Printing Quotes from Caribbean Artists Phonetically: C/D?

Hell if I know, really. I can only guess that there are music editors who want to appear more "street" to their readers. However, unless you are writing for Ebony, Vibe or Jet, it just appears tired.

I still hate the use of riddum.

(Do you think it's less popular in the U.S. because of the contentious history of whites using African-American vernacular in literature, minstrel shows, etc.?)

Yes, that's what I'm curious about. Also whether Mojo would do this if they were interviewing, say, Cornelius.

It prolly wouldn't, but those were the first examples to come to my head.

[[i took a course in mark twain and we read much of the "regionalist" literature that he took inspiration from (and umbrage at). some of it does seem to be ridiculing the characters, others are lovingly recreating their ways of speech. one way to tell the difference: in the former many words that are pronounced the same as their "standard english" equivalents will nonetheless be spelled differently ("wut") seemingly to suggest that the misspellings correlate to the speaker's mental failings. in the latter, words are truly spelled according to the speech. obviously even in such cases the language can be used to poke bad-natured fun (see some minstrel routines with exaggerated versions of black english) but often not.]]

When I worked at the Guardian, the practice of phoneticising non-standard English was disparaged (eg. writing 'fook' for 'fuck' if Liam Gallagher said it). As some angry correspondent wrote, it's a really bad transcription of the Manc accent anyway. The reasoning being that the practice implies that the correct spelling tallies with the middle class RP accent and other accents are a deviant novelty. 'Sarf London' was another one that writers got ticked off about.

The difficulty comes when a particular regional or cultural group itself chooses to spell a word its own way. Scots often like to write 'football' as 'fitba', which is closer to the way it's said in a strong Glaswegian accent. Or does 'fitba' count as its own word?

also "riddim" means something diff. from rhythm.
I don't agree, but I also don't care enough to argue that.

a "riddim" in ja. pop has generally come to mean (first among producers/musicians and later amongst everyone) a reusable backing track over which would be laid a vocal and perhaps a lead instrument or two. whereas if you refer to the "rhythm" of, say, a rock song, it refers more to an abstract element of the music, if you catch my drift.

In terms of English, Jamaican Patois (and other English-based Caribbean creoles) are much farther afield from Standard English than stuff you hear in the home counties or the lower 48. Unlike say Black English in the US, which derives 99% of its features from the same British English dialects that other American dialects do, Jamaican Patois is a true creole. There are substantial differences there that Standard English speakers miss because they see it and think it's slang or broken English. Nothing could be further from the truth.

It's possible they are being quoted exactly because the person writing the article is smart enough to know they're speaking what amounts to another language and also smart enough to know that if they aren't fluent in Patois, they shouldn't attempt to translate.

-fh

The trick, as with any time you want to get across someone's accent in some form, is to let readers imagine it even when they're NOT reading a strictly phonetic transcription (you introduce a few words and their pronunciation seperately. E.G.: When he said "them," he actually said "dem"--I'd come up with a better example given another minute). I think it's also entirely okay to flip a word construction here or there if it will read more comprehensibly. It has nothing to do with condescension, it has to do with your audience. I want people reading an article to understand what a person is saying and not throw the magazine in the trash out of frustration. It's the interview-subject's IDEAS that are sacrosanct, and the meaning of his/her words, not the sound of his voice. (N. OTM)

The grand exception, for me, is Timothy White's Bob Marley biography, in which you practically had to just get used to the Jamaican way of speaking, and then everything sounded right that way once you did.

Mandarin and Cantonese are way further apart than Jamaican and American English, so I don't see the comparison. And Amateurist is OTM on "riddim." But I can understand the fatigue of people sick of reading white critics write, "Yeah, mon, go to this reggae show, praise Jah ovah," blah blah blah...

the problem is not so much "them" vs. "dem" as all the words and phrases in jamaican patois that don't have a similar obvious correlative in american or british english. it's not simply a matter of phoentics but of language and meaning.

the final thing--i alluded to this above--is that jamaican patois is such a beautiful thing, i think american english could stand even more injections of it and that won't happen if all quotes are rewritten for american consumption.

Spoken, sure, but do you really think that about seeing it written?

"Jamaican patois is used extensively throughout the book, the rhythms of the dialect akin to that of a rubber ball bouncing down stairs and into a child's gentle grip. As for the spellings and definitions of most of the patois words threaded through the text, I am indebted to Cambridge University Press's Dictionary of Jamaican English, edited by F.G. Cassidy and R.B. LePage, without which I could never have transcribed many of my interviews. Other spellings employed in the replication of the island vernacular follow as closely as possible the slightly inconsistent style of the Daily Gleaner, Jamaica's 158-year-old newspaper."

That White needed a reference to transcribe the interviews is telling. I don't find it particularly distracting in "Catch a Fire" because the book is so well written and researched. I have had to reread the direct quotes two or three times, though.

Not knowing what you're doing/
being inconsistent/
making stuff up
= dud

(x-post with last six or seven entries)

Why are those phrases less of a "problem" when spelled out phonetically? Wouldn't they be just as beautiful spelled out otherwise?

Well, let's see...

This is Luke Lane and Charles Street - this a MY corner, a weh we grew up on - right deh so we use to sit down, use to play dice deh so.

This is Luke Lane and Charles Street -- this is (was?) MY corner, where we grew up (the one we grew up on?) -- right there, we used to sit down, (and?) we used to play dice there.

This corner deh so, Tom the Great Sebastian buildin' dis - all the music you hear come from dis corner.

This corner there (here?), Tom the Great Sebastian built this. All the music you heard came from this corner.

That's why I mek the tune "Luke Lane Shuffle" - this is Soulsville Center. All these buildin' go up an' down through the war an' ting like that, but this is where everything was.

That's why I make (made?) the tune "Luke Lane Shuffle" -- this is Soulsville Center. All these buildings were going up and down through the war and things like that, but this is where everything was.

--------

All right, so it seems like you can more or less retain the meaning of what's being said, but you lose the rhythm and character of it. And if you're trying to pass them off as direct quotes, you're in trouble. It's more like a translation than a quote, because you're assigning verb tenses and conjunctions and all kinds of things that aren't in the original and aren't needed in the original.

And what about "gangsta"? Everybody uses gangsta now, it's become its own specific word. Is it racist for mainstream, middle-class, middlebrow American publications to use gangsta? Should they all still be talking about "gangster rap"?

Well if they are words distinct to a dialect then obviously they have to be 'transcribed accordingly'. Can you explain what you mean? (I realise there's a grey area over what constitutes a dictinct word - as with the 'rhythm'/'riddim' debate above).

Jesse - all speech has rhythm and character, not just Jamaican patois.

It does. It's just like in hip hop where 'beat' means more than just the drums and can refer to the entire musical backing, even melodic elements.

Do people think dancehall lyrics should be 'translated' when quoted?

As N. alluded upthread, the main reason UK people do this and US people don't (mostly) is surely SCOTLAND!

I suspect the difference in meaning, if one exists, is for non-Jamaicans talking about Jamaican music. Which is fine and dandy, I'm not trying to imply some kind of moral superiority in either direction.

Indeed, the Greensleeves series based around what I've usually seen referred to as "riddims" (Diwali, Clappas etc) is in fact called the Rhythm Album Series.

Why exactly? You think Scottish accents are the only British accents which deviate markedly from Standard English? Most of them do, outside the South Eastern corner of England that is.

outside the South Eastern corner of England that is.

Dadaismus, have you ever been to London?

Rhythm is quite a difficult word to spell, so that might have helped it on its way.

The politic purpose then is respecting the self-image of artists and their community. Certainly there are JA singers and producers who play DOWN their patois, or have eliminated it altogether, and that should be reflected in the transcription as well.

Reading transcriptions of the way people talk should force us not to think about how different it is from "correct" English, but rather cause each of us to reflect on ourselves and our own identities as we consider the ways in which each writer/author/performer attempts to find a voice to articulate their own experience.

Oh, and to be annoyed by the word "riddim"? What's your problem?

So, yeah, how do Jamaicans write patois?

Check, as Timothy White did when writing "Catch a Fire," the Oxford Dictionary of Jamaican English and the Daily Gleaner.

Here's an example:

Remember when?

Jennifer Keane-Dawes, Contributor

ME dear mam, de other day me had was fe meet dis fambily a foreign. Suh, since dem neva much long move come a foreign from fe dem country, dem neva quite memba de full foreign address weh dem lib. Suh, when dem was trying fe gi me de directions, dem did memba de road but not de exact combinationa de number a de yard. Well, anyway, me drive galang. An when me ketch pon de road, me begin fe drive slow. A look fe see if me see any a dem out inna de yard. Well my dear lady, me neva see a soul, but of all de house pon de road, me notice dis one das hab a whole heap a dutty boot line off pon de mat pon de veranda. Pupa boot. Muma boot. Baby boot an visita boot.

Breeze out

Ebry boot lef outta door overnight fe breeze out. While everybaddy under sheet a kill sleep.

But me dear mam, after me go deh an begin beat dung de door. Cause de boot dem, plus de condition a de boot dem, mek me know certain seh a deh dem lib, everybaddy fly pass de clack. Huppen de door. Fe come ask me a what time. Suh me seh to meself seh bwoy, from yu hab a keen eye like me granny, nuh matter weh people go. An nuh matter weh dem do. Yu can still tell weh dem used to. Cause missis, when it used to come on to fe me granny. Nuh matter how eddicated de smady was, Or nuh matter how dresstificated dem be. Fe me granny coulda tek one look pon how dem position dem self pon de veranda. One look pon how dem yeye dis a roam through de door creases when de door huppen. Or one look pon how dem belch an neva seh pawden. Fe she come announce roun a back seh de smady charactergone.

Suh missis, while nuff foreign people nuh joke fe cock up dem foot wid de said dutty boot pon dem cawfee table, inna settee, or even inna bed. (An if yu believe a lie, tun on yu TV an look pon dem good) When it come on to dis lef-yu-boot-outta-door bisniss, nuh joke wid nuff Third World people, including meself. Cause a dis late a days me kine a tone dung little. Cause while me nuh hab nuh more fowl coob top like weh me used to put me crepp pon a night time when me lilly. Or while me naw go really lef me boot outta door now fe mek foreign dawg cause me fe run dem dung an charge fe murder,

me naw go tek one look pon a smady clean, clean floor or carpet. An walk inna dem house wid de boot unless me get permission. Yu get me? Cause while a next man woulda stan up oneside an seh de place mek fe walk pon, if yu notice good, de same householder wi either tell yu seh is awright. Kip dem on. Or him wi smile an show yu which part yu fe lef dem till yu ready. Suh missis, yu cyaan run joke wid certain tings an certain people. A lie?

A certain set

Cause yu might know a set weh, when dem spread up dem bed an feel tired inna de day, woulda prefer spread a sheet pon de floor an liddung rather dan go pon de bed. An when dem wake up an fine dem nose cawk up, dem up an dung a wonder wah cause it. Not fe mention de people dem weh hab certain part a dem house weh not even dem pickney can go. Or, certain tings inna de breakfront weh dem kip fe certain day. Fegatting everyting seh we know not de day nor de hour when Massa Gad a go call we home. Suh me dear mam, when me see de boot dem pon de verandah, me dis smile to meself. Cause me couldn't help but memba me pickney days when me used to haffi go dung pon me elbow an me two knee fe polish an shine de floor a Satideh mawning time.

An after me done an coulda see me face through de floor. Every Jack Mandora inna de house used to haffi lef dem boot outta door same way. Tek Care!

Dr. Jennifer Keane Dawes is a communications professor and a radio talk show host in the university of Norht carolina system.

Also, from the Gleaner:

Letter of the Day - A plea for Patois

THE EDITOR, Sir:

PATOIS FOR me is a language as it identifies me to others as being Jamaican, something which I take pride in. It is the language I speak to family and friends. It is the language I use to conduct business while in Jamaica and dealing with everyday people.

Ask a merchant downtown if he can make money without allowing his employees and himself to speak patois. The answer would be an overwhelming NO. But sad to say I cannot read it to any extent as I can read the first few lines and then it is back to a first grade reading pace. It is a good move to standardise the language and to teach it.

I do not agree with the Education Ministry's point that it disables a person for advancement as it is the language that is most used and that other islands who speak a similar dialect are moving towards standardisation.

English for the most part is a foreign language to most Jamaicans until they begin school even though we verbally understand it. It is the so-called upper class or educated who have a problem with this as they try to hang on to the vestiges of English and foreign traditions while looking down on anything local as primitive.

The Minister's point of patois as a language being a limiting factor in a person's intellectual development is off-base as many people who show real genius do not even speak English hence English is not a requirement for intellectual development.

It is maybe our failure to accept ourselves for who we are that is the real failure. My last point is, if Patois is not a language of some desired quality why then do foreigners buy our music and have a desire to learn and understand how we speak!

I am etc.,,

CAROL MANLEY LAWTON Jr.

showa88@hotmail.com

Ft Eustis,

Virginia, USA

as for "riddim"....what reasons listed above cybele? curious b/c no one who was arguing against the use of the word "riddim" actually responded to my defenses of it.

I won't write or say "riddim" because, like Stelfox, I would feel ridiculous and would rather explain myself. Also the memories of early 80s UK music press co-option of some bits of Jamaican slang are still raw, seen?

Re: spoken and written English. Er... surely the attempt to precisely replicate a form of spoken English phonetically actually suggests that? Whereas my example indicates that they can co-exist quite happily?

I remain unconvinced that Jamaican is a completely different language, but am not going to argue the point because you clearly have superior knowledge ;) (but xpost N's argument is a good one.)

The Jennifer Keane Dawes extract really shows that it's not necessarily the spelling of patois which makes it 'difficult' for westerners when it's rendered in written form, but the patterns of speech and sentence structure - which would have to remain intact even if the spelling was standardised. And if you used standardised spelling for those sentence structures, it could all wind up looking rather silly. So, on balance, printing patois phonetically = necessary.

N.--Sure, I see what you mean. At the same time, though I felt sorta weird doing it, my attempts at bits and pieces of patois were very much appreciated when I was in Kingston and speaking to people who could pretty much only speak patois (and a titch of English). My statement "Me nah like 'Pump up all Poum Poum'" met with a great deal of laughter. I also remember another well received comment I made (regarding the US's attitude towards the UN) was "Di UN fi get mash up!"

Granted, I WOULD NEVER SPEAK IN THIS WAY IN MONTREAL...that would be so freakin' lame.

Also, why is it sad or perculiar that there is no easy written form? It's just different...Ted Chamberlain (a prof at University of Toronto) has written tons of great stuff on the issue of oral and written cultures.

Still the greatest name for a newspaper ever, I think.

Dave: I'll look for some stuff to mail you...

"From Hand to Mouth: The Post-Colonial Politics of Oral and Written Traditions", Reclaiming Indigenous Voice and Vision, ed. Marie Battiste (Vancouver: University of British Columbia Press, 2000), pp. 124-141

A: "How patronising to assume that the working class aren't able to appreciate Mozart"

B: "How patronising to assume you know better and not allow the working class to enjoy whatever music they want"

-- cybele (noemailatpresen...), August 26th, 2003. (later)"

cybele-
i know you did decide to post in the end,but i just wanted to comment on this,cause i remember you were similarly reluctant to continue posting on the homophobia thread because of an off hand comment someone made,calling your posts "long winded" or something

anyway,i just wanted to encourage you to continue posting-any time i've read your posts here they've been interesting and well informed,and i'm sure a lot of other people would agree

that comment was made by someone who spent more or less that whole thread talking total gibberish from an almost entirely one-sided perspective, so really didn't deserve any heed whatvever...

Having said that, if a book is called 'An Oral History of Reggae' I suppose it's fair enough.

I just think there's a bit of a 'badge of honour' element to it when used outside Jamaica.

My cha-wallah agrees with me, but then he always does.