What songs and albums are clearly influenced by Van Dyke Parks's Song Cycle?

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I've started this thread because I am very pleased with the positive reaction to my recommendation of Song Cycle in Phil Dokes's "What album should be next??" thread.

Jim O'Rourke has referred to Song Cycle as his Holy Grail, but I haven't heard much of O'Rourke's solo work. Where is this influence most evident?

I strongly suspect that Avey Tare & Panda Bear are familiar with the album. Some of the swirly production and oddly paced vocals on Spirit They’re Gone, Spirit They’ve Vanished bring Song Cycle to mind.

Also, the first time I heard something by Dose One and Boom Bip I was strangely reminded of Parks's masterpiece.

― Marcus Barr (Marcus Barr), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 03:19 (twenty-two years ago)

jim o'rourke - eureka
high llamas - gideon gaye
randy newman - 12 songs + sail away
brian eno - taking tiger mtn. by strategy (not really but sometimes i think about the two in tandem)

― gygax! (gygax!), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 03:28 (twenty-two years ago)

rufus wainwright's debut

― Annouschka Magnatech (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 03:35 (twenty-two years ago)

everything with an emphasis on orchestration over songwriting

― the surface noise (electricsound), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 03:38 (twenty-two years ago)

(hello high llamas)

― the surface noise (electricsound), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 03:38 (twenty-two years ago)

i love Song Cycle soooooooooo much

― JasonD (JasonD), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 03:44 (twenty-two years ago)

what about the beach boys albums he worked on (was it just smile?)

― JasonD (JasonD), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 03:44 (twenty-two years ago)

also see: biff rose's early albums

― Annouschka Magnatech (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 03:45 (twenty-two years ago)

wasn't parks' involvement in smile solely as a lyricist?

― Annouschka Magnatech (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 03:46 (twenty-two years ago)

also see: todd rundgren's a wizard, a true star

― Annouschka Magnatech (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 03:49 (twenty-two years ago)

listening to it right now... "Widow's Walk" alone ingests Charles Ives and generates The Damned's "Grimly Fiendish" and Pink Floyd's "Atom Heart Mother"

― Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 04:13 (twenty-two years ago)

momus is influenced by this album... he just doesn't know it.

― Annouschka Magnatech (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 04:16 (twenty-two years ago)

wasn't parks' involvement in smile solely as a lyricist?

well then, he clearly had an influence on it ;-)

― JasonD (JasonD), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 04:22 (twenty-two years ago)

until mike love got involved...

"DON'T FUCK WITH THE FORMULA!!!"

― gygax! (gygax!), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 04:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Thanks for all the great leads, especially Biff Rose. Can't wait to get a hold of some of his stuff.

"everything with an emphasis on orchestration over songwriting"

I see where you're coming from with this to an extent, but do you feel the orchestration supersedes the songwriting on Song Cycle? I don't. Show your love or hate for your fellow Melbourner, Phil Judd. (See my thread:)

"wasn't parks' involvement in smile solely as a lyricist?"

Yes, but some of the arrangement ideas, the instrumentation, and Americana flourishes have Parks's stamp on them.

"momus is influenced by this album... he just doesn't know it."

I agree, and Momus's Holy Grail is The Incredible String Band's The Hangman's Beautiful Daughter, but he doesn't know it yet.

― Marcus Barr (Marcus Barr), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 04:38 (twenty-two years ago)

I agree that traces of Parks linger in Jim O'Rourke and the High Llamas -- the off-kilter lyrics, the tendency toward orchestration -- but I have a hard time embracing Song Cycle as strongly as I do those bands (who I love), since it seems much more obtuse and abrupt (or at least restless).

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 06:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Discover America is one of my favourite ever records but I've always had a harder time with Song Cycle: there are moments of extreme prettiness there but the whole thing seems written in code, an extended in-joke for Parks' songwriting mates. It's a remarkably dense album but a difficult one to love.

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 07:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, a potential influencee - Richard Harris' two Jimmy Webb-written albums, A Tramp Shining and The Yard Went On Forever.

― Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 07:42 (twenty-two years ago)

I love the album but I can't see that it has ever influenced anyone other than Jim O'Rourke. Someone mentioned Randy Newman's "12 Songs" and "Sail Away" but that's nonsense - you could just as easily argue that Randy Newman influenced Van Dyke Parks and "12 Songs" is the least VDP-like album of Randy Newman's entire career.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 10:37 (twenty-two years ago)

...by the way, you might want to check out "Montana Song" by David Ackles

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 10:47 (twenty-two years ago)

best david ackles is 'inmates of the institution'

― charltonlido (gareth), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 11:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh no no no! I hate that track, it has to be "Montana Song"!!!!!!!!

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 11:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Elvis Costello's new one, North, strikes me as a third-rate VDP copyist (it's def costello's worst album, even more than goodbye crule world)

― Chuck Tatum (Chuck Tatum), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 14:41 (twenty-two years ago)

The O'Rourke rec that sounds closest to Song Cycle is 'Camofleur' by Gastr Del Sol: in some ways David Grubbs has more in common w/ VDP as a lyricist and songwriter than O'Rourke does.

― Andrew L (Andrew L), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 18:54 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah actually I think Dave is more into VDP than Jim. At least that's what Jim once claimed to me (but why take the artist's word for it?).

― hstencil, Tuesday, 7 October 2003 19:04 (twenty-two years ago)

"12 Songs" is the least VDP-like album of Randy Newman's entire career

agreed... I think maybe people are thinking of newman's debut which was produced by parks

I respect parks but would never listen to it for fun, it feels like doing one of those really hard cryptic crossword puzzles or something - way too much work for the pay-off. i can see how song-writery types would dig it more for the same reasons

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 19:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, except Jim has also gone on record as saying Song Cycle is the "greatest album ever made."

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 20:12 (twenty-two years ago)

(that was to Hstencil)

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 20:13 (twenty-two years ago)

jaymc I wasn't saying he doesn't like that record, a lot, just that he's not over-the-board a VDP fanatic.

I respect parks but would never listen to it for fun, it feels like doing one of those really hard cryptic crossword puzzles or something.

Heh, last time I listened to it, it was a Sunday and I was doing the Times crossword (which is also fun!).

― hstencil, Tuesday, 7 October 2003 20:24 (twenty-two years ago)

sometimes reading ILM is like listening to the talking Barbie (i.e. "Math is hard!").

― hstencil, Tuesday, 7 October 2003 20:27 (twenty-two years ago)

being smarter than me is no big feat, don't get too impressed with yourself

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 20:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Has no-one mentioned Bob Drake yet? His album "The Skull Mailbox" is like "Song Cycle"'s evil twin.

― dog latin (dog latin), Tuesday, 7 October 2003 21:12 (twenty-two years ago)

For reasons entirely unrelated to this thread or its subject, I just ran a Google search on the Mexican Pavilion at the 1964-65 World's Fair, and came across this tidbit:

"1962 found [Van Dyke] Parks and his older brother, Carson, playing guitar, raquinto and Indian harp in various California coffee houses. (He became proficient enough on raquinto to subsequently perform with Los Tres Ases at the Mexican Pavilion at the 1964-65 World's Fair in New York.)

"'I was playing boleros--Mexican love songs from the '30s and '40s. All the girls looked like Rickie Lee Jones. They wore fishnet stockings. We were discussing Marx and the Industrial Revolution.' (VDP, e-mail to the author, 3.27.97)"

― Annouschka Magnatech (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 8 October 2003 01:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Of course, diligent viewers of BBC Television would have caught an early appearance by Van Dyke Parks in a "Heidi" film that was on recently - he played her best friend Peter, must have been about 12 or 13 I'd guess, he was a cute boy but not much of an actor.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Wednesday, 8 October 2003 10:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, a potential influencee - Richard Harris' two Jimmy Webb-written albums, A Tramp Shining and The Yard Went On Forever.

Yup, yup, yup Tom.

Also, I get the VDP feeling on listening to stuff like DJ Shadow or Kid Koala. In that I am pretty certain VDP would be layering piles of samples if he was born later - its that onion-like feeling I get listening to Song Cycle, peel off a layer of Mahler and you'll get Woody Guthrie and Dylan and then earlier Beach Boys then Bernard Herrman etc etc etc.

Although this might be because I've been reviewing Kid Koala's new one today...

― Jim Robinson (Original Miscreant), Wednesday, 8 October 2003 19:01 (twenty-two years ago)

What abt Harry Nilsson?

― Andrew L (Andrew L), Wednesday, 8 October 2003 19:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Dadaismus,

You realize he's done quite a bit of acting in his life right?

― gygax! (gygax!), Wednesday, 8 October 2003 21:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, he was in the "Two Jakes" wasn't he? Harry Nilsson/ Randy Newman/ Van Dyke Parks were definitely some kind of trimuvirate in the late 60s before Harry discovered Brandy Alexanders and VDP discovered calypso

― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 9 October 2003 09:48 (twenty-two years ago)

this is quite interesting, as they do 'sample' "Canto a Veracruz" for Song Cycle.

― beta, Thursday, 9 October 2003 12:58 (twenty-two years ago)

... this is only interesting if you are a Parks/Newman/Nilsson geek - and as a Parks/Newman/Nilsson geek I can confirm that this is indeed interesting

― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 9 October 2003 13:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Didn't VDP also do the music to The Two Jakes?

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Thursday, 9 October 2003 20:24 (twenty-two years ago)

While we're at it, what's everyone's favorite VDP record?

― Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Thursday, 9 October 2003 20:25 (twenty-two years ago)

one month passes...

i only own 'song cycle', but i'd definitely like to know more about him and his production. by the way, thanks jody for the excellent link above!

― joan vich (joan vich), Thursday, 20 November 2003 13:27 (twenty-two years ago)

While we're at it, what's everyone's favorite VDP record?

In order:

1. Song Cycle
2. Discover America
3. Jump!
4. Tokyo Rose
5. Clang of the Yankee Reaper
6. Orange Crate Art

Actually, only the first two are essential. Didn't he do a live album recently?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 20 November 2003 13:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Best thing VDP ever did: his arrangement for "Crucifixion" by Phil Ochs.

― Marcello Carlin, Thursday, 20 November 2003 13:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Has no-one mentioned Bob Drake yet? His album "The Skull Mailbox" is like "Song Cycle"'s evil twin.

Wow, I was just about to post this, I can't believe someone else did.

― dleone (dleone), Thursday, 20 November 2003 13:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Wasn't that Joe Byrd, Marcello? I think it was.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 20 November 2003 13:42 (twenty-two years ago)

...or maybe Joe Byrd just contributed the weird noises?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 20 November 2003 13:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Hmm, could be, but VDP's still credited with the orchestral arrangements (on my copy at least). At least it wasn't the mysterious jazzfunk/psych crossover that was Donald Byrd and the Field Hippies as mentioned on "Kemi Kally"'s sleevenote to the White Noise album.

― Marcello Carlin, Thursday, 20 November 2003 13:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Donald and Joe should have formed a group and called themselves The Byrds.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 20 November 2003 13:55 (twenty-two years ago)

The second Ben Folds album.

― Jay Kid (Jay K), Thursday, 20 November 2003 13:59 (twenty-two years ago)

while Song Cycle and Discover America! are excellent sound studies in their own right (Americana and pan-Carribean, put simply), i highly recommend the Phil Ochs album he produced called "Greatest Hits" (ha, he had none). a bizarre "country" album with Gene Parsons, Clarence White, Chris Etheridge, Ryland Cooder.

― Beta (abeta), Thursday, 20 November 2003 15:07 (twenty-two years ago)

i've always thought o'rourke's greatest debt to vdp was in his appearance.

i somewhat prefer "discover america" but i love them both - total masterpieces.

and my favorite david ackles song is the one about the veteran who gives pornography to children at the candy store. amazing.

― j fail (cenotaph), Thursday, 20 November 2003 17:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Wow - I never knew that Greatest Hits by Ochs actually consisted of all new material! Thanks for the pointer, Beta. And to think I consider myself an Ochs fan; I've got all of his other albums (even including Carnegie Hall). I guess I always just passed over that one without looking at it.

You learn something new every day.

― Broheems (diamond), Thursday, 20 November 2003 18:16 (twenty-two years ago)

one year passes...

This album is cuckoo.

Teh only songs on it that I feel like listening to right now though are "Palm Desert" and "Laurel Canyon."

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Monday, 14 March 2005 07:55 (twenty years ago)

I prefer "Song Cycle". Somewhat "cuckoo", yes, but still a fascinating listen in a lot of ways. "Discover America" seems to have some of the same interesting harmonic stuff going on, but the steelband arrangements feel a bit alienating in the long run.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Monday, 14 March 2005 10:53 (twenty years ago)

fucking weird, i was gonna revive this thread today also.

i HATED this album the first few times i heard it, and then one day it just clicked, and now i absolutely adore it.

my question: are there any other VDP albums worth checking out?

― The JaXoN 5 (JasonD), Monday, 14 March 2005 17:53 (twenty years ago)

The double-tracking and vibrato on his voice on "Palm Desert" is totally PSYCHO.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Monday, 14 March 2005 19:04 (twenty years ago)

I like "Discover America." I haven't heard "Song Cycle" in many years. I don't know much about David Ackles, I have a few tunes on mix CDs friends have made me. I am not sure how you can talk about the "influence" of that record--I'm not saying it didn't influence people but I don't know how, specifically, you could say it did. I'm just wondering if it's more a case of modern artists doing that orchestrated thing that they have this gestalt-idea of "orchestrated weird late-'60s pop" like the first Randy Newman album, those Richard Harris things, Al DeLory and Glen Campbell, etc. Or Nilsson stuff too, and I guess the Beach Boys, obviously.

― edd s hurt (ddduncan), Tuesday, 15 March 2005 02:26 (twenty years ago)

what's so alienating about steel drums? oh right, it's geir, nevermind.

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 15 March 2005 06:37 (twenty years ago)

I used to prefer "Song Cycle" to "Discover America" by a wide margin, but now I've flip flopped and it's definitely all about "Discover America"- on our last tour we played it before every show we did as the intermission music and it just puts you into a completely specific mood that nothing else quite sets up- so good!

― Drew Daniel (Drew Daniel), Tuesday, 15 March 2005 07:19 (twenty years ago)

two years pass...

Revive!

As there doesn't seem to be a general SONG CYCLE thread, I'll ask it here: Does anybody know what is with that murky hillbilly bluegrass tune at the very beginning? Is it a sample or not? What about the "Nearer My God To Thee" bit?

― Mr. Snrub, Saturday, 24 March 2007 00:50 (eighteen years ago)

I guess this is the point where I point out a recent and very obvious example:
Joanna Newsom - Ys
She apparently enlisted Van Dyke solely because she loved Song Cycle so much, without realizing that he had done anything else since then.

― Moodles, Saturday, 24 March 2007 03:05 (eighteen years ago)

Does anybody know what is with that murky hillbilly bluegrass tune at the very beginning?

Isn't that Steve Young? I imagine he was hired by VDP to play that bit.

― Tom D., Saturday, 24 March 2007 12:03 (eighteen years ago)

Steve Young? Wow. I never made the connection.

I interviewed Parks last year, and we talked a little bit about Song Cycle. According to him, critics never picked up on the fact that the record is less an avant-pop statement and more of a personal, singer-songwriter affair. According to Parks, the record is literally a song cycle about him coming to terms with his brother's death.

― QuantumNoise, Saturday, 24 March 2007 13:44 (eighteen years ago)

According to Parks, the record is literally a song cycle about him coming to terms with his brother's death.

I don't doubt this to be true, but I would never have figured that out from listening to the album.

― Moodles, Saturday, 24 March 2007 16:04 (eighteen years ago)

when i listen to velvet hammer in a cowboy band by red rhodes i think of song cycle. mostly cuz it's such a strange and slippery take on country, olde-tymey, bluegrass, americana. it is NOT normal. velvet hammer came out on mike nesmith's label and red played on all of mike's equally hard-to-categorize solo albums. red also played on song cycle, so that's another reason why i think of it when i'm playing velvet hammer. he also played steel guitar on notorious byrd brothers, millenium's begin album, curt boetcher's solo album, john philips' wolfking of la album, bert jansch's la turnaround album, and ian matthews' valley hi album and harry nilsson's son of schmilsson. along with lots of other albums. i could probably connect all of this stuff really easily if i felt like it. red is the kevin bacon of stoner patriotism.

http://www.letitbe.com/auction/pictures/grt.jpg

― scott seward, Saturday, 24 March 2007 16:29 (eighteen years ago)

― M.V., Saturday, 24 March 2007 17:33 (eighteen years ago)

I once read that the bit at the beginning is an archival recording of one of Parks earlier projects playing Black Jack Davey. I'll see if I can dig up where I read that.

― I know, right?, Saturday, 24 March 2007 18:28 (eighteen years ago)

But I just looked it up and only found somebody saying it was Steve Youngs and couldn't find the original thing I was talking about. Which was very good so it's a shame. I'll just register that this album is probably my favourite album of all time. I think The Books sound quite Van Dyke-ey at times. Yellowhouse sounds a lot like Clang of The Yankee Reaper to me.

― I know, right?, Saturday, 24 March 2007 18:43 (eighteen years ago)

I would love to read that interview.

Most Song Cycle-esque album? Probably Smile. In fact, I look at Song Cycle as sort of Parks's own version of Smile.

― Mr. Snrub, Saturday, 24 March 2007 20:29 (eighteen years ago)

Well I'm sure it's there somewhere, I'd come across it a few times in the past, I'm just not sure what to type in to Google to bring it back up. There's an interview with him (used to be linked from his website, assume it still is) where he says that he writes the entire melody of the song note for note before he starts writing the lyrics and so being handed the songs for Smile and then putting words to it was entirely appropriate for how he writes. Most people do the opposite I think. It's just a little fact I think is kind of cool.

― I know, right?, Saturday, 24 March 2007 20:34 (eighteen years ago)

If you like the whole Parks/Newman/Beach Boys world of the late '60s then the Everly Brothers' Roots and and the Beau Brummels' Triangle and Bradley's Barn are needed. Each of these records were very much collaborative efforts for the WB "family". For example, Roots features a Newman tune, Parks' piano work, and the Brummels' Ron Elliott's arrangements and two compositions.

― QuantumNoise, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 13:13 (eighteen years ago)

millenium's begin album
curt boetcher's solo album
velvet hammer in a cowboy band

I've never heard/heard of these records. They sound awesome and just what I'm looking for these days. Thanks.

― QuantumNoise, Tuesday, 27 March 2007 13:15 (eighteen years ago)

three years pass...

This album is so fucking awesome. Listening to it now, watching the sunset that will eventually just turn into a sunrise without the night in between. I think of how it begins with Vine St. and the curtain being pulled back, like a flashback. Also, the echo. How the whole album is placeless, a mess of signifiers with no dot that says "you are here." The words he uses, the juxtapositions, the way they accumulate and then break with just the way he sings on the Attic "And then I came to see in baggage the memories of truncated souvenirs. The war years. High moon"

― plax (ico), Monday, 21 June 2010 22:40 (fifteen years ago)

also, what a fox

http://vandykeparks.com/images/VDPchair.JPG

― plax (ico), Monday, 21 June 2010 22:51 (fifteen years ago)

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r206/craigfraid/Brer_Fox_in_a_Disney_park.jpg

― Don't Make Me A Burrito (Craig D.), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 00:03 (fifteen years ago)

i think today was probably the first time ["a little touch of schmilsson in the night"] actually like clicked with me'. never really realized how much this album sounds like van dyke parks' "song cycle" (which i just got the 33 1/3 book for. super stoked to start reading it)
― jaxon, Saturday, June 19, 2010 7:05 PM (3 days ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

― jaxon, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 04:27 (fifteen years ago)

My mind was blown when I found out that VDP did the music for the Brave Little Toaster movie. Funny that Randy Newman is listed upthread as someone who took Parks as an influence because Pixar would later hire Newman (and plenty of future Pixar people worked on Brave Little Toaster)

― Cunga, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 04:47 (fifteen years ago)

Taking sides: Van Dyke Parks's music in Brave Little Toaster v.s. Glen Campbell's songs in Rock-A-Doodle v.s. Randy Newman's work in Pixar

― Cunga, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 04:49 (fifteen years ago)

I'm not sure about "clearly" because it could be a case of someone having similar influences to those that influenced VDP in the first place. But...

Pill Wonder
the 3 O'Clock
Ariel Pink
Animal Collective

...maybe?

― ImprovSpirit, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 18:12 (fifteen years ago)

three years pass...

Interesting, picked up the recent remasters of a couple of VDP lps recently so was wondering what the story was on Song Cycle's influence. If anybody got anything more coherent from taking it as an influence since it seems to kaleidoscopically change instead of getting into a groove or staying with the same thought and developing it.
& I thought of James O'Rourke who is mentioned at the beginning of the thread.

Nice lp Song Cycle but it does seem to task some people that it doesn't really develop anything in a coherent way. Does seem to be a collection of snapshots or something though.

― Stevolende, Sunday, 29 September 2013 18:57 (twelve years ago)

just watched this short video about the album.
http://vimeo.com/44236360

― tylerw, Sunday, 29 September 2013 19:17 (twelve years ago)

o'rourke said song cycle is his favorite album right after he released bad timing. abstract as those four camoufleur-era suites are i always think of them more than eureka vis a vis song cycle

― reggie (qualmsley), Sunday, 29 September 2013 19:45 (twelve years ago)

Of Montreal songs tend to have the kind of schizophrenic arrangements you find throughout Song Cycle.

― Emperor Cos Dashit (Adam Bruneau), Monday, 30 September 2013 23:46 (twelve years ago)

three years pass...

this is quite interesting, as they do 'sample' "Canto a Veracruz" for Song Cycle.
― beta, Thursday, October 9, 2003 8:58 AM (thirteen years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

holy shit, just discovered this song is the basis of "Public Domain"

― flappy bird, Monday, 9 January 2017 06:22 (eight years ago)

Yes, and I always thought it sounded Irish before I found that out.

― Eats like Elvis, shits like De Niro (Tom D.), Monday, 9 January 2017 08:41 (eight years ago)

I wish there was a compendium of the references in Song Cycle and its intertextuality. Richard Henderson's 33 1/3 book is great but it could be ~600 pages longer.

― flappy bird, Monday, 9 January 2017 17:41 (eight years ago)

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