Deriving Identity From Music

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A great many (most?) people still do this and some would say that it's the foundation of many a genre, even (especially) pop.

Is it wrong that people surround themselves with art, products, people, locations, and fashions, not because these things have intrinsic value but instead are felt to to 'fit' or have use?

Is it wrong only when approaching art? Is all music equivalent with art?

Thoughts?

― Kim (Kim), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 11:25 (twenty-two years ago)

''Is it wrong that people surround themselves with art, products, people, locations, and fashions, not because these things have intrinsic value but instead are felt to to 'fit' or have use?''

art is just another product no?

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 11:54 (twenty-two years ago)

or art is an expression of values, ideas and aspirations with which one identifies or rejects or feels ambivalent about - more a way of examining one's own identity than of defining it

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 12:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Is it wrong that people surround themselves with art, products, people, locations, and fashions, not because these things have intrinsic value but instead are felt to to 'fit' or have use?

kim i don't think i understand how "intrinsic value" is at odds with "having use". can you elaborate?

― mark p (Mark P), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 12:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Im thinking Blow Up here. Or little squigee kids wearing their Black Flag t shirts while rocking their pumas. Must drink coffee first to make thoughts fall in line.
Not at work today Kim?

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 12:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Of course ppl do this, the ones who are too chickenshit for 'drugs' and too socially indoctrinated for fringe religious cults

― dave q, Tuesday, 26 August 2003 13:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes, sorry mark - I'm already hating the way I phrased this question. I think I'm just trying to get people to logically explain the disdain they sometimes show for people who identify with music (product, art, whatever) rather than as a consumer or taking a purely aesthetical approach. It has obvious power, so I'm curious as to why people think it deserves scorn? (this isn't prompted by any specific recent posts)

Noodles - yeah. Check yr email.

― Kim (Kim), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 13:31 (twenty-two years ago)

I think I disdain ppl for that reason because I suspect they are projecting *themselves* onto other stuff whose creation had rilly truly nothing to do with them which seems a particularly monstrous form of solipsism, at least sports fans have the decency to drink themselves into a miserable stupor when their team loses, whereas music fans just mutter "I wish their new album was 'good'(ie 'more suited to *my* tastes)" to which the only answer is "who gives a shit what *you* want, least of all somebody who's got their own reasons for making their fuckin' album"

― dave q, Tuesday, 26 August 2003 13:37 (twenty-two years ago)

so [x] vs. the cult of [x]?

― mark p (Mark P), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 13:41 (twenty-two years ago)

cults are OK because they imply abject submission, it's ppl who put themselves on the same level as the stuff they're consuming that bother me

― dave q, Tuesday, 26 August 2003 13:43 (twenty-two years ago)

What if they don't view themselves as equal but simply separate?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 13:44 (twenty-two years ago)

"it's not the band I hate, it's their fans" etc

― mark p (Mark P), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 13:46 (twenty-two years ago)

I wonder if that's ever reversed! Who adores a band's fans while hating the band?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 13:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Haha how does this work with your dislike of dance music Dave?

Music is such a vast ocean of likes and dislikes and such an omnipresent thing that identity is easily derived from it, even if only in an eye of the beholder way, I think whether one strives to derive identity from the music they like or not, others will do so for them.

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 13:49 (twenty-two years ago)

My only reason for disliking dance music is a history of getting barred from clubs all the time, so it's a case of me feeling 'superior' to that particular music. (cf N Krushchev at Disneyland - "What are you people trying to hide in there, nuclear warheads?")

― dave q, Tuesday, 26 August 2003 13:54 (twenty-two years ago)

kim, if i understand you correctly, your use of "deriving identity" in this instance is meant to apply only to the broadest cases (ie. teenagers who actively tune into a certain artist because he/she helps them assert a certain (disingenuous, faked, etc) identity within society or hipsters who latch onto, say, soul jazz releases for similar status-motivated reasons)

assuming that the antithesis are people whose decisions are purely motivated by personal assessments of quality (can these people even exist? certainly ALL judgements of quality are somewhat affected by the residual mumblings of context), then is it fair to reduce your question down to something like: decisions made in the interest of identity in the public sphere vs. uh, everything else?

― mark p (Mark P), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 14:10 (twenty-two years ago)

I could be wrong, but I've always been under the impression that a lot of people here on ilm claim not to use self-identification in their approach. ?

― Kim (Kim), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 14:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Like, ever. As if it's beneath them.

― Kim (Kim), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 14:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Is this thread some kind of booby trap?

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 14:30 (twenty-two years ago)

crosspost, sorry the answer I was looking for is clearly "YES".

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 14:30 (twenty-two years ago)

i think the distinction is a false one anyway - it's impossible to divorce the two from each other

― mark p (Mark P), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 14:31 (twenty-two years ago)

And ok, maybe I should say social identity instead.

I don't have the know how for such a trap Ronan. It's an honest question.

― Kim (Kim), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 14:32 (twenty-two years ago)

can you repeat the q kim?

― mark p (Mark P), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 14:35 (twenty-two years ago)

How about - why is cliche fandom typically frowned upon as individual weakness of character when it has such obvious power?

― Kim (Kim), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 14:43 (twenty-two years ago)

(ah commas, you and I used to get along so well...)

― Kim (Kim), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 14:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Are we speaking of fans of the product or of the creators? Ppl who live for clubbing seem relatively OK, at the other end of the continuum there's the ppl who want to be inseminated by Michael Jackson

― dave q, Tuesday, 26 August 2003 14:51 (twenty-two years ago)

All three - in the same way as religion I suppose. I wonder about this because in some of these contexts I'm guilty of the condescension myself - despite the fact that I'm probably a complete hypocrite while doing it.

― Kim (Kim), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:06 (twenty-two years ago)

whoops, I meant both.

― Kim (Kim), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Who's willing to admit they listen to certain music so they'll fit in at Ilx?

― ben welsh (benwelsh), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:17 (twenty-two years ago)

who's willing to admit they were thick enough not predict that fucking rubbish surfacing after 5 minutes on this thread?

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Ronan, I didn't mean what I said upthread to sound as passive agressive as it probably did. I'm not a troll.

― Kim (Kim), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:26 (twenty-two years ago)

I can't help but think that nasty comment is directed at me.

― ben welsh (benwelsh), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Don't worry I'm only pretending to think you're a fool.

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:28 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.nvo.com/venturebank/nss-folder/pictures/Feel%20the%20Love.jpg

― ben welsh (benwelsh), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:30 (twenty-two years ago)

No worries Kim, it was a bit of an invitation to some dudes I guess (as we now see) but apologies for assuming it was intentional.

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:32 (twenty-two years ago)

have I been "booby trapped?"

― ben welsh (benwelsh), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:33 (twenty-two years ago)

are you hanging upside down in a net?

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:37 (twenty-two years ago)

What I hate about this argument is that it totally devalues the social aspect of listening to and caring about music. the starting point is that music is being improperly or insincerely "used" if it serves more than a purelyindividual function, as if music was supposed to be some sacrament to be appreciated in private.

I care much more about the people I've met than through interest in music than any of the music itself, thank christ. so maybe i "used" music to find people who cared about the same questions.

It kind of sets up an idealized appreciation of music as direct from the speaker to the soul w/out any mediation which is silly and if put into practice would be lonely and dull.

and i think anybody who is interested enough in hearing other peoples' ideas about music to be here probably feels similarly anyway

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:47 (twenty-two years ago)

but how do those relationships turn out if they are based on something which is so insubstantial in itself? (don't mind me, I'm just ddisgruntled cuz I haven't got any blowjobs lately even tho I'm a gtr player)

― dave q, Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:54 (twenty-two years ago)

the same way that relationships based on work, school, mutual acquaintances, booze or any other insubstantial part of your life turn out - sometimes great, sometimes shit

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 15:57 (twenty-two years ago)

I like your point dave (bj issues notwithstanding). trying to speak on how something insubstantial can be substantial--I think that identity is a function of the connections we make in that it exists (at its core) in a moment, within a context. music is a passageway, a means of making the connection, not the connection itself. if i am making sense, then the evidence for that would be the way that music changes for us over time--in meaning, and experientially.

― elle, Tuesday, 26 August 2003 16:43 (twenty-two years ago)

getting back to kim's (revised) question, which was:

How about - why is cliche fandom typically frowned upon as individual weakness of character when it has such obvious power?

possibly one of the main ballasts here is the notion that 'fandom' brings with it a blinkeredness that inhibits everyday critical appraisal. the subtext to admitting yourself as a hardcore devotee of any single artist is basically "i am so well-nourished by this person's music that i am going to set up camp with them for a while" which marks a sort of intrinsic stopping point, or at very best a sideways promise to keep seeking out good new stuff but only begrudingly, because after all, what could beat [x]?

― mark p (Mark P), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 17:17 (twenty-two years ago)

along cliche fandom usually comes a singleminded dedication that is sorta disconcerting. Can you respect a fan who will like anything a band puts out regardless of its quality?

― ben welsh (benwelsh), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 17:20 (twenty-two years ago)

haha either that or they spend the duration of their fandom seeking out stuff that sounds like [x]

(i am guilty of this)

― mark p (Mark P), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 17:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes! I do that too but you're right about the blinkeredness. I think a more positive spin on the same phenomenon could be called dedication and community. That's got to have as many positives as drawbacks (similar to what fritz said). Perhaps not as much from a critical standpoint, but still..

― Kim (Kim), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 17:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Don't worry about it, Kim. We will all understand if you wear a Genesis T-shirt to the next FAP.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 17:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Hah! I actually have one somewhere you know.

― Kim (Kim), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 17:47 (twenty-two years ago)

the problem with a "community of fans" is that in the end it defines itself as much by what it isn't as by what it is (cf. millions of flame wars between members of, say, radiohead and oasis mailing lists)

― mark p (Mark P), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 17:48 (twenty-two years ago)

have I been "booby trapped?"

Are your boobs now caught in a vise?

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 26 August 2003 21:16 (twenty-two years ago)

the problem with a "community of fans" is that in the end it defines itself as much by what it isn't as by what it is (cf. millions of flame wars between members of, say, radiohead and oasis mailing lists)

...which, i think i was trying to say, begets a sort of blinkeredness in itself.

question: is hardcore fandom generally frowned upon by rockcrits because it's a sort of giving up?

― mark p (Mark P), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 08:19 (twenty-two years ago)

is it frowned on? surely it's more like selectively diagnosed:

i admire [____] despite all, because i am discerning and above the bullshit
vs
you have settled for liking [_________] bcz you are easily duped

― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 08:25 (twenty-two years ago)

(where actually those two more or less overlap)

― mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 08:26 (twenty-two years ago)

it's a form of stamp collecting geekdom which is totally different from the rockcrit type, ie the entire notion of loving a band blindly is too loyal for critics who if they're any good can only call things as they see them. a hardcore fan can like albums before they're ever released, sure maybe a critic can love an idea but at least they have a high minded pretentious reason for doing so rather than the fact that their wall is covered with posters.

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 08:27 (twenty-two years ago)

if that's the case, is this where the idea of "the inevitable backlash" comes from? and does it introduce the possibility that certain bands get slagged with time *not* necessarily because they're doing anything worse, but because it's hardwired in (ie. anything to avoid "too loyal")?

― mark p (Mark P), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 08:34 (twenty-two years ago)

I'd say they get mocked with time because most critics listen to loads of music and basically they're more fickle, the acts in question, your U2s or Radioheads or whoever (slightly unfair to Radiohead but anyway) are never going to drastically change their image, if not their music. Rock acts don't reinvent themselves because their legions of loyal fans permanently halt any major reinvention.

But yeah what you say Mark is true, it is slightly unfair that a band gets mocked like that with time, when really most rock critics (if they're anything like myself) can only realistically handle a few albums from one band before saying enough is enough.

I mean it's not unfair to say that to like more than 2 or 3 albums by a band is as rare as a band making more than 2 or 3 major albums.

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 08:43 (twenty-two years ago)

another tangent, but what acts have really reinvented themselves, I mean REALLY? Image wise and soundwise?

U2 circa Auchtung Baby?

Maybe I was harsh in singling out rock acts, the idea of reinvention is a bit of a chimera anyway, if Radiohead came back sounding like Jeff Mills the world would explode.

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 08:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Primal Scream?

― dave q, Wednesday, 27 August 2003 08:49 (twenty-two years ago)

(Weatherall is no Jeff Mills obv but it did make some people's 'heads explode' at the time)

― dave q, Wednesday, 27 August 2003 08:50 (twenty-two years ago)

ronan i'd say pablo honey -> kid a is pretty drastic

― mark p (Mark P), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 08:54 (twenty-two years ago)

> I wonder if that's ever reversed! Who adores a band's fans while hating the band?

I've known lots of folks who hated the Dead with a passion while most of their friends were Deadheads.

― H (Heruy), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 11:55 (twenty-two years ago)

also in the loving the fans but hating the bands arena could be a lot of straight edge vegan hardcore punk stuff in the mid 90's... most of my friends were in those crowds and at those shows and i know politics and tastes were a bond to a degree. but i know some of us went to the shows but really hated some of the bands.

if the scene unity is transcends the value of the art that night, it didn't matter. often times, the next weekend's show was insane and it sort of validated that aspect of things. but i knew some kids that came out and hated punk the music but loved punk the idea.

so what is the music bound in?
m.

― msp, Wednesday, 27 August 2003 13:39 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah but mark they didn't release kid a directly after pablo honey.

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 27 August 2003 16:17 (twenty-two years ago)

or art is an expression of values, ideas and aspirations with which one identifies or rejects or feels ambivalent about - more a way of examining one's own identity than of defining it

This is why I look like a serial killer ("normal," as they say). Anything, anything can turn me off, be it a piercing, tattoo or even a wide leather watchband (worse yet, wide leather cuffs w/o even the function of holding on a watch), bedhead hair, "hip" body odor, other people's black-rimmed glasses (mine are ok in my book ~_-). And I act like a dork and listen to everything. Any music is acceptable, but as Mr. Show pointed out on Carson last night, becoming the "identity" is fuckin' FAKE!

People can only pin me down as "different," usually, or "dork," which is fine with me.

― Scaredy Cat, Wednesday, 27 August 2003 16:27 (twenty-two years ago)

It is the equivalent of that new harcore rappin' version of "Two All Beef Patties Special Sauce Lettuce Cheese" on that ridiculous new Big Mac commercial. McDonald's ain't any cooler in my book, just fake.

― Scaredy Cat, Wednesday, 27 August 2003 16:32 (twenty-two years ago)

I wouldn't have an identity if it wasn't for music. Therefore, it is classic.

Besides, blowjobs are so last week, it's all teabagging now.

― kate (kate), Thursday, 28 August 2003 08:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Hey, my girlfriend committed to the idea last week after it was mentioned on Sex and The City. I wonder when that's actually going to happen... I like the idea of dunking my balls...

― Natola (Scaredy Cat), Thursday, 28 August 2003 10:37 (twenty-two years ago)

To reply to Fritz' post upthread - contexts in music listening/writing = classic but only if you're being a honest about them. "I like this record because my mates do" is a great reason to like a record, but then talking about the record's amazing musical qualities without mentioning that reason is a cheat, and especially bad faith if you're talking to (eg in print) people who don't have the same mates as you.

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 28 August 2003 12:09 (twenty-two years ago)

interesting point.

my initial reaction is that this is why so much of music criticism is faintly ridiculous - because it doesn't (can't?) address the social aspects of music-listening (but then again that argument sort of twists into the "writing about music is like dancing about architecture" line that has always seemed hollow to me - i mean why not dance about architecture?)

also you can't really take a hardline stance that music should be appreciated as a social phenomenon because there's good solitary music too, and good writing about appreciating music-qua-music by oneself - but maybe i'm just saying that writing about music can't help but over-valuing that way of looking at music because that's what writing does best

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Thursday, 28 August 2003 17:19 (twenty-two years ago)

also I think "i like it cause my mates like it" is just one way that social interaction effects how you feel about music...i LOVE the darkness, the white stripes & andrew wk in no small part because they start arguments not because they make everybody feel PLURy

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Thursday, 28 August 2003 17:29 (twenty-two years ago)

(and conversely to what i was saying above above music-writing tends to {like me} over-value these argument-starters)

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Thursday, 28 August 2003 17:34 (twenty-two years ago)

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