The Burden of the Indie Lyric Writer

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do we expect more of indie lyricists than we do of lyric writers in other pop genres? And if so, why?

― MarkH (MarkH), Thursday, 21 August 2003 12:15 (twenty-three years ago)

This was prompted by a combination of things I've noticed, including:

Some of the comments on this Field Mice thread.

The fact that whenever anyone starts a thread about a light-hearted indie band, the Sultans of Ping FC, say, or Frank & Walters, then there will be some comment made early on about "ILM having hit a new low", sometimes before any comments are made about the actual music at all.

and

whilst many ppl have much love for New Order and it is quite commonplace to hear it said that they have as much worth musically as Joy Division, Bernard Sumner's lyrics are frequently slated and dismissed as "trite".

― MarkH (MarkH), Thursday, 21 August 2003 12:20 (twenty-three years ago)

Because they're like my fwiends.

― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 21 August 2003 12:20 (twenty-three years ago)

I'd say we do expect more of 'indie' lyricists than of some genres, but not of all.

When compared to straight pop, more focus is laid on the indie lyrics as there's a kind of hidden assumption that they will be more meaningful (this is not to say that pop lyrics aren't meaningful, the keyword is 'assumption'). Pop's focus is less on lyrics and more on the song as a whole -- melody and production too (moreso than indie, anyway).

However, if we compare indie to something like Hip-Hop/Rap, there's a lot more of a focus on lyrics within the latter, as often this is the major feature of the song (alongside features like delivery and flow, but I'd say these were affected by the lyrics themselves).

― person#0 (person#0), Thursday, 21 August 2003 12:39 (twenty-three years ago)

Indie (or indie music fans more specifically) has this smugness to it, like a superiority complex that's implicit. It's like they feel more intelligent/cooler because they "grasped",say, Built To Spill while the rest of the poor saps are still listening to Top 40. So the heavier criticism vis-a-vis the lyrics is a way of people saying "here's the soapbox, bring it byaaaaaatch. Please show us your overwhelming wit and cleverness and enlighten us with your insights".

― alex in montreal, Thursday, 21 August 2003 18:23 (twenty-three years ago)

I take the complete opposite viewpoint. Billy Joel could not get away with writing lyrics like Bernard Sumner's. And when an indie band covers a pop song, people tend to listen more closely to the lyrics and then give credit to the pop artist - where they would have never considered it otherwise.

Indie artists get off a little easier because they demonstrate more often that they aren't total saps. Pop artists have to give 110% just to get a passing grade.

― dave225 (Dave225), Thursday, 21 August 2003 18:34 (twenty-three years ago)

Aside from maybe Dandy Warhols, I can't think of any 'indie' band that could get away with 'Oops I Did it Again'.

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Thursday, 21 August 2003 18:53 (twenty-three years ago)

Compare and contrast: Liz Phair's "indie lyrics" on pre-Liz Phair albums with her "pop lyrics" on Liz Phair. Did her lyrics get qualitatively worse, or did their placement within a pop context reveal their weaknesses (or obscure their strengths)?

― Nick Mirov (nick), Thursday, 21 August 2003 20:32 (twenty-three years ago)

I like indie, and Built to Spill, but they've always struck me as a pretty straightforward power pop w/much classic rock Neil Young guitar wankery. Their lyrics aren't exactly that hard to comprehend. I really like "Keep It Like A Secret" and there's certainly nothing off-putting or willfully obscure about it - it's got super hooks....Maybe you mean Pavement or something – they're to me the prototypical indie snob band (I like them too, so guess what that makes me?)

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:33 (twenty-three years ago)

Also see !!!, Jon Spencer Blues Explosion for popular-with-indie-dorks indie rock with sub-retard lyrics.

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:45 (twenty-three years ago)

who is the "we" in the question?

― thom west (thom w), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:47 (twenty-three years ago)

also Strokes, most of the garage rock revival, Nashville Pussy, Queens of the Stone Age, most stoner rock

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:48 (twenty-three years ago)

don't be fooled by the rocks that i got
i'm still i'm still jenny from the block

― thom west (thom w), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:51 (twenty-three years ago)

ILM has hit a new low = a comment about the music

(sometimes)

― thom west (thom w), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:56 (twenty-three years ago)

Indie is pop too, isn't it? MarkH even said so in his question. At least, NOW it is, ever since some undefined moment in the early 90s.The wonder to me is that there was ever music with choruses and guitars and drums and 4 minute songs that was NOT pop. Anyway, my point, such as it is, is that there's always been a day-dream poet-drawing wordish strain to pop music. It makes sense that people would listen to this strain with an ear for lyrics, I guess. When I listen to Georges Brassens (indie as fuck) I can't understand the lyrics because they're in French, but I can tell that they're a big part of the song, and I wish I knew what they were. I don't know what "straight pop" is, though, if person#0 or alex in montreal could give an example I'd feel better. awww.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 21 August 2003 21:57 (twenty-three years ago)

Indie (or indie music fans more specifically) has this smugness to it, like a superiority complex that's implicit

with all respect, the smuggest music fans i've come across have all been top 40 r'n'r fans or dance music heads. i think the above is an utter myth.

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Thursday, 21 August 2003 22:24 (twenty-three years ago)

There's a lot of smug denounciation of indie smugness in this thread.

― Tim Stewart (Tim Stewart), Friday, 22 August 2003 00:53 (twenty-three years ago)

I think esoj is right, and I think it's because a lot of top-40 fans are "recovering" indie people who think they've discovered The Truth

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Friday, 22 August 2003 01:13 (twenty-three years ago)

NB I myself am a recovering indie person who has discovered The Truth

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Friday, 22 August 2003 01:13 (twenty-three years ago)

i am a non-recovering indie person who occasionally dabbles in The Truth

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Friday, 22 August 2003 01:16 (twenty-three years ago)

being indie is like alcoholism? Am I someday going to wake up in a pool of my own vomit, with dirtied trousers, wondering why I went on that Starlight Mints binge last nite?

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 22 August 2003 01:51 (twenty-three years ago)

good indie is like a fine wine. bad indie (The Coral, Kings of Leon) is like asta spumante

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Friday, 22 August 2003 02:41 (twenty-three years ago)

I love music.

― David A. (Davant), Friday, 22 August 2003 04:19 (twenty-three years ago)

When I was about 16, all (and I mean ALL) of my friends liked American poodle-rock complete with spandex trousers, flying-v guitars and someone called "Steve Vai". A bit like The Darkness now.

They used to ask about my records, which were invariably John Peel indie type stuff. They couldn't understand that people who didn't appear on Top Of The Pops could make records.

Back then, and still now to a lesser extent, I certainly expected more - much more - from indie lyricists. The reason was that it made the music I liked mean something on a "higher level" or something like that. And it set it apart from the shite they listened to.

― John Jarvis, Friday, 22 August 2003 07:55 (twenty-three years ago)

John we did discover The Truth. I am a happier and better person for renouncing indie and I just want others to accept the same joy into their lives - is that so very wrong?

― Tom (Groke), Friday, 22 August 2003 10:56 (twenty-three years ago)

I can see how you might be a happier person for renouncing one form of music in favour of another (or others which I suspect is more accurate assessment of the situation). That is not a difficult thing to understand. But I fail to see how it could've made you a better person.

― MarkH (MarkH), Friday, 22 August 2003 11:13 (twenty-three years ago)

Mark believe and you too will be saved!

(Serious answer: less snobbish, less selfish = better. But I'm not really being serious above anyway.)

― Tom (Groke), Friday, 22 August 2003 11:15 (twenty-three years ago)

less snobbish, less selfish = better

Tom is secretly Pete Waterman! Wait, no, Tom likes Belle and Sebastian. *ponders*

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 22 August 2003 12:14 (twenty-three years ago)

Belle & Sebastian are folk, not indie.

― N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 22 August 2003 12:21 (twenty-three years ago)

Thankyou N. Listening to folk is better because then you are in touch with the people. If you listen to indie you believe the masses should all be herded onto an island somewhere and use each others bones for instruments to make their so-called 'dance' music.

― Tom (Groke), Friday, 22 August 2003 12:23 (twenty-three years ago)

I think you just described an island of Tom Waits.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 22 August 2003 12:28 (twenty-three years ago)

Starring Johnny Depp.

― N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 22 August 2003 12:31 (twenty-three years ago)

STOP MAKING INDIE SOUND GOOD YOU BASTARDS

― Tom (Groke), Friday, 22 August 2003 12:34 (twenty-three years ago)

Belle & Sebastian are folk, not indie.

Don't insult the folk genre by situating this bunch of useless twats amongst them

― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 22 August 2003 12:37 (twenty-three years ago)

O no I have upset the folkies. Who will offer my lovely B&S a room for the night?

― N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 22 August 2003 12:43 (twenty-three years ago)

so-called 'dance' music

cue oldest argt. in world: if the indie people enjoy dancing to it, are they somehow deficient for not preferring something else to dance to?

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Friday, 22 August 2003 12:46 (twenty-three years ago)

Yes: saw their ankles off.

― Tom (Groke), Friday, 22 August 2003 12:47 (twenty-three years ago)

burn down the disco. hang the blessed dj

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Friday, 22 August 2003 12:47 (twenty-three years ago)

'cos um isn't that kinda the mirror image of "you people don't really like Destiny's Child do ya"

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Friday, 22 August 2003 13:36 (twenty-three years ago)

Don't use the r-word round me pls.

― Tom (Groke), Friday, 22 August 2003 13:39 (twenty-three years ago)

'really'?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 22 August 2003 14:10 (twenty-three years ago)

*shudders*

― Tom (Groke), Friday, 22 August 2003 14:28 (twenty-three years ago)

Tom is not quite a Knight Who Says Ni.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 22 August 2003 14:31 (twenty-three years ago)

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