A dear friend makes fun of me for visiting this board...

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...because apparently there's not enough quality discussion about broken beats. Would anyone like to help me prove him wrong?

― cybele (cybele), Monday, 20 October 2003 03:38 (twenty-two years ago)

there was one thread, a few months ago. i think thats quite enough.

― gaz (gaz), Monday, 20 October 2003 03:53 (twenty-two years ago)

yer right. ILM needs more room for Outkast and Cure threads.

― jack cole (jackcole), Monday, 20 October 2003 03:55 (twenty-two years ago)

I know about that one...the "What is broken beat" thread. And why? Why the dislike?

― cybele (cybele), Monday, 20 October 2003 03:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Did I start that one? I think I did.

― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Monday, 20 October 2003 03:57 (twenty-two years ago)

you did colin...did you check any out?

not exactly dislike from me cybele. more, sort of...disinterest. maybe your friend could contribute something that would get me excited?

― gaz (gaz), Monday, 20 October 2003 03:59 (twenty-two years ago)

I understand that Outkast and the Cure and all the other stuff on this board is worth discussing--I wouldn't dare suggest that a discussion about the merits of a Radiohead album would be ridiculous. I just don't understand why no one really talks about this stuff in the same detail on message boards. If you check the 4 hero message board or the Buz in the Attic/Bitasweet board the discussion isn't half as interesting as conversations here, but here it is rather rare to have people discussing this stuff. Hell, it's sorta rare for a discussion about a lot of the music that I get somewhat of a kick out of to fire up.

Yeah, I love the dancehall thread, but I'm feeling a bit like a one trick pony.

Please don't tell me to grab an issue of Straight No Chaser and retire to my room until I'm ready to talk about something legitimate...Straight No Chaser doesn't talk back and it's bloody well $12 or something over here.

― cybele (cybele), Monday, 20 October 2003 04:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, and why are there all these young broken beat supastars like Benji B and Quantic? Sure, Mr B's show on 1xtra is good fun to listen to, but I really find that he could do better in terms of providing info and asking pertinently interesting questions.

― cybele (cybele), Monday, 20 October 2003 04:03 (twenty-two years ago)

No Gaz, still haven't heard any, except by accident. It's a label, not a genre, is that right? And is the music jazzy-funky?

― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Monday, 20 October 2003 04:11 (twenty-two years ago)

no & maybe: maybe you should recheck that old thread colin...

Hell, it's sorta rare for a discussion about a lot of the music that I get somewhat of a kick out of to fire up

egs cybele?

― gaz (gaz), Monday, 20 October 2003 04:14 (twenty-two years ago)

For people like me who haven't heard any, and can't seem to find any orienting descriptions either, I found these:

http://www.sfbg.com/AandE/35/43/music1.html

http://www.tigersushi.com/site/frameset.jsp?page=tsc/genre/41.htm

http://www.popmatters.com/music/reviews/various/various-departuresglobalexpeditions.shtml

― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Monday, 20 October 2003 04:35 (twenty-two years ago)

See, now, I always thought broken beat meant that new york breakcore broklyn beats/tigerbeat kind of stuff...

But it also means jazzy dnb! (why did they need a new name for that?)

― Jacob (Jacob), Monday, 20 October 2003 04:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Cos they're from London!!! Sorry, that was quite uncalled for.

― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Monday, 20 October 2003 04:40 (twenty-two years ago)

that departures record is lying around here somewhere. i will find it and listen to it.

― gaz (gaz), Monday, 20 October 2003 04:41 (twenty-two years ago)

We really do know bugger all about broken beats. Your friend is right.

― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Monday, 20 October 2003 04:46 (twenty-two years ago)

no reason to make fun of cybele for coming here though! its not like theres much discussion of australian techno either, right?

― gaz (gaz), Monday, 20 October 2003 04:49 (twenty-two years ago)

thank god...err i mean true, true

― the surface noise (electricsound), Monday, 20 October 2003 04:50 (twenty-two years ago)

theres not even much discussion of country music is there? i mean, theres a little bit, but compared to radiohead or outkast...

― gaz (gaz), Monday, 20 October 2003 04:57 (twenty-two years ago)

You guys are just figuring out the indie/pop preferences of this board now? ;)

― oops (Oops), Monday, 20 October 2003 05:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Who's making fun of Cybele? Not me. Check the Tiger Sushi link folks, it's v. helpful. Gawd bless Tiger Sushi, they're good at explaining different musical forms.

This place knows its rock and hiphop. For techno I go to No Future board. For electro - Electroalliance. But where to go for Electroclash (recently renamed, accurately, 'Outsider Electro')?

― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Monday, 20 October 2003 05:10 (twenty-two years ago)

You guys are just figuring out the indie/pop preferences of this board now? ;)

gee i wondered why i felt so fucking welcome

― the surface noise (electricsound), Monday, 20 October 2003 05:11 (twenty-two years ago)

"HAHAHA, CYBELE, THEY DON'T TAKE ABOUT THE THEORY OF BROKEN BEATS, THE ONLY MUSIC THAT WILL MATTER... WHAT A BUNCH OF POINTLESS IMBECILES YOU CONSORT WITH!"

― donut bitch (donut), Monday, 20 October 2003 05:12 (twenty-two years ago)

"broken beats" does not equal "jazzy d'n'b".

even if landslide is on hospital, the fact that zed bias has turned into maddslinky and records on sirkus should set the record straight in temrs of what "broken beats" (urgh!) sounds like.
the reason not to discuss broken beats? cos every track sounds supa dated. and its all just tasteful garage isnt it? if tasteful = rhodes and sax riffs. my advice is to buy those 2-step compliations that blackmarket put out.

thats said, i really like the people records aesthetic.

best broken beat tunes: burning - tate's place (jazzanova remix)
kerri chandler - candles (seiji remix) - i think.

also, loads of the new sector movements tunes were good.

the only one i would listen to now is "afro history (my story) part 1." - new sector movements.

so, in summary, respect to i g culture, but fuck the rest y'all (esp jazzanova).

― ambrose (ambrose), Monday, 20 October 2003 08:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, the words "west london" usually equal "musically moribund". All "fresh breaks" "fat beats" "jazzy grooves" and blahhhhh.

― Jacob (Jacob), Monday, 20 October 2003 08:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Broken beats is a fairly insular scene and not particularly suited to the sort of random pick & mix approach that allows a lot of ILX regulars to quickly get acquainted with tracks from, say, dancehall. I agree with Ambrose that it's effect on producers like Zed Bias is unfortunate, but I don't think we should necessarily blame broken beats itself for that, anymore than techno is *responsible* for the downfall of d&b.

I obv. have no taste when it comes to this stuff b/c my favourite track in this general area is the Jazzanova mix of MJ Cole's "Sincere". But I really liked that last 4 Hero album too!

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Monday, 20 October 2003 08:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Maybe it's because I'm from Canada that it doesn't seem to be the case. Folks like John Kong (Do Right! Music), Jason, Palma, and A Man Called Warwick have been doing a night called "Movement" in Toronto for quite sometime. This shit is a part of their focus...Moonstarr, who now lives in Mtl, is a Canuck as well, and his stuff could be considered broken. Also, here in Mtl, Andy Williams and Scott C do a night where they play a lot of this stuff as well. There's a million radio shows and websites about this crap, and Bugz in the Attic have remixed bloody Macy Grey. In keeping, it seems that djs who play broken beats seem to have no problem with throwing on a poppy single and a lot of the stuff is so damn danceable. Sure, as soon as you start calling it "dancefloor jazz," it makes me want to throw up too...I find the attitude of folks who like this stuff (and refer to it as some "next shit," for instance) often pretty annoying, but I enjoying dancing around to this. Really, I do.

― cybele (cybele), Monday, 20 October 2003 13:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Wish I could help but I tend not to do the club scene in this city since I can't tell the ones with decent music from say The joker or crap like that.

And your not down the big smoke now are you? Shouldn't you be up in Montreal

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Monday, 20 October 2003 14:20 (twenty-two years ago)

M. ABBA BROKEN BEAT PRIMER:

jay-z feat. amil & ja rule - "can i get a..."
wiley - "blizzard"
elephant man - "nah lick"
andy c & shimon - "bodyrock"
more fire crew - "oi (soma family tabla mix)"
r kelly - "snake (remix)"
bubba sparxxx - "twerk a little"
mr. fingers - "washing machine"
squarepusher - "my red hot car"
alec empire - "hetzjagd auf nazis"
ramsey & fen - "desire"
metalheadz - "terminator"

― mohammed abba (dubplatestyle), Monday, 20 October 2003 14:40 (twenty-two years ago)

(p.s. i actually quite like broken beat when it doesn't get all samba-magical and treacly. that bugz in the attic mix has a good chance of hitting my top 10 this year, certainly more than the grossly overrated mr. villalobos or most microhouse i've heard this year.)

― mohammed abba (dubplatestyle), Monday, 20 October 2003 14:42 (twenty-two years ago)

I have no idea what broken beats are. I assumed it was "Broklyn Beats" label assoc, Donna Summer, etc. But, I was gonna say, from the above descriptions, sounds like hip hop.

― scott m (mcd), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 19:32 (twenty-two years ago)

jazzanova, an act so arrogant they remixed good life and replaced the keys with a dubby bassline, i'm all for remixing ruthlessly but that was just LAME.

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 21:37 (twenty-two years ago)

hey i really liked that recloose alubum

― Sonny A. (Keiko), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 22:00 (twenty-two years ago)

so did i! is that broken beat?

― gaz (gaz), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 22:05 (twenty-two years ago)

jess' compilation is cool but not sure it matches given definition of 'broken beat' - try these?

ian pooley 'whats your number (jazzanova mix)'
ski 'fifths (jazzanova sickth mix)'
4 hero 'hold it down'
macy gray 'when i see you (bugz in the attic mix)'
anything by west london deep
four tet 'she moves she'
d*note 'kite hill'
koari 'good life'

and if it doesn't move you, that's cos it's a bit nice but dull, heh

― stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 22:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Favorite (not) broken beat tunes as of today (I think I did this on another broken beat thread that didn't have 'broken beat' in the title):

Afronaught - Transcend Me
DKD - Future Rage
4hero - Hold It Down (Bugz in the Attic Mix)
Seiji - Second Nature (Unreleased Mix)
Agent K - Betcha (Did)
Titonton Duvante - Avenues
Nubian Mindz - Planet Electro
New Sector Movements - Download This
Recloose - Ain't Changin'*
Kabuki - Tempest
Likwid Biskit - Substance
Stephane A - Distant Planet
Ayro - Drink*
John Arnold - We're Not*
Cobblestone Jazz - The Fifth Element
Mustang - Transitions

*Detroit's threatening to become broken beat's second home.

― Andy K (Andy K), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 22:16 (twenty-two years ago)

The recurring 'oh this board is so indie' / 'oh this board is so anti-indie' sentiments that surface on ILM remind me of the 'BBC is so left-winged biased / BBC is so right-wing biased' complaints that make one think it must be doing OK.

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 21 October 2003 22:52 (twenty-two years ago)

A dear friend makes fun of me for visiting this board...

C'mon, it's s1utsky, isn't it? That hypocritical broken-beat asshole! ;p

― adaml (adaml), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 04:37 (twenty-two years ago)

actually that reminds me:

i reckon the best broken best tune ive heard is recloose 'aint changing' too.
also, fourtet are totally like broken beat! i've never really thought of it like that, but thinking back to last friday, keiron hebden could easily peddle that stuff to the ladbroke grove crew...

as per cybele, i feel ashamed to listen to this stuff, and its certainly not the 'new', but it is well good to dance to, even if you feel dirty afterwards, as though ross allen has just licked you up and down.

ps jacob, i didnt mean to sound arsey, i just meant that d'n'b and broken beat are so far apart rhythmically to me

― ambrose (ambrose), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 12:30 (twenty-two years ago)

But it also means jazzy dnb! (why did they need a new name for that?)

erm because it isn't jazzy dnb at all, perhaps...

also, fourtet are totally like broken beat! i've never really thought of it like that, but thinking back to last friday, keiron hebden could easily peddle that stuff to the ladbroke grove crew...

erm, he sort of has... he remixed two banks of four's street lullaby for sirkus records, turning it into one of my absolute favourite 2step garage tracks ever...

and ambrose isn't it a bit daft to feel ashamed of listening to anything? admittedly the whole straight no chaser thing get my goat and people like domu are fussy, noodly ponces, but seiji, orin et al are damned good musicians and djs and saying you hate something just coz of the way it might make you look is the sort of thing wallies like chip morningstar (or whatever he's calling himself today) would do. you're better than that!

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 13:32 (twenty-two years ago)

and...

best broken beat tunes: burning - tate's place (jazzanova remix)

ugh! this is a horrible record!

though, for my money anything remixed or made by seiji is worth getting a hold of. likewise troubleman on far out records (merk pritchard of global communications etc etc), plenty of jimpster stuff is good and dyadic shift by yennah on freerange records is an absolute belter too...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 13:40 (twenty-two years ago)

also check tha vibe by nubian mindz is amazing

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 13:41 (twenty-two years ago)

and most everything by zero db is great, particularly their rejig of interfearence's Xtradition and truby trio's galicia...

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 13:44 (twenty-two years ago)

I wouldn't say I feel ashamed listening to this stuff, rather I just don't like the attitude (as described by Mr. Stelfox above). Also, that Benji B guy's voice kinda grates...

Andy: You like the Bugz remix of "Hold it Down"? I'm not so impressed. I was, however, impressed with Quantic's do-over of the thing...

― cybele (cybele), Wednesday, 22 October 2003 23:53 (twenty-two years ago)

I think the Bugz remix of "Hold it Down" is quite good although it doesn't really deviate from the original *that* much (nor does Exemen remix, curiously).

I interviewed one of the guys from Bugz in the Attic the other night and he seemed quite decent (he even admitted the standard "we don't wanna be pidgeonholed/wanna make "good" music" line was a wanky thing to say).

I have a very mild beef with Seiji though because I bought his and G-Force's album on Reinforced a few years back expecting more inspired breakbeat fuckery a la his track on the The End of the Beginning comp. and was very disappointed. I sold it so I'm not sure if I would like it now.

― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Thursday, 23 October 2003 00:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Broken Beat primer: nobody can agree what the good tracks are

― Jacob (Jacob), Thursday, 23 October 2003 02:21 (twenty-two years ago)

dave: my music taste is dictated 50% by external contextual factors. eg: design on a cd, whether the producer has a mullet, whether i had a headache when i heard the tune, whether in interviews the producers say things like "music for your mind" etc etc etc.
please dont tell me how to listen to music. it doesnt make sense for these sort of factors to play any part in whether i like one record or another. but they just do. i should just listen to what comes out of the speakers, man. but i cant.
more and more, the context is more than the music. i can appreciate music that i never would dream of listening to 3 years ago, looking for the effect it has on other people. when i see my girlfriend listening to muse, who i think are gash, and seeing her pleasure in listening to it, that gives me some sort of access to it.

grime is the perfect example. i mean, a lot of it is not very danceable, its not sexy, and its a bit of a headfuck. but hearing it on the pirates, going to the shops, experiencing the buzz, the scene, in a way for me that is the music.

and i dont feel ashamed in admitting that! partly because a) i just dont think its a bad thing to be influenced by extra-musical factors, and b) i think that 99.999% of everyone else experiences music in the samer way, to greater or lesser extents!

so please, dont tell me how to enjoy music. i enjoy it, and isnt that enough?

― ambrose (ambrose), Thursday, 23 October 2003 07:51 (twenty-two years ago)

What the hell is grime? Explanation please. Sometimes, I think people just slip in made up artsits/styles to hoodwink us oldsters.

― Billy Dods (Billy Dods), Thursday, 23 October 2003 07:58 (twenty-two years ago)

grime = nasty crew, ruff squad, diamond clique, sharky major, d double e, wiley, tinchy strider, jammer, wiley, target, meridian crew, skepta, boys in the hood, dj mac 10, slimzee, musical mobb, riko, breeze, hyper, dizzee (?!), ashman, roll deep. and all the rest. ie east london (or south or north, dont know about west really), quasi-garage. but not really garage. but don't mention the hiphop!

― ambrose (ambrose), Thursday, 23 October 2003 08:39 (twenty-two years ago)

i wasn't aware i was telling anyone how to listen to music at all, just expressing a view and of course i agree about grime etc. having hung out in blackmarket for far too much time over the years (even travelling down from liverpool to get my fix before i moved to london) the context of the whole "hardcore continuum" means a hell of a lot to me and i canm see exactly what you're getting at. that's why i've railed against certain people's definitions of/theories and extrapolations from a number of scenes on ilx simply because it's not enough to download a track from soulseek and think you know the lot - you have to be part of it, go to the shops, feel it and live it. or at least in the case of someone like simon reynolds who's now in new york, have a spanking knowledge of its history and know where it comes from. obviously, i far prefer grime/dancehall etc to to broken beat for precisely those reasons - they're onlyu two different sides of the same coin, after all. anyway, i'm not getting on a high horse or giving you a hard time, far less having the audacity to tell anyone how to listen to music (come on, i'm not that much of a cunt). howver, i do just think some of ilx's inverted snobbery is a bit silly sometimes - some "tasteful" music can be pretty good sometimes.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 23 October 2003 13:05 (twenty-two years ago)

"it's not enough to download a track from soulseek and think you know the lot - you have to be part of it, go to the shops, feel it and live it."

Oh give me a break.

a) If you actually know what grime, or 8-bar, or sublow, or whatever the name is this week, is in the first place, you probably know all about the context it comes from, whether you live in Hackney or Melbourne.

b) In general, people who are deeply invested in any particular type of music are not particularly likely to be a trustworthy guide to whether it's any good or not. That goes double for grime and pretty much every other aspect of the precious 'hardcore continuum,' the defense of which verges on nationalistic at times.

― Ben Williams, Thursday, 23 October 2003 13:24 (twenty-two years ago)

hopefully this clears that up. one thing's for sure, though, it's certainly thrown up a couple of interesting questions in my mind in much the same vein as the "separating the artist/motivation from the art" threads (burzum, skrewdriver, homophobic dancehall) about "separating the scene from the sound"

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 23 October 2003 13:29 (twenty-two years ago)

oh fuck it - i give up

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 23 October 2003 13:30 (twenty-two years ago)

ok ben, in relation to a pice i've just written on bhangra: i'm not south asian, i knew a bit about it but not much and spent quite a bit of time going out seeing it in *context*, seeing people dancing to it, watching it work as a scene, talking to people, getting record tips - learning. or should i have just stayed at home with a couple of compilations that i didn't even fucking *buy* and then try to tell people anything even halfway constructive or informative about it?

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 23 October 2003 13:35 (twenty-two years ago)

There's no "should" about it. I don't think context is irrelevant; it's interesting and important. It's no guarantee though, and it doesn't close off other opinions. And I think for a critic it's something to be slightly wary of--otherwise you end up proselytizing.

― Ben Williams, Thursday, 23 October 2003 13:50 (twenty-two years ago)

nonetheless i am convinced that dave's article will be far better now than it would've been had he just downloaded a few bhangra tracks at home.

― stevem (blueski), Thursday, 23 October 2003 13:55 (twenty-two years ago)

i think engaging with music in its own environment is really damned important, it has to be done, especially from a journalistic standpoint (ie not a specifically critical one but trying to show people a culture). otherwise it's like writing war reports from the comfort of your living room. hell, jayson blair's pieces weren't badly written and they did have some good points, they just weren't real.

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 23 October 2003 13:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Funny how nobody noticed they weren't real at the time.

Anyway, from a journalistic standpoint I agree with you. But journalism is one thing, and criticism is another. They don't really have a lot to do with each other. Just don't use the former to circumscribe the latter, is all.

― Ben Williams, Thursday, 23 October 2003 14:00 (twenty-two years ago)

i prefer journalism for precisely the reasons stated above and given the choice (unless i'm feeling especially lazy and don't want to leave the house), then that's what i'll usually opt for. however, they do have lot to do with one another, as in engagement gives you material to work with and context etc. ie you can judge how good a record really is in context of whether its a good example of its genre, how it would work on a dancefloor etc as opposed to an evaluation made from an ivory tower. i know that's not what you're advvocating either and think we're all half-agreeing here. and after two lots of justifying myself today, i have to say this thread is pretty interesting!

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 23 October 2003 14:06 (twenty-two years ago)

(Aside from all that, one of the perenially cool and interesting things about music is how people pick it up out of context, in another time or another place, and understand it in completely different ways from how it was originally received. Do they just not get it, or are they picking up on things that were there all along, but hidden? Art is there to be reinterpreted.)

― Ben Williams, Thursday, 23 October 2003 14:07 (twenty-two years ago)

oh shut up you're derailing my whole argument!!!

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 23 October 2003 14:15 (twenty-two years ago)

;)

― Dave Stelfox (Dave Stelfox), Thursday, 23 October 2003 14:15 (twenty-two years ago)

"you can judge how good a record really is in context of whether its a good example of its genre, how it would work on a dancefloor etc as opposed to an evaluation made from an ivory tower."

Dancefloor vs. ivory tower is a bogus opposition, really, with all sorts of other oppositions lingering in the shadows behind it.

But anyway. From that perspective, I would probably trust you to tell me what the best records within the genre are. I might not trust you to tell me just how good those records are, or how they stack up against records from outside the genre.

― Ben Williams, Thursday, 23 October 2003 14:21 (twenty-two years ago)

sorry dave its just you came on me a bit hard for my throwaway comment. for me, ILX is not journalism or maybe even criticism, it is conversation about music. Thats the way i contribute to it, as a consumer, not a journalist or a critic, cos i am neither.

when i said i'm ashamed to like broken beat, i didnt say it wasnt any good. as i said, it is really good to dance to (which fulfils most of my criteria about music), i just dont feel comfortable with it; i just cant get into it. thats not like a definite choice, like: "god thats lame, i dont want to like that". its much more insiduous than that.

the context that you talk about history etc etc is a bit too worthy. i'm talking about things that 'shouldnt' make any difference, but for me they do, and i suspect they have an influence on most other people.

― ambrose (ambrose), Thursday, 23 October 2003 14:29 (twenty-two years ago)

I bought 2000 Black "The Good Good" listened to it twice and hated hated it. Was I wrong?

― Lukas (lukas), Thursday, 23 October 2003 16:38 (twenty-two years ago)

funnily enough Bugz in the Attic fabriclive turned up in my postbox yesterday. is that brokenbeat? if it is, i quite like it. but then again i like ninja tune. only had one spin but its certinaly got its own vibe.

yup

― gallantseagull, Thursday, 23 October 2003 21:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Lukas you were 100% totally right

― M Matos (M Matos), Thursday, 23 October 2003 21:10 (twenty-two years ago)

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