TS: Bright Eyes Vs. The Smiths

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I was going to say something snide in the Conner Oberst death thread and then I realized that I was listening to I Know It's Over on WinAmp endless repeat by The FUCKING Smiths.

I went to Am I Hot Or Not and used Bright Eyes as a keyword and I found a lot of cute but very young girls and it made me feel pervy and a lot of emo pre-20's boys. Then I looked The Smiths as a keyword and got a lot of old sad bastard 20-something dudes and some attractive 20-something women.

So here is the basic question: Were The Smith's just a Bright Eyes for people who hit puberty during the first Bush Administration.

Sub-question: Would ILM accept Connor Oberst if he were from England?
What would an Anglo version of CO sound like?

― Mike Taylor (mjt), Sunday, 17 August 2003 20:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Chris Martin

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Sunday, 17 August 2003 21:03 (twenty-two years ago)

XPOST! (Nicely down, Mr. James)

Were The Smith's just a Bright Eyes for people who hit puberty during the first Bush Administration.

No, because the music was a hell of a lot better.

Would ILM accept Connor Oberst if he were from England?

"Greetings, hello. I am Connor Smithson-Oberst. I make passionate music about sad things in my life."

"Like Coldplay?"

"Er um uh."

What would an Anglo version of CO sound like?

Like Busted without the charm and considerable appeal. (Please note I think Busted have neither to begin with.)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 17 August 2003 21:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Nicely down? Yes, you are nicely down. And nicely done too.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 17 August 2003 21:03 (twenty-two years ago)

haha - I like exactly one song by both Bright Eyes and Coldplay, and they were both unavoidable big radio hits (becuz they were both...?) (although "Clocks" > "A Perfect Sonnet")

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Sunday, 17 August 2003 21:05 (twenty-two years ago)

haha - 90% of Athens coeds, summer 99-00 - "this Conor Oberst/John Mayer kid is gonnna be huge - he's sooooo cute"

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Sunday, 17 August 2003 21:07 (twenty-two years ago)

you people are fucked.

― reo fordecor, Sunday, 17 August 2003 23:30 (twenty-two years ago)

every night, five different ways

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Monday, 18 August 2003 00:19 (twenty-two years ago)

I've heard two full Bright Eyes songs and zero Smiths songs so I can't form an opinion. I suspect John Mayer is worse than both of them though.

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Monday, 18 August 2003 00:24 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm sorry, are you comparing Conor Oberst to the Smiths?

The difference is the Smiths were freaken geniuses... Conor Oberst is a whiny yank boy who takes himself a little too seriously.

― too much for my mirror (too much for my mirror), Monday, 18 August 2003 00:52 (twenty-two years ago)

The Smiths.. were not geniuses. Morrisey's lyrics tend to be self-pitying/self-indulgent crap (much like Oberst's), and Marr could write a nice, catchy melody.

Smiths are still better than Bright Eyes, though.

― Ian Johnson (elmo oxygen), Monday, 18 August 2003 03:34 (twenty-two years ago)

I'll be suprised if Bright Eyes or even Coldplay for that matter will be of much discussion fifteen years from now, which is about how long The Smiths have been broken up.

― earlnash, Monday, 18 August 2003 03:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Morrisey = self pitying/self indulgent but also funny/self-parodying?

― m.s (m .s), Monday, 18 August 2003 04:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Bright Eyes had a big radio hit???

― anthony kyle monday (akmonday), Monday, 18 August 2003 05:30 (twenty-two years ago)

it was called "Art Garfunkel"

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Monday, 18 August 2003 05:31 (twenty-two years ago)

like them or not, suggesting that bright eyes won't endure like the smiths is just ignorant. the smiths are still discussed for the exact same reason that bright eyes will still be discussed in 15 years, and it has nothing to do with talent or anything like that. it's because both bands have a large and incredibly fanatical fanbase of impressionable young people to whom the music means a great deal emotionally. i sorry to inform you guys that you don't get to decide what music will be remembered. i'm sure that fact doesn't sit well in a forum full of people so passionately invested in the told-you-so market.

― shut up, Monday, 18 August 2003 06:17 (twenty-two years ago)

haha!

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Monday, 18 August 2003 06:18 (twenty-two years ago)

we can't handle the truth!

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Monday, 18 August 2003 06:19 (twenty-two years ago)

bright eyes will be as fondly remembered as superchunk

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Monday, 18 August 2003 06:19 (twenty-two years ago)

not

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Monday, 18 August 2003 06:31 (twenty-two years ago)

It's funny whenever The Smiths are mentioned people often talk about how it's this music for emotionally isolated adolescents, or make some remark about how one "grows up" or "moves beyond" them or whatever. When I was in high school and college I pretty much couldn't stand them. It's only been since somewhere around age 25, I think, that I started to really get into them and appreciate what made them great.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Monday, 18 August 2003 06:39 (twenty-two years ago)

ha - actually I just remembered I was just listening to them on my discman on Friday night!

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Monday, 18 August 2003 06:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Mr. Diamond: when you were in high school/college and would hear the smiths, what was it that made you dislike them?

― shut up, Monday, 18 August 2003 06:49 (twenty-two years ago)

hmm.. good question. I'm not sure - I've always been pretty open-minded, but I think I really did just have a knee-jerk reaction to Morissey's lyrics/persona/vocal timbre/vocal delivery. Pretty much the whole package turned me off. I think I was always kind of a metal-head at heart, but I loved pop and I liked a lot of what passed for "alternative" at the time - even including foppish English groups like the Cure and Love and Rockets. And I recognized what an accomplished player Marr was. Yet I just couldn't get past Morrisey; I probably just identified myself opposite to him - I'm not like this faggoty self-absorbed English twit and I don't like his music. Something like that.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Monday, 18 August 2003 07:08 (twenty-two years ago)

but, like I say ... I love him now! (Just, apparently, not enough to spell his correctly)(twice! with different misspellings each time! egads - time for bed..)

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Monday, 18 August 2003 07:11 (twenty-two years ago)

aarrgh... name correctly, of course.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Monday, 18 August 2003 07:11 (twenty-two years ago)

The Smiths almost ruined my life but I do still love them. My guess from the little I've heard is that Bright Eyes records don't have as many good jokes and that it's harder to dance to most of them.

― Tom (Groke), Monday, 18 August 2003 08:08 (twenty-two years ago)

and the difference between the two is Bright Eyes can't see why that matters

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Monday, 18 August 2003 08:12 (twenty-two years ago)

well, a difference, maybe not the difference

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Monday, 18 August 2003 08:13 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm not positive that danceability was top of Morrissey's to-do list either James. But it is the key difference - the guy writing the lyrics did not also write the music, so there's an interesting tension in the Smiths stuff ("Girlfriend In A Coma" most crassly) which might be missing from BE.

― Tom (Groke), Monday, 18 August 2003 08:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Tom E's last point is good.

I am not sure that there are (many) 'jokes' in the Smiths catalogue. A hulmerous tone, yes.

RJG is the only person who has lots of Bright Eyes records. He should tell us what they sound like. I cannot imagine.

― the pinefox, Monday, 18 August 2003 08:25 (twenty-two years ago)

miccio's a big bright eyes fan too

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Monday, 18 August 2003 08:35 (twenty-two years ago)

[quote]both bands have a large and incredibly fanatical fanbase[/quote]

Bright Eyes doesn't have close to the audience the Smiths had/have. They've got a large and fanatical fanbase for an indie act.

I've only heard one Bright Eyes song, "Don't Know When But somethingsomethingsomething" off the last LP. It wasn't bad, but about twice as long as it needed to be.

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Monday, 18 August 2003 11:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Tom is OTM, I think. And I really don't get the BE hate; well, I get the "I can't stand his voice" argument, but I don't get the "he's so serious and whiney" argument, because there's a fair amount of irony in his songs; the last track on Fever and Mirrors is a full piss-take on people who take him oh so seriously. F&M, at least, has a large number of songs with lyrics that are so good they're startling.

Anyway, this is kind of a silly comparison because the Smiths and BE are attempting different things. I really doubt that BE are going to just disappear, I expect him to make albums far into his adulthood and keep getting better. When he turns 40 he can start sucking like Morrissey did and all can be even.

― anthony kyle monday (akmonday), Monday, 18 August 2003 13:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Also, I think a more fair TS would be Belle & Sebastian vs. the Smiths.

― anthony kyle monday (akmonday), Monday, 18 August 2003 13:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Taking Sides: Noel Gallagher vs Stuart Murdoch

― the pinefox, Monday, 18 August 2003 13:39 (twenty-two years ago)

The main difference, band-wise: Bright Eyes have the occasional great track, surrounded my big noisy messes of wailing and moaning; Smiths had consistently tight, varied, and focused tracks. I think this is a difference between the organization of the 80s format -- every song nearly a single -- and the 90s one, wherein the "album" concept has people trying for grand sweeps and often failing. This likely also has something to do with Tom's very-good point about authorship (which is, I think, another big difference between bands-then and bands-now).

Tracks that could possibly change the minds of one or two Bright Eyes haters: "If Winter Ends," "A Perfect Sonnet," "When the Curious Girl Realizes She Is Under Glass." (After that I stopped listening, cause boy did Fevers and Mirrors have some annoying sinkholes in there.)

― nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 18 August 2003 13:40 (twenty-two years ago)

I can see the potential problem with Oberst's voice, but I'll second nabisco's love for 'A Perfect Sonnet' and add that it has some of the most moving lyric's I've heard.

― person#0 (person#0), Monday, 18 August 2003 13:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Explanation of how to enjoy "If Winter Ends" -- see, it's frustrated depressive "I'm taking my anger out on this acoustic guitar" stuff, but notice how he seems (like we all usually do) completely self-aware of this, and notice how he rolls his eyes a bit and reaches that point of depressive frustration where it's sort of funny, and notice how that makes you feel better, if you've ever gotten there yourself. Also a bunch of performance details that I won't mention, as they won't seem as exciting if I do.

― nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 18 August 2003 13:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Another way of putting this: Oberst is on-point when he's completely not pretentious, when he sounds like he's writing troubled/confused songs from the standpoint of someone who completely realizes his trouble and confusion is deeply un-special and boring even to him, the narrator of it. On "If Winter Ends" he's not celebrating that stuff -- he sounds like he'd truly like to be rid of it, because it bores and annoys him, and he sings it like it's an irritating-but-comical dog that's been following him around and making his life difficult (see: Turner and Hooch).

― nabisco (nabisco), Monday, 18 August 2003 13:49 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm not so much a big Bright Eyes fan as a Conor Oberst fan. The Desaparecidos album is probably my fave album of the decade so far and the Bright Eyes albums are continually getting better and better (I adored a third of Fevers And Mirrors and about two thirds of Lifted, and he's been on other stray classics inc. "A Perfect Sonnet" and Park Ave.'s "All Boy Band," a song that doesn't get enough attention). The guy is getting better and better and is getting more and more popular so all I have to say to bitch threads like this is that haters hate, players participate. Word. Oh, and the only Smiths full-length as good as "Lifted" is "The Queen Is Dead."

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 18 August 2003 16:51 (twenty-two years ago)

And Queen Is Dead is better actually. And I haven't heard the self-titled Smiths one (but Conor's latest is better than Meat Is Murder and Strangeways).

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 18 August 2003 16:52 (twenty-two years ago)

I wasn't around for The Smiths, but I always got the impression that you'd be hard put to find someone who didn't like them around the time of "the Queen is dead". Which can't exactly be said for Bright Eyes.

(I was told this by a Morrissey-h4t0r, mind, so he might have been exaggerating a tad.)

Musically, the Smiths are better. There can be a tendency toward lack of variation in Bright Eyes tracks, the whole song dependent on the lyrics as far as holding the listener's interest goes (cf Waste of Paint, off "Lifted", which has one of the dullest accompaniments ever, but some excellent and some hilariously stupid lines in the vocal. Plus male hysteria!). Which ties in with Tom's completely-OTM point - you've the same person writing lyrics and music, and he seems to attach more importance/attention to the former. So you have less fleshed-out accompaniments, instrumentally boring, but they're also accompaniments designed to keep the lyrics in the foreground.

I think one of Bright Eyes' virtues lies in how over-the-top the lyrics and singing can be, though, and that's not something you really see in The Smiths' stuff. Morrissey's lyrics have a fine line in self-deprecation, in neatly-turned phrasing and capturing a mood almost too perfectly to stand. Oberst's lyrics are a lot sloppier, a lot more prone to silliness, and from someone who can pull off as 'cute a self-parody as "False Advertising" this almost seems intentional. In general, Bright Eyes songs are a lot more 'teenage' than Smiths ones - exaggerated gestures, all SUFFERING and POETRY and disproportionate verbiage and self-aggrandising self-pity - and to me that makes them more fun, and funnier.

...if it's possible to agree with nabisco's point without contradicting the paragraph, I'm doing that.

Also, Conor Oberst's bleating will always be preferable to those fucking sheep on 'Meat is murder'.

(I find Oberst's Deseparacidos stuff unbearable, but that's because I hate indie rock. And serious attempts at tackling Big Political Issues that don't come off irritate me.)

― cis (cis), Monday, 18 August 2003 18:32 (twenty-two years ago)

("without contradicting the paragraph above", that is. And it's nabisco's point about the troubled-n-confused narrator who realises that his trouble and confusion are dull and non-special and actually rather irritating. Stopping now.)

― cis (cis), Monday, 18 August 2003 18:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Bright Eyes is more collaborative then people think. (See: Mike Mogis.)

Someone explain why the Smiths as a dance band isn't some idea dreamed up to cover Ind*e Gu*lt.

(Also I made this comparison on ILM more then a year ago, you fools!) The only reason being that when the h8rs complain of Conor's mopiness and posturing, it is really only b/c they don't like the music whereas a Moz or Robert Smith gets a free pass.

(Conor would undoubtedly vote for the Smiths.)
(Also cis is now my favorite ILM poster.)

― bnw (bnw), Monday, 18 August 2003 19:31 (twenty-two years ago)

''hmm.. good question. I'm not sure - I've always been pretty open-minded, but I think I really did just have a knee-jerk reaction to Morissey's lyrics/persona/vocal timbre/vocal delivery''

i think you said somehting similar regarding the tindersticks' stuart staples.

In fact a smiths vs tindersticks might be a better TS thread. maybe one day.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 18 August 2003 19:53 (twenty-two years ago)

"If Winter Ends" = hideous whiny screeching. i'd rather stick a screwdrive in my ear.

― j'aime les sucettes (call mr. lee), Monday, 18 August 2003 20:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Or even a screwdriver.

― j'aime les sucettes (call mr. lee), Monday, 18 August 2003 20:02 (twenty-two years ago)

I would just like to note that "Waste Of Paint" is a horrible, HORRIBLE song that I would happily see removed from "Lifted." The worst song on the album by far.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 18 August 2003 20:07 (twenty-two years ago)

The Smiths as a dance band isn't dreamed up to cover anything - play the Smiths at indie discos from 1984 to now and you will always get a good reaction. Maybe Bright Eyes get the same reaction at indie discos - I only know about the ones I play these days and they don't feature. But the last time I was at someone else's "Bigmouth Strikes Again" was rolled out and everybody danced, as usual.

― Tom (Groke), Monday, 18 August 2003 20:24 (twenty-two years ago)

You couldn't dance to most Bright Eyes songs. The Smiths are definitely way more of a dance group.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 18 August 2003 20:27 (twenty-two years ago)

never thought of the smiths as something you could dance to.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 18 August 2003 20:31 (twenty-two years ago)

From what little I know of Bright Eyes a fairer comparison might be the Wedding Present, maybe?

― Tom (Groke), Monday, 18 August 2003 20:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Only if they were a hell of a lot screechier and loved Nick Cave, Tom.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 18 August 2003 20:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Mozzer's lyrics have more scope and depth and wit and subtlety (blah rockist whatever)... Seems to me that nearly every BE song has the same theme: I'm horribly depressed; I don't know why, exactly (or I like the faculties to understand why); but isn't it glamorous how I compensate with drugs and booze and sex. Embarassing.

― Aaron A., Monday, 18 August 2003 20:49 (twenty-two years ago)

never thought of the smiths as something you could dance to.

Not so much dance as "flail".

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 18 August 2003 20:52 (twenty-two years ago)

See, if he took out the booze and drugs and sex and politics and they didn't sound like an mp3.com emo band led by Chewbacca then it'd work great!

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Monday, 18 August 2003 20:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Curt1s, I was just reading this thread and saw your earlier post . . . you've heard 2 BE songs and 0 Smiths songs? I believe you completely, but am I the only one where who would think that impossible if asked? Maybe you've heard a Smiths song by now.

Also, I am with anyone here who has said that they couldn't love the Smiths when they felt like they might get lumped in with the demographic, but since has found the love in older age, with distance.

― southern lights (southern lights), Monday, 18 August 2003 21:44 (twenty-two years ago)

I was born in 1987 and did not listen to pop radio until about 11 years after that.

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Monday, 18 August 2003 22:45 (twenty-two years ago)

if you've listened to 99X in the middle of the day you've heard the smiths

― nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Monday, 18 August 2003 23:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Only occasionally. Right now I have school, so.. can't.

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Monday, 18 August 2003 23:09 (twenty-two years ago)

plastic mastery is like an improved version of bright eyes. BE is too self-indulgent, he needs an editor, he mocks the idea that people take him seriously but then he plays the tortured artist routine up in interviews. morrissey just seemed more himself, conor is a model looking young guy who probably gets all sorts of chicks and people gravitate towards him, his pathos seems contrived or drama for the sake of it.

― keith (keithmcl), Tuesday, 19 August 2003 01:02 (twenty-two years ago)

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