DooWop vs Motown vs Stax/Volt: FITE!

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During a recent bout of insomnia, my brane was assaulted by an infomercial about a multi-DVD set of DooWop reunion tours.
I found myself grooving along with those dust covered oldies, and I started to ask myself: What was bettah? the street corner crooning of DooWop, the meticulously perfect Motown Sound, or the Muscle Shoals sound of Stax/Volt.
In the end, I couldn't come up with a satisfying answer.
LET ILM DISCUSS!

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Monday, 8 September 2003 21:57 (twenty-three years ago)

Motown, doo-wop, Stax. in that order. (haha I'm getting out of this while I'm still in one piece!)

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 8 September 2003 22:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I'll go with the opposite order: Stax, doo-wop, and Motown. Stax was responsible for Memphis soul. Muscle Shoals is in Alabama.

No one in the other 2 categories can beat Otis Redding on Stax.

― Marcus Barr (Marcus Barr), Monday, 8 September 2003 23:19 (twenty-three years ago)

Stax was more consistent (in terms of the quality of B sides and non-hits and minor artists), but Motown hit higher peaks. I love the doo wop, but I'd put it a close third behind Motown and Stax.

― chris herrington (chris herrington), Monday, 8 September 2003 23:25 (twenty-three years ago)

Motown rules. Doo-Wop was boring and Stax/Volt was downright terrible. Motown, on the other hand, managed to come up with some wonderful melodic pop singles.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Monday, 8 September 2003 23:26 (twenty-three years ago)

it's sort of unfair (as are all comparisons, duh) because doo-wop isn't tied to a center the way the other two are--they're specific record labels with specific artistic centers. "doo-wop" means a plethora of artists, labels, regional scenes, etc. so of course the quality varies wildly.

also, Otis Redding is ridiculously overrated (and I like him!)

good old Geir to the rescue cough cough

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 8 September 2003 23:28 (twenty-three years ago)

I actually agree that Redding is a little overrated, and I love him. He was my favorite soul singer in high school, before I came around to Sam Cooke and (especially) Al Green.

Matos -- have you heard much in the way of Stax obscurites? If not, remind me to make you a "best of the rest" mix

― chris herrington (chris herrington), Monday, 8 September 2003 23:32 (twenty-three years ago)

also, Stax technically includes Big Star, which is a way better white band on soul label than Rare Earth.

― chris herrington (chris herrington), Monday, 8 September 2003 23:34 (twenty-three years ago)

haha there are dozens of great white doo-woppers, so doo-wop wins!

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 8 September 2003 23:35 (twenty-three years ago)

top five motown artists better than otis redding:

1) stevie wonder
2) michael jackson
3) the supremes
4) the temptations
5) marvin gaye

we haven't even mentioned kim weston or diana ross. nails in the casket: smokey robinson's "Tears of a Clown"!!! beat that, otis!!

― vahid (vahid), Monday, 8 September 2003 23:36 (twenty-three years ago)

Smokey Robinson was the greatest artists on either label.

― chris herrington (chris herrington), Monday, 8 September 2003 23:38 (twenty-three years ago)

"artists" = "artist"

― chris herrington (chris herrington), Monday, 8 September 2003 23:38 (twenty-three years ago)

on allmusic.com "motown" is a genre unto itself. if you try to type in "stax" as a genre it brings up "Sadcore"

― vahid (vahid), Monday, 8 September 2003 23:40 (twenty-three years ago)

that's probably true, actually! the best all-round talent, certainly--singer, songwriter, producer. (Marvin Gaye was far more erratic and nowhere as prolific, love him too of course even if I think he is overrated as well, which I do.)

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 8 September 2003 23:41 (twenty-three years ago)

marvin gaye is more
overrated than otis.
stax > motown > doo-wop.

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Monday, 8 September 2003 23:47 (twenty-three years ago)

he probably is,
now that you mention it. but
I still like them both.

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 8 September 2003 23:49 (twenty-three years ago)

also, I have a real hard time hearing Stax's sound as exciting--it seems so foursquare and not terribly compelling at this point in history. for whatever reason its exhausted itself to my ears; I'm much more interested in what it became (i.e. Hi, specifically Al Green) or what preceded it (King-style '50s R&B) than the thing itself. maybe in 10 years I'll change my mind, though.

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 8 September 2003 23:54 (twenty-three years ago)

okay marvin has four undeniably classic songs and three essential albums (by my count).

otis has two undeniably classic songs - neither of which he is well-known for performing - and appears in too-tight form on the flabby chests of countless emo kids.

― vahid (vahid), Monday, 8 September 2003 23:56 (twenty-three years ago)

Matos was that a
thinly-veiled crack at my age?
you young bastard you [:-]

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Tuesday, 9 September 2003 00:05 (twenty-three years ago)

don't think of "Stax Sound"
instead listen to it change,
expand and evolve

see, Motown to me
was so much more formula
than you all hear it

whereas in Memphis
it was more communal than
just a Hit Machine

but that's kinda crap
cause I love Stevie, Smokey,
Supremes and the Tops

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Tuesday, 9 September 2003 00:10 (twenty-three years ago)

foursquare? what does that even mean?

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Tuesday, 9 September 2003 02:02 (twenty-three years ago)

I don't even know how old you are Haikunym!

four-square (-'skwer) adj (14c) 1: SQUARE 2: marked by boldness and conviction: FORTHRIGHT < a ~ hero> -- foursquare adv
--Mirriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, Eleventh edition, 2003

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 9 September 2003 03:06 (twenty-three years ago)

also, Otis Redding is ridiculously overrated (and I like him!)

bless you matos, i thought i was the only one who felt this way! (that said, "dock of the bay" is easily my favorite soul single of all time; if only he'd gotten to make more like that...) marvin gaye's material was pretty uneven, but i love his voice so much that i can overlook it most of the time.

the supremes are easily the most overrated 60s girl band ever: the songs are great but diana ross sounds about as sexy as liquid detergent next to someone like darlene love or dusty springfield.

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Tuesday, 9 September 2003 03:55 (twenty-three years ago)

You're not alone there either, Justyn, when it comes to Otis...

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 9 September 2003 04:35 (twenty-three years ago)

oh but justyn d
the supremes' genius lies there
in that paradox:

ross thought she was SEX
but it was the other two
who set shit on fahhrrr

(and the ILM
hivemind ruled that O was o-
verrated last year)*

*a foolish decision that I am completely utterly against

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Tuesday, 9 September 2003 04:39 (twenty-three years ago)

a lot of people feel that way about otis even as they acknowledge that he was one of the greats. even jerry wexler felt otis was often guilty of 'oversouling': trying to fit too many mannerisms and guttural noises etc. into every song. this is most evident on his live recordings which are (often) further hindered by the band playing the hits at double-time (shades of a never-to-be vegas stint?)

i also think something similar of aretha--her vocal stylings can get wearying over the long haul, she goes full throttle much too often. (even as--this should ward off calls for my head--i think she is one of the greats.)

i can't make the choice called for in this thread. i will say though that the first thing that popped into my head when i saw it was, 'i'd toss all three for one al green lp.' (i think in rhymes it seems.)

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 9 September 2003 05:30 (twenty-three years ago)

What devil forces me to choose??

Though I suppose if I had to choose one artist from any of 'em if would be Martha and the Vandellas.

― ham on rye (ham on rye), Tuesday, 9 September 2003 05:56 (twenty-three years ago)

Stax is way more fun than Motown. Think Rufus Thomas, y'know? And Wendy Rene's "I Love Barbecue" justifies the entire output of the label. DooWop is way too broad a term, I think...you including Hank Ballard, the 5 Royales, (early) Andre Williams, the Cadillacs, etc? Then "DooWop" has gotta win. The most fun.

― pauls00, Tuesday, 9 September 2003 11:32 (twenty-three years ago)

Agreed. This is a silly question.

― Larcole (Nicole), Tuesday, 9 September 2003 11:36 (twenty-three years ago)

"I Love Barbecue"? that's the worst thing on the s/v box.

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 9 September 2003 16:41 (twenty-three years ago)

oh no my friend am
it's the funnest song therein--
all that background noise!

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Tuesday, 9 September 2003 16:52 (twenty-three years ago)

no, the worst thing on the s/v box are the Nick Charles songs. "I Love Barbecue" is beautiful.

― pauls00, Tuesday, 9 September 2003 16:58 (twenty-three years ago)

ha ha yeah nick charles
'the dogwood tree' probably
the worst song EVER made

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Tuesday, 9 September 2003 17:16 (twenty-three years ago)

Stax, then doo-wop, then Motown, a distant third for me though I still love it.

Most overrated artist pertinent to this discussion: Stevie Wonder.

― Burr (Burr), Tuesday, 9 September 2003 21:41 (twenty-three years ago)

Haikunym, my insensitivity to "fun" is well-known thus it's understandable that to me "I Love Barbeque" would be the worst song on the box set.

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 9 September 2003 22:19 (twenty-three years ago)

Burr not OTM,
Stevie Wonder rated right,
true genius (if flawed)

and amateurist
I wish that you liked the fun
the world needs more fun

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Wednesday, 10 September 2003 04:29 (twenty-three years ago)

oh yes, the supremes are very overrated. i mean besides "baby love" and "love child" and "stop! in the name of love" and "you keep me hanging on" and "you can't hurry love" what did they really do anyway? only about a dozen #1 singles, that's what. yeah, and i'm so sure you'd rather sing "chained and bound" at the karaoke than "love child".

― vahid (vahid), Wednesday, 10 September 2003 06:49 (twenty-three years ago)

i'd like to be the backup karaoke singer on that one so i could yell "tenement slum! tenement slum!"

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 10 September 2003 07:07 (twenty-three years ago)

Stevie Wonder is the greatest African American songwriter ever.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 10 September 2003 09:15 (twenty-three years ago)

If I could pull it off, I'd a million times rather sing "Chained and Bound" at Karaoke than "Love Child."

― Burr (Burr), Wednesday, 10 September 2003 15:47 (twenty-three years ago)

"Stevie Wonder is the greatest African American songwriter ever."

Except for Sam Cooke, Chuck Berry, Otis Redding, Curtis Mayfield, Al Green, Thelonius Monk, Ted Hawkins, Bo Diddley, Holland-Dozier-Holland, James Brown, Smokey Robinson, Fats Domino, Sly Stone, Thomas Dorsey, Prince . . .

― Burr (Burr), Wednesday, 10 September 2003 16:32 (twenty-three years ago)

...Marvin Gaye, Holland-Dozier-Holland, Bob Marley, Michael Jackson (in his prime, people. in his prime), George Clinton....

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Wednesday, 10 September 2003 18:33 (twenty-three years ago)

since when is Bob Marley African American?

― getacluecustos, Wednesday, 10 September 2003 18:42 (twenty-three years ago)

bob marley spent years
as a child in USA
so no but still yes

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Wednesday, 10 September 2003 19:46 (twenty-three years ago)

None of those (although several of them are great songwriters) have ever come close to creating such wonderful and highly melodic and harmonic songs as "You And I", "Blame It On The Sun", "I Believe (When I Fall In Love It Will Be Forever)", "They Won't Go When I Go", "Too Shy To Say", "Smile Please", "Joy Inside My Tears", "Love's In Need Of Love Today" or "Pastime Paradise".

At his best (which was particularly the melodic ballads he made during his 70s heyday), Stevie Wonder was almost as great as Paul McCartney, Neil Finn and other legendary songsmiths.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 10 September 2003 21:48 (twenty-three years ago)

Stevie Wonder beats
Neil Finn deaf dumb and blind
without even trying

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Wednesday, 10 September 2003 23:14 (twenty-three years ago)

Neil Finn is the greatest musical genius since Paul McCartney, who in turn was the greatest musical genius since Brahms.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 10 September 2003 23:19 (twenty-three years ago)

Ladies, gentlemen,
the prosecution here rests.
I can say no more.

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Wednesday, 10 September 2003 23:24 (twenty-three years ago)

burr + custos, off your list(s) i'm going to accept chuck berry, tommy dorsey, prince and holland-dozier-holland.

monk is obviously a god but i've listened to "epistrophy" and "ruby, my dear" like 5000 times but i'm hard pressed to hum them (though i can quite distinctly imagine the rhythm of his playing if that makes any sense).

michael jackson + quincy jones > stevie OKAY fine.

sly is probably as good but stevie has him beat on longevity, george clinton and james brown yeah whatever they expanded the vocabulary of the art form whatever but where are the tunes, man, where are the tunes???

― vahid (vahid), Wednesday, 10 September 2003 23:27 (twenty-three years ago)

al green is a tough one to beat, too. for me it boils down to the fact that listening to al green is like listening to cypress hill or something, the textures and moods and sound is spot-on and contemporary and lovely. but then i can listen to stuff like "sir duke" (and even get into it) even though it's quite obviously composed of the tackiest, cheesiest sounds ever. so that's gotta be the songwriting, or just a radiant personality, or something.

― vahid (vahid), Wednesday, 10 September 2003 23:30 (twenty-three years ago)

what about w.c. handy, richard m. jones, duke ellington, thomas a. dorsey, etc etc etc etc?

― amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 11 September 2003 01:07 (twenty-three years ago)

w.c. handy i think is the same case as otis redding. okay you can can claim that he fostered a scene that eventually became massive. but can you really place the credit for al green's accomplishments on otis redding's shoulders? would the blues never have made it out of the field if it hadn't been for handy? the question shouldn't really be "what did other musicians do with the conditions that redding/handy helped create?" but "what did redding/handy do in the conditions they existed in (that other before them created)?" obviously in both cases they did great things but not things that stick out head and shoulders above their contemporaries.

― vahid (vahid), Thursday, 11 September 2003 01:34 (twenty-three years ago)

all i'm saying is that w.c. handy was a great songwriter, is all i'm saying.

― amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 11 September 2003 04:19 (twenty-three years ago)

i mean jesus christ he wrote "st. louis blues"!

― amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 11 September 2003 04:19 (twenty-three years ago)

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