the official 'dance is dead' thread.

Dance to me seems to be an inherently limited genre... most dance records are incredibly homogenous, and there's only so much that can be done over a steady bass drum beat. Trance is especially guilty of this, how many records are just following the beat/spiky synth pad/female vocals paint-by-numbers formula?

Way Out West's 'The Fall' and Delirium's 'Silence' are more different than Rocket From The Crypt's 'On A Rope' is to Kings Of Leon's Molly's Chambers'

Dance is Dead - Long Live Dance!

2. How many people are still going out and raving their bollocks off, just not in hugely expensive superclubs?

what is this the dance edition of the guardian ?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/news/story/0,11711,1026272,00.html

In fairness to the guy he's not even a big dance DJ anyway, he's not a DJ, he's the guy who plays new tracks on a Friday night and does a fairly good job. He knows a belter when he hears one and he does sound genuinely excited by stuff, to lump Tong in with Judge Jules or someone is just scandalously wrong.

The idea that there's a "kind of music" Tong plays is fucking ludicrous as a criticism and betrays a total lack of knowledge of the guy's schtick. You could say he is a "house dj" but really he plays EVERYTHING, he has no style, he likes big tunes and he plays them and hence his radio show is just a collection of the newest promos in house (with a very very broad definition of house).

Has he ever been regarded as a DJ? Anyway I love Tong and if that makes me cheesey raverboy then whatever. Better than wet house traditionalist anyday.

Honestly using inverted commas around dance music snobbily when discussing Tong really is the pits, also dead commercially? Have my doubts, there are dance records all over the charts.

There are interesting things going on, way more than I have a chance to fully explore. There are still great DJs, and still great nights, and not just in "small clubs with groups of mates doing it for themselves", there are still big fuck off soundsystems etc etc etc, I hate all this snivelling Jockey Slut crap about how "not mixing is the new mixing" or "these students set up a club in an old mens toilet, now they've booked dj hell to rock the urinals, small clubs are the new dance music".

I think "dance is dead" is a dying theory ANYWAY thankfully, perhaps the Guardian writing about it confirms this. I am not going to read the article, I can't bear the thought of broadsheet rock twats writing with barely concealed glee or I told you so shit about how dance is dead vanquished by king rock. and pop is next you know?

Nonsense, also it's not even worth responding to person's post is it?

Careful Dave!

Of course not mixing is fine but the articly in Jockey Slut actually said "next time you go clubbing and have a great night, chances are the DJ won't be mixing", that's fine if they're not talking about dance music but, well, they are.

The same bloody article had a quote from Ivan Smagghe saying "it's very very very rare to find a good dj who doesn't mix". Good writing there chris blue.

and for what it's worth, Pete Tong is a competent DJ and i really enjoyed his mix compilations and live sets because i knew he would play the biggest and best tunes from a broad range of styles. in the mid 90s he was one of my favouriote DJs full stop just for this reason!

He plays tracks which he likes, he talks about them, lots of them are great, some are shit, it's popular house music, not a difficult concept. Not meant to be a difficult concept.

i never, ever thought i would see this sentence written by anybody...

i do think it's interesting that maybe you can no longer go out and command fees like Paul Oakenfold did in the late 90s. this seems to be the case for a whole lot of professionals from web designers to Premiership footballers also. stupid techno-cultural awareness increase via economic downturn...

It's true what you say about some writers Dave, and then you have someone like Malik who was doing such a great job at Muzik I felt, and alas it goes bust.

relative to hitler, rasputin and the rev canaan banana, that is...

Unless you base "longterm success" exclusively on how many top 10s you have, this is absolute bollocks. Even as a, cough, rockist he should know better. Most of the Warp roster, for example, surely enjoy enough 'success' to make a comfortable living off of their music (cue someone pointing out why this is RONG - no, please do so, I don't wish to look overpresumptious).

Stelfox's observations are pretty much entirely on point, and you don't have to be championing a gaggle of art students playing wax cylinders in phone boxes to acknowledge them.

Does anyone have the relative R1 listening figures? Does Tongy get more listeners than Lamacq, or whoever is doing the Evening Sesh equivalent these days? Or Westwood, for that matter. I never listen to the radio, I haven't got the slightest clue.

But come on, even Ronan should be able to see that dance isn't the all-conquering inescapable mainstream superforce it was in this country in the mid-late 90s. But then I'm not sure 'indie' is either.

Where does garage fit into this?

But of course, this doesn't mean it's dead in the slightest.

Also, in the mid-late 90s when dance music was at its commercial peak, I don't remember hip-hop and rnb really registering on the cultural map much at all, and they're inescapable again these days.

Tong roxx u r all gay.

and also i never listen to the radio either - all that music and chat gives me a headache.

People ALWAYS forget the Jaxx and Daft Punk when talking about the decline of "dance's biggest artists" (by which they always mean the Prodge, Orbital, Underworld, Leftfield and the Fatboy).

The basis of "dance is dead" is yeah the Chemical Brothers have got a bit shite, Daft Punk are too lazy to make records, and the lot of them are too old, why can't we have some more dance music for rock fans? It must be dead that dance thing. I guess what you say Matt is cos they're (a)slightly younger and (b)they are not superstars like most of that list and they still release records for clubs which is a big no-no obviously for a big dance act.

If I wasn't lazy I could make a comp which this same audience would love.

Something like Vitalic is so insanely good that I wonder how anyone who's heard The Poney EP or heard a live set can think dance might even be close to death.

This is so screamingly obvious I don't know why I'm posting it, but hey.

Would anyone notice?

this is just market forces more than anything else, music always expands beyond its natural level when it explodes, and then returns to its natural level, which it now is at

i dont understand the pete tong love, he was the enemy, hes better now, because a) hes broadened a little, b) music in his sphere is good right now, but that guy never played any hardcore, he hardly played jungle, he never played any jeff mills, damon wild, claude young. inclusive my ass, pete tong does have a type of dance music, just look at the things that get left out. he plays good stuff, he plays bad stuff, i agree, but within parameters, which is fine, but lets not pretend he goes outside those parameters (nor, necessarily should he)

ronan yr right about everything you've said on this thread.

Reverand Milo
http://www.kiss100.com/nav?page=kiss.dj&fixture_radio_dj=405483

In 2001 Jamie Anderson, from Bristol released a stunning album of tech-house brilliance that Carl Craig would have been proud of, the likes of Petridis of course don't even know it exists.

Jamie Anderson - Blue Music
http://www.burntblue.com/music/review.asp?MusicReview=1407

also sign up for >>> Tech-House list
http://www.techno.ca/communication/lists/tech-house/

(from the review of jet's 'get born')

"...the raucous ROLLOVER DJ glories in the long overdue death of dance muisc. just like the rest of us, the Cester brothers were dismayed that chancers were getting millions just to play other people's records at gigs - who the fuck can't- and are ecstatic those daft days are over."

where, *oh where* to begin ?

"Dance Music Is Dead" by Philip Sherburne

I haven't read it yet.

Isn't this basically what most of us have been saying throughout this whole debate?

yer daft sod yer.

"the records sound the same as they did 5 years ago"

I mean, honestly! That is such an obvious thick thing to say about dance music, like "they sound the same, they are all eh beats and eh breakdowns"

Also he patently doesn't have a clue, as pisces points out he contradicts himself at the end and it's a fairly cheap pay off to dance music to say oh yeah it's diverse now I wasn't slating the entire thing.

The point he fails to realise on a wider level is that just because "ecstacy is everywhere" for a 28 year old man doesn't mean this is the case for a 17 year old or a 16 year old. Dance music remains by nature something which hits people fully as they turn 17 or 18 and can actually go to clubs, and ecstacy is like this too.

And it's not just the ecstacy, as I've said before elsewhere it's the fact that you grow up thinking music means gigs and songs on the radio and albums and then you discover it also can mean your social life, your friends, maybe your job. I maintain as ever that it's not about dance selling records or being in Q magazine or even about fashion (which incidentally I believe he's very wrong about too), the main thrill is rooms full of people or fields full of people and music being blasted out of a system. I mean this is all cliche to people who like dance music because it's so OBVIOUS.

This crap about "a 30 something man playing records" is such utter toss and so much of this article just goes back to criticisms of the fundamental nature of dance music, not what it has become or some shit like that. And that's what bites the most, that Petridis obviously has at some point been into dance and yet totally abandons it and seems as ignorant as someone who never was clubbing in the first place.

I don't really see how club culture has become "more fragmented and diverse". I don't think it's even scaled down as much as he says, I mean I'm sure if he just went to fucking Fabric or Homelands or something he could write a totally different story, does anyone really give a fuck about Manumission? What's exactly wrong with the records at Manumission if it's full? He's so vague, he doesn't once qualify any of his criticisms or assertions adequately, basically just says things and then says more things.

Sure Ibiza has less people but all that's really happened is that dance isn't selling albums and pulling in floating voters as much. Even with that as a given you'll still fill an Erick Morillo show in a club ten times faster than a more well known rock band who has actually sold records. Dance is still an attractive option I think, and if you think globally it's clear that it's exploding all over the world aswell which rubbishes the musical diss even more.

Sure dance isn't new, but it will always be the most attractive night out and the very best way of spending your spare time for plenty of people.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/features/story/0,11710,1029644,00.html

it does seem true though that there's been less sonic development in music in the last 5 years then there was in the 5 before. i'm talking about things like compression and filter techniques and actual sounds that were pretty new 10 years ago and naturally become over-used everywhere and their novelty impact decreases as you'd expect a few years down the line. i don't suppose Petridis really meant that though.

the '30 year old' dj thing is merely a consequence of the music/genre's own age. it's the same deal with guitar music though really. would you prefer to watch teenagers or parents? i guess it depends what they do, how they do it etc. on an individual basis.

This is just playing up to people who agree with him already, also due to having heard nothing but albums for 4 years, and based on no evidence whatsoever! It's seriously such utter toss and it makes me sick, SICK TO MY STOMACH ILX!

"oh sex, it's just two living organisms reproducing"

A 30 year old man playing records could mean my Uncle listening to Acker Bilk or Felix Da Housecat having just done a wicked set to 1000 people. I can't think of a more ignorant criticism of dance.

I sort of agree Steve, about the records thing, but I think the records will always have certain fundamental conventions, in any genre, and sure you can say they exist to be broken but I don't think there's any fear that house (cos lets face it he means HOUSE not techno and certainly not drum and bass or anything else) is a fairly sprawling beast of a genre.

I do probably agree at this stage though that the day these articles aren't around is probably when it's over.

God and to think I defended Alexis Petridis around here for so many months!

To be fair, Ronan, you did ignore the bits about him saying how great Nag Nag Nag was, and it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if Manumission was playing basically the same sounds it was five years ago. Although I admit it *is* pandering to people's preconceptions, especially the "just a bloke playing records" bit, which is the single most rockist thing you can say about dance music.

with that as a given you'll still fill an Erick Morillo show in a club ten times faster than a more well known rock band who has actually sold records.

Well yeah, but that's because people go to a club primarily to dance. But I bet a prominent rock gig sells out far quicker than a Morillo night. What you're saying is equivalent to talking about The Libertines selling out an NME night faster than Felix Da Housecat - its entirely natural for its setting. What you're saying neither proves nor disproves any points.

I'm not sure I ever knew the idea of a superclub anyway so I don't really know what to say about them. There are still plenty of big clubs around Britain though.

It's interesting because in Ireland the recession has only hit recently, about 6 months or a year behind Britain, but it has also been about more enforced licensing laws closing clubs. Alot of the stuff about things going small and people doing it for themselves are coming to be over here now, but that said musically things feel as strong as ever and as I said I do think these dance is dead articles assume the music is dying too.

One thing about all the criticism of superclubs from within and outside of dance music is that it's easy to praise small nights and get into them and yes they are great, I'm starting one and I can't wait, but I have learned long ago that the experience of being stuffed into a club with 1000 people when a DJ is really rocking the place and people are going mad is one you forget very quickly and then can underrate easily. I remember going to Tivoli in Dublin when it first opened and thinking how when it wasn't crowded it was still cool cos you could dance and get drinks easier. Then one day it was rammed and you realise how much better it is.

He did say Fatboy Slim was playing at Manumission and although I like him still(queue ILX dance haters yeah CASHboy Slim etc etc shut up) he is hardly the guy to use as a yardstick for DJing. That said he still plays new records and last time I saw him he wasn't playing particularly old school stuff.

Mainstream house music does change, it's just quite subtle, it's easy to say it stays the same because the feeling and the vibe are often the same and hell what is going to change about people going mad in a club, it's a generational thing by nature and it's easy to say "that was the same for me". Maybe it was and maybe it wasn't, I have no idea how my own experience of rave relates to Petridis or anyone elses but I am fairly sure there are plenty of people like myself around the world and this is what the dance is dead articles are missing out on.

It's not just me exaggerating to say 80 percent of people I know live for dance music, and of those at least half want to make a career from it one way or another. I still think it captures the imagination and the spare time of young people unlike any other form of music. I know people who are in bands but I don't think the level of obsession is quite so strong.

(and I do think it's worth noting that petridis basically only means house music here, what about techno or dnb eh? i suppose they're dead already or something)

I WANT TO BE PACKED IN A DARK SWEATY FACTORY BASEMENT WITH JUST A STROBE AND 200 DISCO NIHILISTS READY TO JACK THEIR BODIES AND LOOSE THEIR MINDS IN THE SOUND.

FUCK YOU AND YOUR DAD'S GUITAR!

ACIIIEEEEED!!!

I look forward to the day the world wakes up, puts on The Darkness album and says "Hang on, this isn't much cop, is it?"

re superclubs - aren't they dying or dead because they were simply about promoters cashing in? (not abt music!)