This is the thread where we defend the Stone Roses.

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Matos, on that "supposedly classic albums that suck" thread:

big big big second to The Stone Roses, which may well own this thread

Eddy, on a recent thread:

You know, I'm actually starting to get sad that, after all the stuff in this thread, nobody has come to the Stone Roses' defense.

So here goes.

Taking a look at the old "classic or dud" SR thread, it seems that ILM has come to a virtual consensus on this subject. I'm not sure how to begin defending em - I mean, who wants to admit to being a Stone Roses fan? They're all idiots with a creepy quasi-religious attachment to the band or retro bores who think John Squire is some kind of guitar god (like that's something to brag about, ugh). I've yet to read a completely convincing defense of them myself.

Well, I was 16 when I first heard the debut album, and I loved it then and I love it now - not as much, admittedly, but I can't think of many albums I've loved the way I loved this one for a while. For a high school student in the U.S. who hadn't heard a lot of British music beyond the usual suspects - Oasis and Blur - hearing it felt like a portal into a different universe. My best friend at the time was a dedicated Anglophile who had a rather extreme crush on John Squire, and she urged me to get the Roses' debut AND the Seahorses' debut, because both were equally good. I bought both, not expecting much at all, and was mildly entertained by the former and bored sick by the latter (I don't think I ever even sat through the whole thing). Around that time I remember stumbling across this NME list of the greatest albums of the '80s and being stunned to see TSR at the top, with some rave about how it was as great as any rock and roll ever made. But I kept playing the album, and one night the hype suddenly made sense.

There's no question that "One Love," Second Coming and the solo careers were atrocities, one and all, and that the band were at least partly to blame for the oh-so-proper MOR drudgery of Britpop. But to me they seemed like the GREAT version of Oasis: even though there wasn't much about their sound that was new (originality = much overrated concept anyway, as far as I'm concerned), their attitude toward the past seemed like the total opposite of the Gallaghers' addled, suffocating regard for all things Beatles. "Kiss me where the sun don't shine/The past was yours but the future's mine" - that sums it up, and it's as great as any rock couplet ever written. For me, it's the much-reviled middle of the album that makes it: "Bye Bye Badman," "Elizabeth My Dear," "Sugar Spun Sister," "Made of Stone." That wistful, ambiguous mood. The deceptive prettiness layered over half-whispered threats, the buried hints of aggression, the nastiness seeping out of the grooves.

"Fools Gold" may be overrated (though it's still great), yes. But I don't see how someone could love Murmur, for example, and hate TSR. The irritatingness of their fans is a point against them, as is the fact that it seems sort of, well, silly to be a Stone Roses fan in 2003. They were definitely a product of their time - too much, maybe, to be truly classic. If I were hearing it for the first time now, 6 years on, God knows what I'd think. But I can't hear the long intro to "Adored" or the swooning, menacing rush of "Made of Stone" without shivering and remembering how fantastic it felt the first time around - and, in certain moments, still does.

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Monday, 10 November 2003 05:54 (twenty-two years ago)

I listened to the first album tonight. It pretty much runs counter to my tastes, but when it came out I really loved it and I've been a fan (of the album, not anything else) ever since.

Anyway, it wouldn't need defending if people weren't so hell-bent on tearing it down. I don't know what's up lately (heh, lately) but the continual ILM-gang-up-on-everything threads are tedious and (usually) boring. I'd much rather read about what someone likes than what they don't like.

― hstencil, Monday, 10 November 2003 05:59 (twenty-two years ago)

its a fantastic fanstastic record. thats fanstastic.

what english guitar pop record since betters it? i don't care for much of thier output since (maybe beggin you and the bsides) but its a classic.

perhaps as Justyn points out you have to have lived with the record at or near the time. I don't think so though.

probably in my all time fave top 10.

― gallantseagull, Monday, 10 November 2003 06:18 (twenty-two years ago)

a fine defense I must say. the intro to 'Adored' is indeed spine-tingling, and i also have big love for 'Elephant Stone'. i bought it after hearing 'Fools Gold' ad nauseum on a Toronto alt.rock station (maybe the key to appreciating it is not being English?) and hated the rest of the album until it clicked. i suppose most of ILX naturally have a problem with decent-but-not-godhead albums elevated to cultural touchstone status, but seeing as most people seem to have forgotten about the Stone Roses, a bit of perspective might be good.

― Dave M. (rotten03), Monday, 10 November 2003 06:33 (twenty-two years ago)

stone roses = noose rests

― thul jone, Monday, 10 November 2003 06:50 (twenty-two years ago)

I think the first record is one of the best albums ever - and that's not to say that the singles aren't some of my favorite ever. I have no shame about loving them and I'm mystified if the general ILM review is thumbs down. The songs are just so good. "Bye Bye Badman" is my favorite.

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Monday, 10 November 2003 06:56 (twenty-two years ago)

I bought the 1st album on a whim when i was 14 after reading a review of it in Seventeen magazine! I have loved other brit bands more but I have never loved a british album more than this.

I can't even begin to defend this album because it is just so perfect that if you don't get it you probably never will. A loss.

― Carey (Carey), Monday, 10 November 2003 07:48 (twenty-two years ago)

I LOVE "Fools Gold," actually, there's nothing overrated about it. So that's my defense right there.

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 10 November 2003 08:04 (twenty-two years ago)

I couldn't be arsed defending an album I grew up with and loved to bits. Like most I don't listen to it as much now. Feel same about teh La's which no doubt gets the same thumbs down from ILM. Bugger John Squire (not literally), great as he is, try Reni's loose and groovey drumming.

― mentalist (mentalist), Monday, 10 November 2003 08:07 (twenty-two years ago)

The Stone Roses in general, and the first album in particular, don't require any defending. I agree with hstencil. The I hate (fill in the blank) stuff is getting tired. They're a good band who made one great album. I also think that "Second Coming" is much better than it has ever been given credit for.

― J-rock (Julien Sandiford), Monday, 10 November 2003 08:46 (twenty-two years ago)

"Shoot You Down" is beautiful. I discovered the album nearly a decade after it came out and it sounds far less dated than quite a few of the early nineties bands that I've tried and failed to enjoy (Slowdive coming to mind).

― Sarah Pedal (call mr. lee), Monday, 10 November 2003 08:55 (twenty-two years ago)

i really like a lot of the stones roses first album,even if i'd rarely be bothered listening to it at this stage...
this is the one is a great song,i wanna be adored is as spine tingling at the start as everyone has said,i am the resurrection is overblown and cheesy but still about the only guitar solo this side of "i'm set free" that i could give a fuck about...

― robin (robin), Monday, 10 November 2003 09:03 (twenty-two years ago)

The Stone Roses are/were a top band. As for none of their subsequent output being up to much, I'd have to heartily disagree. Ian Brown's solo albums have been magnificent, Mani is doing admirably with Primal Scream, and Squire, well, maybe you have a point there.
I wouldn't take too much notice of some of the views presented on here. I do believe I read a thread lauding the power ballad!!!! Jennifer Rush, Celine Dion, Bryan Adams hahahahahahahaha.
Joeys.

― Moston (Moston), Monday, 10 November 2003 09:12 (twenty-two years ago)

There's no question that "One Love," Second Coming and the solo careers were atrocities

Well if you are just going to defend the widely acknowledged "good stuff" then yeah, what J-Rock says. And I second him giving props to the Second Coming. I think it is a brilliant album hampered by expectations. I love it, most don't, whatever.

― gspm (gspm), Monday, 10 November 2003 09:27 (twenty-two years ago)

forgot to say i've never seen why people like fools gold,its nowhere near as good as overload by the sugababes (which someone told me,after i made the comparison,reni drums on...)

― robin (robin), Monday, 10 November 2003 10:31 (twenty-two years ago)

"Second Coming" is fine too...

― mark grout (mark grout), Monday, 10 November 2003 10:37 (twenty-two years ago)

fools gold is the only semi decent track they ever recorded and if you asked i'd give you my copy for free in a blink should you even say you liked it.

― gaz (gaz), Monday, 10 November 2003 10:40 (twenty-two years ago)

both albums are very good

― stevem (blueski), Monday, 10 November 2003 10:57 (twenty-two years ago)

it's strange - there are albums i hate that are absolutely WORSHIPPED. i can sort of accept and understand that i'm just not hearing whatever it is that turns so many people on. i don't think I'm wrong to dislike it, but i feel that there's something going on which i'm just not picking up on.

The Stone Roses is different. I think it's good. I think it's full of Nice guitar-pop. I don't think I'm missing out on anything when i listen to it, though, and i've navigated it many times. i like it, but the worship doled out to it COMPLETELY baffles me, because i'm closer to being a fan than to being a hater - yet i'm still quite some way off calling it a classic. When A decent album is hailed as a work of genius, its actually a lot more baffling than when an album i find unlistenable is hailed as a work of genius.

I find the long solos hamper it a bit, on "waterfall" in particular. it's a gorgeous, uplifting pop song, which should end after a couple of minutes, then it goes into boring noodly solo mode. a crying shame.

the second coming was dire, absolute tripe except for "ten storey love song"

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Monday, 10 November 2003 10:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Second Coming is better. An 11 minute opening track with river noises is a great way to come back! 'Daybreak's' can't-be-bothered bell-bottomed phunk is wonderful - Can swooping over a Moss Side skyline. 'Straight To The Man' lopes and loafs slyly.. hell it's ALL good. Brown is a bit of an arse at times, but an arse with his heart in the right place.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Monday, 10 November 2003 11:14 (twenty-two years ago)

I think "second coming" is fukcing great! better than the first one even (and I like the first one a lot) I got into them late, b/c i was so annoyed by the hype at the time, but I still really like them, and listen to their rekkids quite a lot. I haven't much cared for anything I've heard since the split - brown's solo albums always sound a bit 1/2 assed to me, primal scream are shit, and the seahorses album was really frustrating b/c I could have imagined it being good IF THE STONE ROSES HAD RECORDED IT. I suppose I'd probably get a bit thrilled if john squire and reni were to record s.th. together. I fint the whole "glorious failure" thing w/r/t the roses that I read here and there to be really fucking annoying. I wish they'd kept it together, and "made it".

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Monday, 10 November 2003 11:18 (twenty-two years ago)

wow, what a x-post, dr c!

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Monday, 10 November 2003 11:18 (twenty-two years ago)

"she was a rum old slapper and we tried to get her pants off when she phoned..."

If the stone roses had recorded that, it would be for us all to weep....

― mark grout (mark grout), Monday, 10 November 2003 11:22 (twenty-two years ago)

maybe you are both an arse with his heart in the right place

― gaz (gaz), Monday, 10 November 2003 11:23 (twenty-two years ago)

yes but in my world of mentalism, john squire would have presented these lyrics to ian brown, and brown wd have made him write better ones.

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Monday, 10 November 2003 11:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Nice one Pash! I like the Seahosses album - Squire's a wonderful musician.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Monday, 10 November 2003 11:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Does the addition of "Fools Gold" to the US version make a big difference do you think? In my younger days, I thought the outro to "IATR" was just the perfect way to finish it.

PS I haven't listened to this album in about 2 years.

― Nick H, Monday, 10 November 2003 11:37 (twenty-two years ago)

I think the SR-hate derives from the Oasis fall-out in '98-'99; likewise hating on the Verve. All these bands were loved back in say '97; but NW arrogance has gone out of fashion. SR are plainly a cut above Embrace or Ver Verve (Simon Reynolds liked 'Bittersweet Symphony' if you need an alibi); dissing virtuosity is just dumb; yes, of course it can be dull, but all music involves technique!

Adding 'Fool's Gold' sounds like a shit idea, though -- it ends as it should on the UK version.

― Enrique (Enrique), Monday, 10 November 2003 11:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes - Fool's Gold is a completely different beast to the rest of the album. Doesn't fit in.

Best SR single : 'Elephant Stone' 12".

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Monday, 10 November 2003 11:54 (twenty-two years ago)

I can't remember the two vershes. I wuv the one that just starts 'neenawneenawneenaw' -- it was the first SR rekkid I bought. On 7", so I suppose that's a diff one. Was the 12" Peter Hook?

― Enrique (Enrique), Monday, 10 November 2003 11:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Damn straight on the Second Coming love - its a coke-charged sprawling mess of an album, shot through with amazing riffs and great vocal lines, overblown in places and undercooked in others, barely hanging together (like the band), groovy and blissed, and I fucking love it.

― Alex K (Alex K), Monday, 10 November 2003 12:43 (twenty-two years ago)

First record's great. Even the second record had its moments. What's to defend? Great stuff.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 10 November 2003 12:48 (twenty-two years ago)

I think the 7" AND the 12" are Hooky productions, aren't they?

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Monday, 10 November 2003 13:00 (twenty-two years ago)

No need defending The Stones Rose. I mean, just put on their brilliant debut, that is defense enough anyway.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Monday, 10 November 2003 13:01 (twenty-two years ago)

I think the 7" AND the 12" are Hooky productions, aren't they?

Maybe -- but there is a versh which isn't? Confusing cos Barney did Happy Mondays' 'Freaky Dancin'.

― Enrique (Enrique), Monday, 10 November 2003 13:02 (twenty-two years ago)

i think its one of those things where its what happened afterwards that clouds opinion about it, partially due to ubiquotessness, partially due to the whole britpop thing that seemed to change opinion on it. for a while the album seemed annoying and overplayed.

but ive grown to like it again now, this is the one, adored, badman, but the best is Dont Stop. however one million horrible indie night have destroyed resurrection, which is probably too over the top anyway, and the track that has dated the worst.

its possible that this is one of those records that dated badly, but has then undated again if you see what i mean.

the second coming is without merit though. as is any of squire subsequent work. brown has made something of an interesting solo career though, quite possibly against the odds

― charltonlido (gareth), Monday, 10 November 2003 14:07 (twenty-two years ago)

In the steve ray vaughan thread a lot of ppl seemed to hate him bcz of the type of thing he let out into the world and its kind of the same here: it might not be good 'criticism' but you try 'living' in a world where so many terrible bands you hear worship this record.

Its a good alb to listen to, I think (though I have said before that i hated it but that's unfair).

But the worship, like Kilian said, baffles me.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 10 November 2003 14:29 (twenty-two years ago)

A lot of stuff on the first album reminds me of the Chameleons. That's a very good thing.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 10 November 2003 15:52 (twenty-two years ago)

The Stone Roses is my favorite album of all time. The sheer number of catchy melodies on that album is just ridiculous.

― Mr. Snrub (Mr. Snrub), Monday, 10 November 2003 16:02 (twenty-two years ago)

the first record had a hold on me more than any record ever when it was released. of course no record disappointed me as much as second coming either. as a 17 year old when 'the stone roses' came out it just seemed the most perfect thing and the most perfect time ever and when they were cool and arty and mysterious, at least to someone in ann arbor, it was just magical. it's faded mostly now but the opening to waterfall still can make me tingle.

― keith (keithmcl), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 04:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, I can admit that I have the ability to thoroughly enjoy the Stone Roses every once in a while.

― cybele (cybele), Tuesday, 11 November 2003 04:57 (twenty-two years ago)

The Stone Roses were the greatest band of their day. They just missed their opportunity to be big before Nirvana et al came in, so it impacted their place in "rock" history. Plus they pissed it all away which is very romantic.
I think its a mistake to discuss music in terms of "importance" or "greatness."

― Viggles, Wednesday, 12 November 2003 06:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Four sentences to do a complete 180. I'm impressed.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 06:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Finding the debut album and a few singles in a friend's record collection (entrusted to me for a year), and listening to this stuff again after an absence of five years or so has really delighted me.

― s1utsky (slutsky), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 06:29 (twenty-two years ago)

How did I miss this thread? Hmmm... I actually must've listened to Second Coming around about the time this thread was started - Dr. C is OTM about "Daybreak" and "Breaking Into Heaven". I've always been of the opinion that "Begging You" invented Prodigy's "Firestarter" too - it's an awesome piece of music.

Obviosuly I love them pretty much unconditionally - it's an adolescence thing. The solo stuff has all been pretty appalling, and Primal Scream are marvellously hit&miss, but they probably wrote ten of my favourite 100 songs ever ("Standing Here"! "Going Down"! "Something's Burning"!). I don't think I've ever listened to another album as much as I've listened to TSR, nor probably ever will.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Sunday, 16 November 2003 15:40 (twenty-two years ago)

What some people don't seem to comprehend is that not all albums are for all people. There are classics I cannot even begin to fathom why on earth they have been ascended to the canon, through these ears. But somebody else might think them in a whole new light. And that's FINE. And refreshing to hear. As for the Stone Roses' debut, it is probably, to me, one of the most beautifully conceived works of music I've ever heard. It is practically perfect. I MEAN, WHAT ARE YOU HATERS ON? But yeah, that's it in a nutshell...

― Francis Watlington (Francis Watlington), Sunday, 16 November 2003 16:03 (twenty-two years ago)

stop it

― athos magnani (Cozen), Sunday, 16 November 2003 16:18 (twenty-two years ago)

tee hee... did I do that?

― Francis Watlington (Francis Watlington), Monday, 17 November 2003 01:53 (twenty-two years ago)

one day i will write an article about how "lions" by ian brown is the single greatest piece of music in the history of civilization

― robin (robin), Monday, 17 November 2003 02:05 (twenty-two years ago)

THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING 'BOUT! [/CAPS FOR EMPHASIS]

― Francis Watlington (Francis Watlington), Monday, 17 November 2003 02:08 (twenty-two years ago)

heard 'em on college radio today, still think they're dull as toast

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Monday, 17 November 2003 02:10 (twenty-two years ago)

toast is good depending on what you spread on it.

― hstencil, Monday, 17 November 2003 02:11 (twenty-two years ago)

hence the point of the expression "dull as toast"

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Monday, 17 November 2003 02:23 (twenty-two years ago)

he was the resurrection

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 17 November 2003 02:25 (twenty-two years ago)

i like "so young" even if it is terribly gothy

― the surface noise (electricsound), Monday, 17 November 2003 02:26 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah but that's a Suede song

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Monday, 17 November 2003 02:28 (twenty-two years ago)

i thought it was the corrs?

― robin (robin), Monday, 17 November 2003 02:29 (twenty-two years ago)

in a misery dictionary. page after page after payayge

― the surface noise (electricsound), Monday, 17 November 2003 02:30 (twenty-two years ago)

ouchers

― Francis Watlington (Francis Watlington), Monday, 17 November 2003 02:32 (twenty-two years ago)

toasted rye is not dull

― mentalist (mentalist), Monday, 17 November 2003 03:13 (twenty-two years ago)

"So Young" was the first Stone Roses single. (it's pretty awful too, I know more than one person who got turned off the band after buying TCSR and just playing the first track)

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Monday, 17 November 2003 05:39 (twenty-two years ago)

"So Young" sounds exactly like the Chameleons, there were some rather embarrassing pictures of them dressed as frilly goths (at around the same time of its release) doing the rounds at some point.

The Second coming is wildly underated, isn't there a 12" with an instrumental version of Breaking into Heaven as the b side (Love Spreads?)

― flowersdie (flowersdie), Monday, 17 November 2003 16:34 (twenty-two years ago)

"Love Spreads" was used as backround music on CSI last week and it sounded way better than I had remembered it. Perhaps it's time for me to go back and re-evaluate them.

― El Diablo Robotico (Nicole), Monday, 17 November 2003 17:26 (twenty-two years ago)

"Love Spreads" is a great song!

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 17 November 2003 17:37 (twenty-two years ago)

eight years pass...

I once asked for a Stone Roses tune at my mate's wedding @1995. The DJ shook his head and gazed into the distance. "These bands, they let you down....."

― Dr X O'Skeleton, Monday, 9 July 2012 22:48 (thirteen years ago)

Stone Roses 'atmosphere' for sale on eBay

― second dullest ILXor since 1929 (snoball), Monday, 9 July 2012 23:02 (thirteen years ago)

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