Is believing you make good music essential to making good music?

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And the converse: is a lack of self-belief utterly crippling?

I've seen numerous examples of musicians who have little talent and yet go far in their music out of a sheer bloody-mindedness and, really, an ignorance of their own limitations. They play and sing and when it's over they're beaming with self-satisfaction, thinking they're great. THis feeling of greatness then translates into drive and determination. They want to make more 'great' music. And ultimately, they stretch themesleves out and gradually upwards to the point where, perhaps after months or years of gigging and (to my ears) sounding like they should never have bothered, they actually end up sounding rather good. Understandably so: they're more practised and proficient.

The converse is the talented fledgling who hears so well his limitations as a beginner that it cripples him from going at the business of writing & playing & having the balls to take it to an audience and, ultimately, of realising his true potential. How many brilliant songs were never written by this nameless faceless mass?

mick hall (mick hall), Thursday, 9 October 2003 10:34 (twenty-one years ago)

I think I'll plump for the unshakeable self-confidence, for the reasons you gave.

colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Thursday, 9 October 2003 11:24 (twenty-one years ago)

there needs to be a mix of both: believing in what you do, but having enough perspective as to realize if it sucks or it doesn't stand to the level you want to achieve. this gets harder once you're succesful and you're surrounded by plastic faces telling you how good you are, i suppose.

joan vich (joan vich), Thursday, 9 October 2003 11:32 (twenty-one years ago)

I think self-confidence is one thing, but I'm not sure this is the most important thing when being creative in any field. If someone is so crippingly self-aware that they can't even be creative in the area they love, then maybe they have some issues to address before they start writing songs anyway.

The converse is the talented fledgling who hears so well his limitations as a beginner that it cripples him from going at the business of writing & playing & having the balls to take it to an audience and, ultimately, of realising his true potential.

I guess I just don't believe this happens to people who are "meant" to be playing/composing music. I mean, in my experience, musicians can have problems adapting to the rest of society, but the one thing we can always come back to, the one thing that really makes sense is music.

Performing your music in front of an audience is something that musicians do because either 1) they love performing (hardly a requirement), or 2) they want to promote their stuff. I don't know how much it has to do with realizing their "true potential" though; potential is a usually word that other people use to talk about a musician, IMO not something musicians use to evaluate themselves.

dleone (dleone), Thursday, 9 October 2003 11:55 (twenty-one years ago)

How many brilliant songs were never written by this nameless faceless mass?

Erm, about every other electronic track ever produced. Electronic music is the chance every musician with low self-esteem/performance anxiety has been waiting for. Your question reeks of rockism.

Tuomas (Tuomas), Thursday, 9 October 2003 12:12 (twenty-one years ago)

Surely the idea of performance anxiety, and taking your music to a wider audience, operates on the same principle whatever the musical medium? Obviously a lot of electronic music takes away the 'need' for an extrovert persona and a 'star system', but a shy fucker in a bedroom is a shy fucker in a bedroom no matter what kind of music he's making.

DJ Mencap (DJ Mencap), Thursday, 9 October 2003 12:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, but he can be making great music in his bedroom even if he is a shy fucker who doesn't think much of himself; he only needs to send his tracks to a record label. This was my answer to the original question.

Tuomas (Tuomas), Thursday, 9 October 2003 12:43 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean, there are several electronic producers who don't think highly of their status, and who rarely if ever perform, and yet they're making music that gets released and which people love.

Tuomas (Tuomas), Thursday, 9 October 2003 12:45 (twenty-one years ago)

"Is believing you make good music essential to making good music?"
-No, thats easy. Good music is good music, who cares what the creator thinks of it.

I think what you meant to ask was:
"Is believing you make good music essential to getting recognized and creating a successful music career?"
-Still no, as long as you can make yourself marketable and people like the music (i.e. - you're in the biz for reasons other than love of music in the first place).. although it's probably a lot easier if you really do think your music is worth listening to.

pete from the street, Thursday, 9 October 2003 14:00 (twenty-one years ago)

No, see every great ballad on every tossed-out Stones album. Anyone that tells me Bridges To Babylon or Voodoo Lounge were conceived as anything more than "product" is insane.

adaml (adaml), Thursday, 9 October 2003 14:14 (twenty-one years ago)

AC/DC in *Time* magazine, circa 1981: "If we can sell the most records of anybody, music must really be in horrible shape." (Or words to that effect.)

Which proves...something.

chuck, Thursday, 9 October 2003 16:42 (twenty-one years ago)

The La's to thread

Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Thursday, 9 October 2003 23:10 (twenty-one years ago)

To Pete:

I was putting forward the idea that, perhaps, a good song only gets written when the writer makes something that meets with his own approval. If he writes noise but his ear hears angel song, angel song he's made he will believe - a spur to produce more of the same. But if he writes angel song, and lacking belief in his ability to do so, hears only noise (an affront), there'll be no more celestials from that lonesome lute. Or another way. The trajectory from silence to music worth the name derives its force from the strength of the artist's obligation to express. But then, what the bugger does that mean?

*exits weeping*

mick hall (mick hall), Friday, 10 October 2003 09:20 (twenty-one years ago)

You can express things without thinking what you've just expressed is "great". You may think: "Well, it isn't that good, but at least I managed to get my point through," and still someone else may think: "That's the most beautiful thing I've ever heard."

Tuomas (Tuomas), Friday, 10 October 2003 09:33 (twenty-one years ago)

there's a definite downside to thinking what you produce is 'great'. however, it's entirely necessary to believe that somebody else might enjoy what you produce.

the surface noise (electricsound), Friday, 10 October 2003 09:43 (twenty-one years ago)

How do you explain the genre of noise, then? ;)

Tuomas (Tuomas), Friday, 10 October 2003 09:45 (twenty-one years ago)

i enjoy noise! (to a degree)

the surface noise (electricsound), Friday, 10 October 2003 09:47 (twenty-one years ago)

by the same token it's entirely legitimate to produce music that you yourself really enjoy (although i get nothing from this personally)

the surface noise (electricsound), Friday, 10 October 2003 09:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Why on earth not?

DJ Mencap (DJ Mencap), Friday, 10 October 2003 11:28 (twenty-one years ago)

The pop charts are and always have been littered with people whose reponse to their own music was surely "This will sell" rather than "This is great". And it did sell, but often the reason it sold was that it was great.

Tom (Groke), Friday, 10 October 2003 11:35 (twenty-one years ago)

mick-
I see what you're getting at. But I think it still comes down to "beauty in the eye of the beholder." It is a shame if a producer is unsatisfied and stops producing, but that just affects the end size of that artist's body of work- it shouldn't affect anyones perception of that which is already created. Sure we are probably missing out on what might-have-been had the artist continued working, but it's pretty hard to force someone to do things they don't want to do.

Regarding the opposite scenario mentioned by surface noise- I think this is how I tend to dabble in music production. I end up making things that I want to listen to, but I think my tastes in electronic music are pretty narrow in some respects and I doubt many other folks would care for it much.

pete from the street, Friday, 10 October 2003 13:30 (twenty-one years ago)


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