"60s free jazz is the only jazz i have bothered with"

yes I have made that awful post as a result of overreacting (surprise, surprise) to Edd's post in the matching mole thread.

I started listening to the 60s 'free' stuff and quite frankly still listening to quite a few records from that time (as well as other genres). I never actually heard this stuff on the radio but have read bits in mags and tried it out (which is what i do with most music i actually 'discover').

Same with classical music: so far, mostly 20th century.

Its a good way of starting with these genres tho'. Then you can always work back (that's what i tell myself).

BTW, one of the best BYG records, Grachan Moncur III's New Africa, came out on CD this week, as did Archie Shepp's Yasmina, A Black Woman (paired with Poem For Malcolm).

Yeah, the Shepps have already been issued together on an Italian CD (w/ a shitty non-standard BYG cover) - I think true ownership of most of this BYG material is muddy, to say the least, so diff. companies are reissuing it a kind of scattershot fashion, some on vinyl, some on CD (I wld love CD copies of the Jimmy Lyons and Sunny Murray BYG reissues that I've seen - finally managed to score some ltd ed. CD of 'Monkey Pockie-Boo')

It's not just free jazz that has been welll-served recently, reissue-wise - if you're a keen collector of British jazz, for example, then you can't move for Tubby Hayes, Ken Colyer, Chris Barber, Ronnie Scott, Kenny Ball, Humph etc. etc. reissues - not to mention things like 'Outback' by Mike Osbourne and 'Flare Up' by Harry Beckett finally making it onto disc.

The market for free jazz reissues is still a miniscule part of the miniscule jazzbo market, in the UK. A distributor told me recently that in the UK he had managed to shift a grand total of 65 copies of an important Albert Ayler live release, which is fuckin' pitiful.
Even 'Footprints' by Wayne Shorter - his first ever live alb, his first alb as leader in 8 years, a poll-winning rec in Downbeat and Jazztimes etc. etc. - has only sold abt 30,000 copies WORLDWIDE.

Listening to one type of anything is dud, obv.

I think its a good way to work back if you like stuff like psych rock, beefheart free jazz won't scare you so muc maybe.

And since a lot of 20th century composition deals with electronics, and if you like techno or whatever then that's a way in to classical.

but of course, once you're in then you can try get into other types of the thing.

very more-ish, yet it's finite -- many of those pieces were ideas that didn't need repeating ad absurdum -- so, some of the best free jazz pieces are from the '60s, when everybody was first to the chords and ideas -- free jazz was played by real jazz musos, not rock session even, so they were capable of pulling off some extremes in various new ideas areas, especially when collaborating with other experts -- a lot of "free "jazz" these days is stuck in a career virtuoso holding pattern and many are simple re-hashes of the '60s -- some of those ideas only needed to be done just enough once not be boring, given their position precisely on the edge of excess

my advice, don't get through it too fast, or listen to tracks too quickly -- you will tire of them and not be able to replace them -- get into it gradually, and all the pieces will unfold over time -- because, you _can_ burn-out on that music, because it is the fastest music i've ever heard (and it is great fun and such a breathe of fresh air from 4/4)

so '60s and '70s jazz are by far the most listenable, but as '84s Metheny/Coleman hinted, maybe an "endangered species".

I got into free jazz thru traditional jazz. The thing I really like early on was the improv aspect, esp. '20s collective improvisation, then on thru Bird, then hard bop etc., so when I got to free jazz, those ideas taken to their logical extreme really got me excited. I feel like I had to "get" jazz before I could "get" free jazz. I know I'm in the minority here. I would say my favorite jazz to listen to now is still early jazz and/or '60s/'70s free-ish stuff that has some restraint like the '60s inside/outside Blue Notes.

Actually, I think Phil recommended the Sam Rivers album Crystals to me on another thread and it's one of the coolest records of any kind I've ever heard. Intensely organized compostitions containing huge loud utter freak-outs. But still, it helped that I heard Rivers's Fuschia Swing Song first.

BTW, one of the best BYG records, Grachan Moncur III's New Africa, came out on CD this week

Can't wait to hear this, the Moncur Mosaic box is freaking amazing.

more so than ... :: 20th cent composers : classical

in my opinion.

also, "the only kind of modern art i have bothered with is jackson pollock and stuff like that"

i suspect this is a fallacy. paying attention to changes and voicings etc. does not mitigate against "emotional" involvement (i put this in quotes because i don't even really see the distinction).

and 30,000 is a huge number of records, especially for a jazz record. gosh the record label where i worked briefly would be excited to sell 5,000 copies of a cd.

(i don't think this process is anything to do with 'visceral emotion')

Free jazz is definetely easier if you enjoy 'pychedelic' rock music (and both took off in the 60s).

Not true. I cover free jazz, and I write not only for the Wire but also for Jazziz, which is (or was at one point) the best-selling jazz magazine in the US, mostly because they put lots of smoothies on the cover. So mainstream jazz magazines definitely publish pieces on "out" stuff (I've written about Derek Bailey and the Flying Luttenbachers for Jazziz).

the Bossa Nova, on the other hand -- yummy yum yum, as they say in Hobbiton during the annual pie eating contest..

also, always beware the Jazzbo who is a reformed rocker, spitting on rock to uplift the purity of his or her love in a false notion of higher musical forms (see Richard Meltzer).

so far i have figured out (going by numbers in left-hand corner on cds):
1. art ensemble - a jackson in your house/message to our folks

2. don cherry – mu part one/mu part two

3. archie shepp – blasé/live at the pan-african festival

4. sun ra – solar myth approach vol 1 and 2

5. dewey redman - tarik

6. gato barbieri/dollar brand – hamba khale! AND anthony
braxton – actuel 15 sess.

7. sunny murray – sunshine/even break: never give a sucker

8. art ensemble – reese and the smooth ones

9. archie shepp – live at antibes 1&2

any since then? what are their numbers? why two different releases with the number 6 as cat #? has any of the alan silva stuff from byg/actuel made it on to a CD?

(sorry if i am derailing this thread!)

http://www.jazzdiscography.com/Labels/byg.htm

as for the original question, even if i do tend to favor 60s jazz, i think it is a rather bland orthodoxy. i got into coltrane because a guy at a record store told me to, and i turned on immediately to it (Live at Birdland), especially the eastern/african feel of "afro blue". i was really surpirsed to discover the orthodoxy after the fact. i wonder if "coltrane and hartman" is allowed into the Wire cannon? its coltrane, but it has VOCALS too! i think its one of the best albums ever released. this reminds me i need to go start a thread...

so sonic youth just tease me with the absence of their visceral qualities, practically speaking -- but 'definitive fakes' is too strong -- i should not get 'cranky' in public, yearning for the good old days -- it's my own visceral response to the absence, an absence which seems inconsistent with the touring patterns of many other bands -- audience numbers would not be down for a couple of flash gigs in new zealand

i think trane helping the other guys get contracts is a great thing, and the limited exposure he allowed those guys to get and his inspiration to them is probably for me his principal accomplishment and legacy

the parallels between the limited range of harmonics trane seemed to let's say confine himself to and the sonic youth non-blues tuned guitars alternative subset of guitar playing is probably what motivates me to post stuff like this -- maybe for the sake of the people who like this stuff and do not get bored with it, i should shut up

a jimmy lyons box set would be a great thing

I also downloaded 'Numbers 1 and 2' from that boxset and from the one listen I can't quite see why phil disliked 'sound' and yet likes art ensemble.

the british Black Lion label reissued it as "The Great Paris Concert", but beware, there are two different "Great Paris Concerts", the first or "official" one was on Prestige, a 3lp box set with sam rivers and extensive gary giddins notes

only student studies and two related compositons were recorded by BMG, and they made it to Affinity/ Charly/ Black Lion and now Fuel 2000 -- only called "great paris concert" by Black Lion, Student Studies is an intmate well paced taylor/lyons/silva etc. gig -- a great introdution

it's also a gig that doesn't get stuck in just a few chords or the same old "fire music" free jazz ur-tempo -- it's much more subtle in both departments, beautifully all over the place

this reminded me of another free jazz rock star, ornette. He had another truly whacky soundtrack for a film called "Who's Crazy", which this time he more-successfully opposed reproduction of, so the 2lp on Affinity is all the evidence i have of the existence of another fantastic free jazz 2lp recording by one of the rockstars of free jazz "with BYG"

mark s is the only person i've met who's familiar with this record, so he can confirm its existence if its not on any of those lists

'Who's Crazy' is certainly mentioned in the All Music Jazz Guide bk.

i wonder how many people have heard "Who's Crazy" ?

pharoah sanders izipho zam
don cherry eternal rhythm
sun ra cosmic tones for mental therapy
ornette coleman live at the golden circle
marzette watts marzette and co. ("backdrop for urban revolution!!")
albert ayler lorrach, paris 1966 (this should really be complete impulse 2cd)
eric dolphy out to lunch
sam rivers dimensions and extensions
anthony braxton three compositions... (or "for alto" if you're brave)
cecil taylor unit structures

Pharaoh Sanders, Izipho Zam (good luck finding it on CD, though)
Don Cherry, Eternal Rhythm
Sonny Sharrock, Black Woman
Art Ensemble of Chicago, Reese And The Smooth Ones
Cecil Taylor, Student Studies
Sonny Rollins, Our Man In Jazz
Ornette Coleman, The Shape Of Jazz To Come
John Coltrane, Interstellar Space
Frank Wright, Church Number Nine
Grachan Moncur III, New Africa

Dave Holland 'Conference of the Birds', for sheer accessibility. I really love the sense it gives of being totally open yet so relaxed.

Mat Maneri 'Sustain' - I just got this one so its on my mind, but it's growing on me. It just has such an eveloping sound, and the solo spots give it a lot of variety.

Art Ensemble of Chicago 'Fanfare for the Warriors' - I think of this one a lot as a reference when it comes to (slightly) larger group free jazz, maybe because I heard it early on, but they did it so well.

FREE JAZZ: Pick Only Ten

I picked up the CD reish of 'Reese and the Smooth Ones' by the Art Ensemble today (plus 'Echo' by Dave Burrell - who I last heard on David Murray's utterly gorgeous, but most assuredly not Free, 'Ballads' alb - someone was asking abt Murray? He's fuckin' prolific, lotsa releases on DIW (= ultra-expensive Japanese imports), but I esp. like 'Ming' and 'The Hill' (the former, a large group rec w/ ppl like Butch Morris, the insanely great trombone player George Lewis (NOT the dixieland clarinet player!), Donald and Walter's fave Henry Threadgill; the latter, a trio rec with Richard Davis and Joe Chambers! He's also recorded together w/ Elvin Jones and McCoy Tyner!) Murray has an absolutely creamy tenor sound, incredible chops, an almost too-easy command of jazz history, and can channel the spirit of Albert Ayler as well as Ware when the mood takes him - but there is a large composed element to most of the music I've heard by him, and I don't think he wld consider himself a 'free jazz' musician, whoever/whatever that is - but he's good, no question abt it

Anyway, I can totally see why Duane, on that other thread, picked 'Reese' for his free jazz top ten, man it's got it all!

Echo is a fucking incredible record, and the gig I'm most pissed about missing this week is Burrell with William Parker and Andrew Cyrille at Joe's Pub this past Sunday night. Oh, well.

also, doesn't Echo just look fabulously right in italics? Echo. see, like that.

ilm correct me if I'm wrong but I think Ornette's Free Jazz is a good place to start, too (to get the full mo), or Ornette's pre-Free Jazz albums in which he's loosening up a lot, like Shape of Jazz to Come or This is Our Music.

what timing bcz today soulseek gave me a copy of Noah howard's 'the black ark' and that would go in my 'top ten'. Arthur doyle is on top form and is really the driving force behind this. 'mount fuji' is the choiciest cut.

and I also burned a copy of Frank wright/muhammad ali duo ('adieu little world'): this is almost as good as frank lowe/rashied ali duo (both modelled on coltrane's 'interstellar space' of course).

''you just never see 'Black Beings' in London, on any format''

that's by Frank lowe right andrew? I've seen a copy of this in ray's jazz shop on LP recently (1st hand, in their avant garde Lps section). you might want to check this out.

rw- I'd say you should go for frank lowe/rashied ali 'duo exchange' on knitting factory. you've probably heard rashied with coltrane, plus this is cheap (my copy cost 10 quid) and its pretty short (two 15 min tracks).

Why that specific one Julio? (as opposed all the others listed so far here and on the other thread)

The first track has one of the great moments of all time for me, when frank is stop starting riffs from his horn, lyrical one moment, barking the other. I love every note. Actually i'll give this a listen tonight and if i can i'll write some more (but I'm sure many others will go for this one).

Maybe you could try Albert ayler's 'spiritual unity' but you also have gary peacock's bass. A duo might be easier to take in (maybe, I think my first 'free' record was a duo but i can't rememeber who it was now).

broheems- its not that i didn't like you linking it in with free improv on that other thread (i'll need to do another list with some short notes sometime later, it wasn't very good at all). just used the opprotunity to look into diff between the two.

I just sent you an e-mail. Look out for that.

Pharaoh Sanders, Izipho Zam (good luck finding it on CD, though)

I got this on Friday in Selectadisc in Soho, London for £2.99! I repeat 2 friggin' 99! Be good to your earholes and buy this and also a very good Sun Ra CD which is also £2.99, called "Spaceways". That's all folks.

I haven't heard figuring (but its on incus) but I'll get to it eventually. hope you're well.

I went to selectadisc and picked the pharoah snaders. its a bit uneven but those moments when pharoah is doing histhing and sharrock is doing his thing at the same time really does it for me.

also got some alan silva: luna surface on LP.

I guess this could be true of lots of genres though. It always seems like more of an issue for me with jazz. I almost want to keep my minimal jazz interests secret around real jazz heads, because otherwise they'll be expecting me to nod in agreement about the great ones (who I'm willing to concede probably are or were genuinely great, without necessarily enjoying them).

I do feel a quiet tinge of sadness at all the people who say free jazz is the only jazz they find accessible. Not so much in an elitist way; more that I feel like I have a musical language I can't share with a lot of other people who love music.

Straight ahead jazz benefits from some minimal training -- learning to follow the chord progressions, etc. Once I learned to follow it, I really found/continue to find it incredibly fulfilling. I think it's unfortunate that the pervasive attitude today, even among people with very complex musical tastes, seems to be that music shouldn't have any requisite knowledge for enjoyment.

in my opinion.

also, "the only kind of modern art i have bothered with is jackson pollock and stuff like that"

-- mig (later_wittgenstei...), November 10th, 2003.

(hey mig where are you?)

Is that really true if you include minimalists or (as kyle gann class them) post-minimalist composers. those guys do seem to bridge the gap.

you just never see 'Black Beings' in London, on any format

Bought it from a remainder cd shop connected to a Dublin bookshop about 10 years back, fierce record.Dunno about London or how rare an occasion me finding that in Dublin was. Was a great cd shop, shame its not a focus there any more. But then Chapters isn't where it was nor in 3 separate premises. Was a very rewarding trawl spending a couple hours going through both of their cd shop premises.

Re: the title: I get where people are coming from, but part of the enjoyment of 'rule breaking' music comes from understanding what rules they're breaking, and why. This is what makes free jazz jazz after all, and not free rock, or whatever.