Bad Brains vs. Black Flag

(Followed by slow deterioration in quality until we got...what was the last travestity..."God Of Love"?)

Black Flag = relatively unimpeachible string of grate albs.

(Who started with a BANG, but then proceeded to get BETTER [toppling all recieved rock wisdom] as they got lower and slower.)

So, I'm givin it to the Flag.

You win the kewpie doll.

Here's my blub on misuse of the term "Influence!"

Kurt Cobain could say that he loved the White Album and that is was the greatest album ever and that every song is a classic. Jerkin'. But that doesn't make Nirvana sound like the Beatles. Nirvana still sounds like the natural progression from Black Flag and The Pixies.

So ask yourself: Who really SOUNDS like The Beatles/Stones, or used their marketing stratagies, or followed (conciously) their career paths? The Beach Boys and The Beatles influenced each other during their existance, maybe you could say that CSNY and the Neu Folk of the 70's took their singer songwriter legacy and that Prog came out of Sgt. Pepper and the concept album -- but I would contest that [the concept album came from Pet Sounds, for starters]. The truth is, very few artists, contemporary or otherwise, come to my mind. The Monkees, pre-fab or otherwise, followed the marketing. Oasis is the biggest one musically, and even then they're just being derivative. The Stones themselves were simply very good at ripping off Robert Johnson (by Richards' own admission) -- anyone who claims to be influenced by the Stones had BETTER know their music history, or be speaking in terms of image -- Bowie, for example.

Next question: Who sounds like Black Flag and/or The Bad Brains: Fugazi, early Rancid, The Misfits, The Decendants, The Melvins, The Buzzcocks, Husker Du, Agent Orange, DK, Minor Threat, The Chili Peppers, Jane's Addiction and Porno for Pyros for starters. In terms of true influence on packaging [the DIY aesthetic, selling out vs. underground etc], sound and technique, the winner goes to Black Flag/Bad Brains over the Beatles or the Stones.

The Moral: Any jerk can say that Sgt. Pepper was the first album that made them stop and listen, but that doesn't mean that your music was influenced by it.

Black Flag is a band that never sounds nearly as good as I imagine them sounding (the idea of Black Flag is always better than the actual thing), except perhaps in the pre-Rollins years. The Bad Brains "prime" was pretty short, but I don't think there was ever a hardcore band with better chops all the way around...they played those gospel beats viscous as Sabbath at fifteen times the speed and the vocals were just totally manaical. The dub stuff is filler but, eh...

Turbonegro on the Bad Brains: Happy Tom remembers: "So there we were backstage with our black faces and wigs and little hats, smoking pot with our all-time heroes the Bad Brains, and the absurdity just didn't cross our minds. I mean, those guys didn't mention it, they were probably just embarrassed on our behalf."

Turbonegro on Black Flag (sorta): Bongo: "Have you heard about Turbonegers private beer-game, the Rollins-game? You sit with a bunch of beers and put on Henry Rollins latest album and every time he says "Youuuu" (pronounced in the typical muscled-up Rollins fashion) you have to drink a beer."

The Misfits are better than both, though. And the Angry Samoans are the best of all. Don't get me started on DK, I fucking hate them more than the Beatles. Jello is a whiny imbecile.

JM said:

Who sounds like Black Flag and/or The Bad Brains: Fugazi, early Rancid, The Misfits, The Decendants, The Melvins, The Buzzcocks, Husker Du, Agent Orange, DK, Minor Threat, The Chili Peppers, Jane's Addiction and Porno for Pyros for starters. In terms of true influence on packaging [the DIY aesthetic, selling out vs. underground etc], sound and technique, the winner goes to Black Flag/Bad Brains over the Beatles or the Stones.

so: black flag (who i don't even really like all that much) (and whose really good album, as another thread recently demonstrated, was nowhere near as great as, say, the sex pistols' great album)

otm btw

also otm btw. (and i also don't see how "influencing" a quarter century's worth of useless garbage is a recommendation, by the way.)

Which one, The First Four Years?

So, so wrong. And I love Flipper.

so i'll just say minor threat!

ah, screw it. MISFITS

i have no hate for the original dead kennedys. not ashamed to admit i love "fresh fruit for rotting vegetables".

but the margins are close. Bad Brains also lose points for (allegedly) stealing pot from the Big Boys.

-- xhuxk (fakemai...), June 21st, 2006.

I don't think there was a vote count but didn't the majority go to Damaged? I remember only because I was a bit surprised...

>The First Four Years?<

Ok, good point. One good album and one better anthology.

And they did inspire some useful garbage too, I admit it. But that still doesn't make them better than the Rolling Stones or Beatles.

I love the Dead Kennedys though. And pretty much every other band mentioned thus far.

Black Flag have their moments, but I've always felt it seemed like you had to be there.

Then again, "My War" kicks my ass too.

Bad Brains are great, don't get me wrong.

25 years ago today in hardcore history...

new york rocker 50th edition march(?)or may 1982 = black flag & bad brains tandem cover. here's the bad brains interview by some nerd.

www.30underdc.com/bands/badbrains/int_nyr50.html

also, I know Henry Rollins is sort of recognizable now or something, which makes him not punk, but anyone other than him on vocals is stupid. The guy from that Decline of Western Civilization movie was awful.

besides, it's bad brains. considering all the hardcore bands were the same with different production, bad brains had the best production. they understood that the guitars should be a wall of tin for the vocals to be on top of and for the thick drums to be underneath. this is why the ramones worked (not to discredit their melodies, of course). I'm drunk but believe this to be true. also bad brains had a great ear for the beat.

CHAVO WAS GREAT FUCK YOU

I think you should stop drinking, filthy dylan

revive!!!!!!!!

man oh man where did dave q go

I loathe the Dead Kennedys, best DK moment was watching one of them (not Jello) get beat up in SF once by a 300-pound transvestite

<3

I need to ask around again where he's off to...

I get Black Flag songs stuck in my head more than Bad Brains songs. I'd probably prefer a Bad Brains show though. Also, did Black Flag ever have any riffs that could fuck with Re{gnition?

bad brains

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAJYARIngtg

i mean, the way that song just fucking explodes is all-time for me

Black Flag by a landslide according to Tumblr.

I choose Bad Brains, but I will also take the opportunity to warn against seeing them live these days. They were astonishingly terrible when I saw them a few weeks ago. HR seems unwell.

both

Black Flag is a band that never sounds nearly as good as I imagine them sounding (the idea of Black Flag is always better than the actual thing), except perhaps in the pre-Rollins years. The Bad Brains "prime" was pretty short, but I don't think there was ever a hardcore band with better chops all the way around...they played those gospel beats viscous as Sabbath at fifteen times the speed and the vocals were just totally manaical. The dub stuff is filler but, eh...

Kris otm 22 years ago. A person who has never heard either band will hear Rollins era Flag and say "I guess you had to've been there." A person who's never heard Bad Brains will hear Rock for Light and say "holy shit."

I'm listening to My War for the first time right now. Bad Brains later? Let's ser

SEE

no offence to the grunge/sludge/doom communities but my war is such a slog and that's even before you get to the sloggiest part

a lot of their stuff is technically good but they have such an ugly macho self loathing hall of mirrors vibe all the time and I can't be bothered to work out what level of irony they're on with it each time

I will always favour bad brains s/t and no other punk or hardcore hits quite as hard as FVK, I, pay to cum, banned in DC, etc

and there is something so simple yet powerful about the vibe shift in and out or the reggae tracks (punks who talk shit about the reggae tracks are full of shit - I don't know any other punk band whose reggae tracks are actually reggae tracks and I've heard far too many attempts for a lifetime)

I know they would have called me degenerate faggot whore or something in the 80s but at least they would have actually meant it a lot more than your typical punk edgelord who threw around slurs. I'm well aware that this is a terrible argument

imago - Slip It In, Loose Nut, and In My Head are all better than My War b/c Ginn isn't pretending to be a bass player on them

also god I hope I get to yell at Chuck Eddy to his face some day, nothing worse than a critic who thinks there was no good punk music after 1983, just inexcusable ignorance and prejudice.

you know what kira is actually the best thing about black flag

otm about critics, this was especially true in the UK when I was actually giving any credence to what music critics thought about anything (the 90s) - they would just about allow some of the early 80s US stuff (like Black Flag and Bad Brains just to keep it on topic) but any UK punk after 1979/when the Roxy closed down/31 Dec 1977/when the Clash signed to CBS was routinely dismissed

I prefer My War to Slip It In though. My War > Loose Nut > Slip It In > In My Head I reckon

you know what kira is actually the best thing about black flag

this is the truest thing by far -- Ginn is just not very good! he plays a lot, but he never gets any better -- it's not like he's incompetent, but his ideas aren't great -- he's at his best when he just gets sludgy, I think that's where his heart really is. his fast shit is really not good HC! just imo obv, for many people that music is good but to me like there's just so much better hardcore from that time. Flag has iconic imagery & a charismatic if lunkheaded frontman, real good live at their peak, but, like, nah really. But Kira's project Dos is really good! The comeback album, Dos y Dos, is just wonderful -- meandering, contemplative, just cool and weird -- two basses basically doing counterpoint pieces!

Dukwoski really gets slighted by history he's as much a figure in the band's history as Ginn, or almost

me myself, I'd argue the First Four Years stuff is the most vital stuff they did, pre Rollins

also agreed that Ginn is the ultimate eyes bigger than his stomach guitar player of all time, though sometimes it works great

Slip It In is my favorite album and it's mostly because Kira and Bill are on fire throughout.

I also love Dos, ftr

While both bands had lots of members with Bad Brains there really is only one classic lineup.

Joan Crawford's abiding hatred of Greg Ginn, the Beach Boys and CCR is a gift that keeps on giving. Why does he hate California lol

The best thing Black Flag did was basically create Indie touring in the US. And Dukowski did that. I agree with Joan Crawford Loves Chachi’s take on their music. But I think the reason they will always be thought of as an influential band is their business model.

"me myself, I'd argue the First Four Years stuff is the most vital stuff they did, pre Rollins"

for me too. that stuff is awesome. i really don't like rollins. he had a great look and stage presence but - and this might be weird to say about a punk singer - he had a terrible voice. its just ugly in a bad way. there were so many great hardcore singers. he was not one of them.

i have some nostalgic fondness for Loose Nut. i used to play that album a lot back then. and i saw them on that tour or the tour after. that was the time that they punished the crowd by having painted willie and gone open the show. ugh. i went with my friends from the straightedge band Wide Awake and my friend who played guitar in that band worshipped greg ginn. he stood as close to ginn as he could just so he could watch him play. they were fun though. they knew how to do it live for sure.

i also think that rollins was just bad timing-wise. awkward. clunky. probably why he gravitated to slower, sludgier stuff where he could be more, uh, free. there were non-musician hardcore singers who just killed it speed-wise. and i still listen to them. can't say i listen to black flag much unless its the really old stuff. (damaged definitely a cool bomb blast of a record but i can't help but think how much cooler it would have been with someone else singing.....)

i've always preferred the 81 Dez demos of the Damaged stuff, despite the sound quality

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGJGTEWizgo

way better.

Hey “Don’t Bother Me” is Bad Brains’ number four track on Spotify. That’s the leveling effect of streaming working correctly! A song that makes me feel like a gallon of Sherwin-Williams jittering in the paint mixer.

Joan Crawford's abiding hatred of Greg Ginn, the Beach Boys and CCR is a gift that keeps on giving. Why does he hate California lol

I like Saint Vitus and Megadeth and Slayer!

probably hates Hampton Hawes too...

i think i missed out on the ccr hate and i don't even want to know about it...

I just can't stand the way John Fogerty sings, and he does sing a lot on CCR records, so I don't really enjoy them. They're fine. Hampton Hawes is groovy no doubt, I love west coast jazz.

but ppl who love CCR will really get very excited making the case for them. not as severely as beach boys nerds, who are the actual worst, but creedence dudes are very "how could anyone not love creedence?"

Hampton Hawes is groovy no doubt, I love west coast jazz.

If nothing else, you owe it to yourself to read his autobiography, Raise Up Off Me, which is one of the great jazz books and one of the great drug books, all at once.

Fwiw my Black Flag ordering was assuming The First Four Years > Damaged > those other records

(I love CCR)

Tbh you can blame Lydia Lunch for that

Hey JCLC, thanks for the Dos tip, they're great!
Such a free and joyful sound... and I love Kira's voice too... good stuff...

Kira sings on this goofy cover! (I prefer it to the original)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ov0zEYZakLI

Ha!