Defend the Indefensible: Nick Drake

(translation: wtf with this thread?)

sometimes the string arrangements get in the way but they can be very gorgeous at times ("hazy jane 1"). he was not afraid to experiment, even if it did mean falling flat ("poor boy").

concentrating on the richness of bryter layter and the stark desolation of pink moon alone, i find very few faults/missteps on these two records. and he was certainly better than 80% of the accoustic folk rock at the time. his first album is my least favorite; however, it must have caught the ears of both richard thompson and john cale who play on his second record... and their opinions/respect is worth more to me than anyone on ILM frankly.

tunage = open mic night snoozefest. intricate fingerpicking + really inventive tunings = noodling.

voice = a sustained exercise in counterfeit timidity

he did have good suits.

I'm not sure he fits into the "Defend the Indefensible" category. That's more for people like, ummm...., the Fixx or Sugar Ray or Raffi, Master of the Pan Flute. You may not like Nick Drake, but there's an awful lot of people who do (and not in a "guilty pleasure" sort've way that caters to "Defend the Indefensible" threads).

I've been noticing a lot of Drake-hatred here lately (well, this thread and Chuck Eddy, who believes mop-head metal also-rans Kix are more tuneful than the late Mr.Drake). Personally, while his is definetely 'mood music' (if you're not in the mood for it, you'd best steer well clear of it), I find it pretty strikingly emotive, atmospheric and quite lovely. I can't understand what people could find to hate about it. I can see people tiring of cult of prescient doom that has sprung up around Drake, but I believe his music would still be quite moving even if he hadn't prematurely shuffled off this mortal coil (though that fact does make tracks like "Black Eyed Dog" that much more chilling).

His guitar playing was quite interesting too.

So basically, no one's made a defense in terms you would accept.

and how is pointing out the "gigantic fan bases/undeniable influence/inherent longevity/etc." of Sugar Ray any different than pointing out the "gigantic fan bases/undeniable influence/inherent longevity/etc." of nick drake?

Besides the fact that Nick Drake's stuff has been around longer than Sugar Ray's there isn't any difference. I'm not sure what you're trying to catch me on here, especially since I wasn't the one who used Sugar Ray as a DtD candidate.

The point is that if there's general critical acclaim for an artist (as there is for BOTH Sugar Ray and Nick Drake), they are not good candidates for a DtD thread because there's already a defense that everyone knows about. The entire premise is "Most people think this musician/band suck(s); tell me why most people are wrong." How does Nick Drake fit into that?

it's not that i don't accept it, it's just that I'm sure people have more to point to than his guitartistry & general well-likedness (& in fairness some people have pointed out lyrics and instrumental breaks & mood stuff that they like - which makes more sense to me)

The entire premise is "Most people think this musician/band suck(s); tell me why most people are wrong." How does Nick Drake fit into that?

fine, how is: 'I think he sucks, tell me why I'm wrong' then? am i allowed to ask that?

since when is general consensus & 'we hold these truths to be self-evident' logic such an important factor to take into consideration on ILM?

*the defense will now take a 15minute coffee break

- He didn't allow Chris DeBerg to be in his band in high school. Thanks fucking god.

No.

since when is general consensus & 'we hold these truths to be self-evident' logic such an important factor to take into consideration on ILM?

Ignoring the fact that the entire point behind these threads is to go against general consensus, have you not read any ILM posts in the past 18 months?

It's not an important factor to consider in the context of ILM per se, only in the context of a Defend the Indefensible thread. Maybe you should have worded the thread title differently. In any case, his music is lovely.

If you hate Nick Drake, you hate little Baby Jesus.

For my part, I'd first been exposed to Drake through mp3s (Pink Moon came first), which lead to burning a copy of Way Beyond Blue off of friends. The first thing that struck me about his music was that the melodies are soothing to the ear and the nerves after a rough day. The second thing was that his lyrics spoke of pain and loss long before it became fashionable to be a solo songwriter.

Great Nick Drake songs: Road, Which Will, Northern Sky. WTF is up with this thread? He doesn't need to be defended, he's one of the greats, even without going into the guitar playing.

Zuh?

There was no counterfeit timidity about Nick Drake, he was painfully shy and withdrawn according to all accounts. His sister said he had a skin too few (hence the title of a biography). So no counterfeitedness about his timidity at all. Furthermore I've heard recordings of his voice and that's what he sounds like, he has a very posh, gentle, fey accent.

So there's a start of a defence. At least a knocking down of one teh straw men raised.

Yeah, right

His best album, I'd say, is easily Bryter Layter because the sad/beautiful characteristics within both the lyrics and the music are strongest and most pronounced there. "What will happen in the morning when the world it gets so crowded that you can't look out the window in the morning?" is one of my favorite lyrics ever, though perhaps it sounds a bit silly on paper.

sorry people feel that way - but i am in fact interested in just that... and lots of people have done so with panache.

i can tell people are irked, but i still think its a worthwhile discussion to have. "good taste" is subjective anyway so I don't see how 'indefensible' is more offensive when applied to card-carrying canon-fodder than it is to artists that are generally seen as having no worth.

Davey Graham, Judee Sill = heroin addicts. I don't know if that's significant. I did see Davey Graham live once and he was pretty much out of it on something or other.

I've never listened to Sill, will remedy that today.

you are in for a treat.

Oh man I wish I could listen to Sill for the first time again

apropos of everything:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4tSxbYhUwc

insert embeds of "song to the siren", "the hammond song" & "the porpoise song"

oh wow the Sill album (the debut) was incredible, thank you all!

<3

I’ve always thought of Vashti as being similar to Nick but her songs come from a stable gorgeous place of plaintive optimism; almost certainly folk music.

When I saw her interviewed in Edinburgh after her book was published she said she always resented being pigeonholed as folk. She thought of herself as a songwriter.

Hearing Sill's "Jesus was a Cross Maker" on the radio was one of maybe a half dozen times I had to pull the car over just to listen.

I was walking around listening to the album on my headphones, and on "Cross Maker" I felt a strong urge to sing along with the chorus even though it was the first time ever hearing it, an extremely unusual response for me

oh wow the Sill album (the debut) was incredible, thank you all!

― rob, Monday, 18 August 2025 20:35 (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

Don't sleep on Heart Food either - that one destroys me

will definitely do that once I've given the debut a few more listens!

"The Kiss" is her greatest song.

Big fan of "The Donor" too.

Nick Lowe lifted a bit of Jesus Was A Crossmaker’s chorus for What’s So Funny About Peace Love and Understanding, the “woah, woah” inbetween the repeated phrase.

I love Nick and Vashti but Judee is a whole ‘nother level for me. “The Donor” is just fuuuuuuuuucking hell wtf GIVE ME MORE OF THAT PLEASE

"The Kiss" is her greatest song.

― AI Jardine (Tom D.), Tuesday, August 19, 2025 3:45 PM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

this performance moves me tremendously every time i watch it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0feFedDW_iQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-YWVGJIHcs

Ya that’s the Judee video. I’ve played that song a couple times, it’s a 10/10 challenge— not only is the melody hopping up and down octave intervals like it’s nothing, but you have to gently attend to the tempo and keep it exactly right— too fast and the words get crowded, too slow and you won’t have the lung capacity to sing it right.

I love how she pronounces ‘whisper’ and ‘where’ like a schoolteacher

Also:

Stars bursting in the sky
Hear the sad nova’s dying cry
Shimmering melody, come and hold me
While you show me how to fly

^ this lyric marks the end of the earth in terms of my personal tolerance for Laurel Canyon hippie bullshit— it’s beautiful but it’s one crystal vision away from being a groaner

Listening to the Turtles' version of "Lady-O", I can't help but think it's a pity Howard Kaylan ended up wasting his time singing for Zappa shortly after it.

I found the Pitchfork review of the new stripped down version of Five Leaves kind of odd, was written from the perspective that seemed to suggest that it was widely considered overproduced (writer seemed to have a particular aversion to congas) but I never felt that way and I don't know anyone who did. To me, that was how the record was and how I fell in love with it.

Here is something beautiful

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsxeL-59GbM

xp yeah it was discussed upthread or in another drake thread but apparently... it was received 90s cool kid/rockist/record collector wisdom that 5ll was overproduced. p4k review my first exposure to this old school view

the judee sill song that crushes me the most is the home recording of emerald river dance

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVs4FRBZnRE

I’ve played (The Kiss) song a couple times, it’s a 10/10 challenge— not only is the melody hopping up and down octave intervals like it’s nothing, but you have to gently attend to the tempo and keep it exactly right— too fast and the words get crowded, too slow and you won’t have the lung capacity to sing it right.

Yup, I've tried covering it on the guitar and had exactly the same issue with the lyrics. Like you say, fgti, it feels so easy-breezy and gently sung but you get these syllable clusters that are so carefully placed you can get turned-round very quickly and ruin it.

this lyric marks the end of the earth in terms of my personal tolerance for Laurel Canyon hippie bullshit— it’s beautiful but it’s one crystal vision away from being a groaner

Yup. There's a distinct difference between Judee Sill's lyrics and those of her laziest close-comparison Joni Mitchell. While Joni wasn't averse to imagery, she was way too grounded to deign towards such quasi-religious flights of fancy.

Judee's writing is notably submissive, with no trace of the cynicism that steams out of Joni's work. There are no Coyotes in Judee Sill's songs - ('Soldier Of The Heart', 'My Man On Love', 'The Archetypal Man', 'The Vigilante', many more) describe an idealised and pedestalised man. These sound like love songs to a fictionalised partner - a rugged and intrepid figure with a strong paternal instinct.

It would be foolish to read too much into Sill's psyche based on her songwriting. But I wonder if this might explain a bit about how this mousy and bookish person could have been manipulated into a life of drugs, robbery and other crime.

Who knows. I just think it's interesting to hear such plainly-dressed and positive tributes to men (real or imagined) without a sceptical twist to the story.

I guess this is the Judee Sill thread now oh well. Poor Nick

Henceforth in my mind Nick Drake will always be Poor Nick. Based on this thread and talk about english folky types, I picked up a 3cd Sandy Denny set. Have only just started in and it’s good!

I think Bright Phoebus is my favorite thing in this vein. What other vaguely spooky english folk is out there?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Fox

Comus possibly too spooky to be vaguely spooky?

There's a lot of spooky traditional songs out there tbf

I call this stuff wicker-man music but I may have picked that up somewhere or even here.

It happens a few times on Bright Phoebus. Drake’s “Parasite” does it. They don’t go into horror or goth territory but there’s a queasiness there, a feeling that there’s something awful just out of frame.

Henceforth in my mind Nick Drake will always be Poor Nick

His mother wrote a song called Poor Mum, in response to his Poor Boy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-UaQvsJWXw

there's something very unsettling about Comus

in the best possible way

Oh man, the fiddle breakdown bit on "First Utterance" is pretty good.

i'd never listened to Comus before. It's right up my street.

so good

so who's going to be the first itt to write some spicy Judee/Nick slashfic?

Ask the guy from Comus to do it

BTW if anyone reading this thread hasn't listened to Andrew Hickey's The History of Rock in 500 Songs podcast episodes about Nick Drake's "Fruit Tree" and Fairport Convention's "Who Knows Where The Time Goes", then go check them out now please

will never skip an opportunity to plug this book which is extremely relevant to the current discussion, one of my favorite music books ever

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2010/aug/07/electric-eden-folk-rob-young

i've had that sitting on my shelf for the best part of ten years. i'll dig it out

it really is a great book!

oddly enough, even though on paper I should love 'em, I've never really liked Comus — a little too theatrical for my taste?

It's a fascinating book that doesn't just start at the hippie era but goes back to the roots of English pastoralism. The stories about early 20th century composers and folklorists are as interesting as those from the 60s, and less familiar.

Joe Boyd's "White Bicycles" is another great book about this scene (and more)

I need to read that

xxpost there's a gothyness to comus for sure

I haven't heard Comus in years but I remember wondering why people call it folk when it's really just prog with a lot of acoustic instrumentation. I also remember thinking it was a bit like Family without the tunes and then I found out that their second album was actually produced by Roger Chapman!

Yes to the Boyd and Young books. Young, in particular, is pretty relentless in digging up and reviewing all manner of obscurities, and he covers lots of eldritch films and TV as well. David Keenan's *England's Hidden Reverse* explores similar-ish stuff, but instead of Drake and Sandy, it revolves around Coil and Current 93.

Ian Macdonald's essay on Nick Drake in *The People's Music* is great, too.

Stumbled across this old quote from Barney Hoskyns about Judee Sill earlier: "My contention is this: had she been male and as pretty as Nick Drake, Sill would now be as big a cult figure as St. Nick himself"

https://www.theguardian.com/observer/omm/story/0,13887,1369079,00.html