alot harder to judge by Holmes Maxim. It is such a complex collection of things ...

If it was that bad, why not delete the whole thing, rather than dangling the beginning in front of the eyes of those who didn't get to read the full post? I agree with Nick about the whole rock star/heroin thing, too. It's like your Dad telling you about the time he fucked a hooker - "Believe me, son, it's something you'd never want to try!" Let us decide for ourselves; we're all adults here. If it truly was offensive and terrible, I think that either: (1) it would be ignored, in which case Denis would realize how little he matters here; or, (2) he would receive such flak that he'd be scared to rear his ugly head again (anyone remember the Neuromancer?).

I'm called for my 'grandstanding' but Kate is not called for her - what's the opposite? Petitstanding? Clogging bandwidth with commercial messages isn't offensive, but raising points of principle is.

And forgive me, but I've never been to I Love Everything. For me, I Love Music is I Love Everything. One thing I love about ILM is that here you can discuss Hitler and Jesus, and still be discussing music. So it's kind of worrying that here we are discussing promo for a Lollies tour, and people are saying 'This is sacred, you can't start discussing censorship in the middle of this.'

And I'm not sure what your problem is with 'selling people things' - there was obviously a reason Kate asked Tom first, and though I can't say for sure at the moment I expect the reason Tom was OK with Kate posting her tour announcement is that Kate is a well-known IL* poster, friends with many of the other posters, and it's a friendly thing to do to let people know that her band is going on tour, especially to places where she and other posters could meet up. If Tom ever writes his book I certainly hope he will post here and let people know, because it's the sort of thing that is only of greater interest to ILM posters because they know (in whatever sense) Tom.

As has been said many times before, this is not a "public" forum. It's certainly accessible to anyone with a web browser, so it's not private like a privately owned building is. But it's not like public property on which unlimited free speech is permissable, either. I would really really appreciate it if you didn't continue to demand that it be treated like one. I believe fairly certainly that if it were, it would not be such a periodically great place to talk about music, and a number of posters would end up looking elsewhere for music discussion.

I thought long and hard before posting these dates here, wondering "Is this just fucking flamebait for every abusive ass that's ever had a go at me?" But then, when Tom made it plain that it would be not just OK but encouraged for me to post dates, I went ahead, against my better judgement, thinking maybe people could overcome their petty agendas.

Yes, maybe it's an advertisement. But it also is a genuine request for meetups. When we toured the States last year, we met up with friends from the internet in every city, and we had a blast. If you are too concerned about your high moral lofty ideals about what this board should or shouldn't be to come along and share a good time with us, then you are cordially invited to lick my love pump.

I didn't even see the original post that was deleted, which I guess is a good thing, as it spares me having to respond. I'm guessing it's the usual jealous carping, in which case I will respond with, as certain friends are in the habit of saying, "My band's better than yours." Now fuck off.

She's very cool

The music's very fun

Go and see and judge both for yourself

There, not so hard, was it? :-)

By the way, next time you censor something, guys, do it round the back and get rid of the whole body. Don't leave severed limbs and items of clothing lying around, it just attracts liberals and mice.

What's different about the two boards is that they exist as a virtual community for a lot of people using them. Wouldn't it be kind of bizarre if you had a group of friends and you didn't tell them when and where you were going to be touring? I think there would actually be something pretty stuck-up about NOT giving the info.

Re: censoring whatever it was Denis said, we'll notice that whenever a moderator wades in and does this, half the board goes mental about censorship issues. Good: I believe in full freedom of expression which includes the right to question authority and chide someone for being an arsehole. I didn't see what Denis wrote but whenever I've been flamed (yes, by the same dickhead who hassles Kate) it's usually been silly boy, small penis, smaller profile bullshit. I'm sorry to be the one who always harps on about this but I can't help but call it as I see it.

Nick once said something true and perceptive about the REAL rapists being the ones who appoint themselves to 'protect' women from The Rapist, which applies here in the metaphorical sense; like him I don't like the idea that people might be thinking the women who post here need to be protected from hurtful comments to a greater degree than the guys. Sometimes I think the men are really trying to protect themselves from the realisation that the women on here are as/more intelligent as/ than they are, and are in many ways much better at looking after their own safety (only occasionally, mind, let's not get paranoid). Chivalry can have an ugly side.

Discussing Vidal/McVeigh letters is relevant here even before someone writes a song about it; I can't wait to see that book. Thread mutations rule...

As for the Komedia, we were at The Lift for ages, but then the nice people at Melting Vinyl said The Lift was too small and booked the Komedia for us. So that was that.

Incidentally... coming to meet me... do any of you actually know me here, aside from the ILE-ers? Oh, and Strange Fruit Presents Fonda 500 this Saturday! Please come it'll be ace! Look at www.strange- fruit.co.uk for details!!!

Ahem.

Incidentally, Momus, do you have any contact details for Stereo Total? They'd be a good band to play our club...

After reading the above postings, this forum reflects real life, not any sort of on-line community. Censorship in any form is disturbing. You have decreed it fit to censor people on this forum on a daily basis.

Unfortunately, this forum is treated as a private forum. If people posting do not reflect accepted opinion, they are

1. Censored 2. Mocked viciously on the I Love Everything board (I stopped posting there when I saw the Doompatrol/Necromancer Board). There is no free discussion on I love music. Opinions must reflect the majority. That's not discussion. That's facism.

This board is/has become redundant. Which is a shame because it was enjoyable before.

I am not a facist. I enjoy the anarchy and chaos of free opinion. I do not set myself up as judge and jury of a person's mind.

Shame, really.

However, if the opinion, is going to shouted out and drown out is it worthwhile?

Suppose it is!

Let the games begin.

I mean, I don't particularly agree with Kate's self-promotion, which is often and shameless. I also don't necessarily agree that the negative post should've been deleted - I did not read it, I will add that caveat. But, quite frankly, this is the most irritating argument I've seen Momus indulge himself in yet.

I will feel free to go to the next Momus gig in NYC, however, and scream obscenities and insults at the stage, just to see if I get bounced...

xxxxXXXXxxxxXXXXxxxxXXXXxxxxXXXX

Just so I can be a smarta$$ and say I spotted it first. x0x0

Hello, pot, my name is kettle, you're sure looking black today!

Although I appreciate that you all and your efforts are keeping my thread up in the top of the stats, so that my "advertising" goes on and on and on like the Energizer Bunny, could you maybe adjourn to the actual thread about censorship to address your perceived wrongs? I've managed to find about 4 or 5 people on ILE who are up for meet-ups... I really don't have the time to go wading through all this political grandstanding to find out if any people would like to honour my original request, which was to meet for a drink!

Oh dear, that would suck grandly, actually.

Kate: Get over yourself is all I have to say. You basically take a not-short post about how MOMUS IS WRONG FOR HAVING A GO AT YOU, boil it down to the one comment that could be remotely perceived as negative (you do talk about your band non-stop. I don't have an issue with it, as I told you on ILE, I just don't read your threads strictly devoted to promoting your band, which is what I think anyone who has been flaming you should be doing as well), and then reply only to that. You don't think that kind of proves the point that you can be completely self-interested? *sigh*

I'm still going to the Momus gig to insult him. Someone make sure that I'm aware of his NYC gigs so that I don't miss it. I think that'd be a fantastic time.

Mcgee with the same IP address? I thought he would have left Toronto by now. Isnt there anything we can do to get rid of him?

Momus, if those cafes are in Hiroshima ken you can let me know.

It's interesting, I never saw one of the posts from Doom Patrol that people whined about, and when I asked to be pointed at one no one bothered to suggest one.

I sense a CONSPIRACY.

I wasn't offended at all by Kate's announcement of tour dates. If I wasn't thousands of miles away, I would probably even come by and check out the band. I sure hope that if anyone from the States who posts here ever gets a tour together, they announce it. I'm hardly ever one to say this, but so many times I felt like posting: "Jesus, guys, just fucking reLAX."

And Ally, I don't mean this insultingly, but when you start talking about how different (and terrible) ILM has gotten since the "old days," it really does make newer posters - many of whom are regular posters with interesting, insightful things to say - feel somewhat self-conscious and, well, unwanted.

(Make up quote btw).

Oxford. I can probably do Oxford...

As some point in the past when I was sole moderator I said that posts which were abusive to other individual posters could and should be deleted. I still think this isn't a bad idea, especially now we have the much more freewheeling ILE. That said I think that posts and threads specifically *about* other posters are also a bad idea - cf. the Doom Patrol thread.

I suggested Kate post her tour dates because this is a community and she is a prominent member of it. There has been a "Hype" category on ILM since November or so and I would expect this thread to have ended up in it in the natural course of things.

ILM doesn't have 'responsibilities' to entertain and inform.
-- Josh, Wednesday, 8 August 2001 00:00 (6 years ago) Bookmark Link

4-4-2

Good morning, Dom, and what other threads are you reviving today?

http://www.libraries.wright.edu/special/dunbar/libretto/images/Who-Knows-copy_small.gif

i enjoyed this:

everyone should stop discouraging the mcveigh comparisons so we can see if momus will actually blow up a building over this.

-- ethan, Thursday, 9 August 2001 00:00 (6 years ago) Link

Corny indie period Ethan may be the least critically feted Ethan, but he still had some zings

...ok. i just thought it was funny.