Represent: Your Favorite Track Off Of New Order - Substance 1987

"You're a real...UP person."

I was playing it again last week for the first time in ages and I'd forgotten how much I love it all.

Favorite track on Substance, I don't think I could call it, but I'd probably go with "Ceremony".

Disc 2: "1963"

Should have been a poll, but "Blue Monday" obv.

Confusion!

The LP is only disc one, though, so I haven't heard the others for years (the tape had them on). I used to like 1963.

From the discussion above, NO's discography is much more confusing than I realised. I REALLY want to hear that earlier version of Temptation.

SUBCULTURE! Mostly because it's the song most improved from its album mix.

Guys, Geir:

The XFAC73 NewOrder Poll (Closing 25-May-2007)

The FAC73 NewOrder Poll (Closing 25-May-2007)

well 'true faith' because of the chorus

i find a lot of the material on 'substance' a chore to listen to

I'm not sure what it is -- I didn't really "grow up" w this record like some in these parts.

But as satisfying as Substance is on several levels, I'm still finding a lot of it hamstrung by its 80s production values -- drum machines that lack texture, sequences and programs that tend to plod rather than enervate.

Dan Selzer has said elsewhere on ILM that some of that can be attributed to NO's modernist tendencies -- the band's willfully crude use of sampling, etc. I respect his opinion and he knows a shit ton more than I do about New Order.

But while that definitely applies to records like Technique, I don't think it does to Substance, where there's really not much of a justification for it -- it's not like you're hearing the ex-Joy Division guys reveling in primitive synthesizer technology on, say, "Shellshock" or even "Perfect Kiss" (which on many levels I really love, btw). Often, you're hearing remixes done by other people and sounds (digital bongos, synth blasts) that went the way of the dodo for good reason. Regardless, in a lot of cases, they're simply not being deployed with much creativity or even a charming naivety.

Yes, a HUGE part of New Order's appeal is their willingness to embarrass themselves -- My I've arguedmore bands should do it today, because it creates a tension that modern production values (and their accessibility to anyone with a computer) tend to relieve. But I think there's a pretty good case to be made (on Substance anyway) it's not always occurring on purpose...and not always that appealing either.

(goddamn URL link)

I'm not sure what you're saying, Matthew – the songs are mostly great; too bad the production's crude?

Also: "the much-reviled Stephen Hague"?? By whom? Neil Tennant made the pithiest remark about "True Faith": NO tamed, beautifully, by Stephen Hague. The best new song ever recorded for a comp?

Substance has two moments I hate: the '87 remix of "Confusion" which everyone but me prefers to the starker, hookier, cool original; and the "Subculture" remix. Otherwise it's next to godliness.

btw I'm delighted you've come around to Technique.

disc 1 is dang solid (let's just not think about "Shellshock"/"State Of The Nation" cuz frankly there's really no reason too)

Agreed that "Shellshock" & "State of the Nation" are both dire

WTF PEOPLE

"Shellshock" is my favorite. seriously :-(

the first two minutes of "Shellshock" – vulgar, improvisatory, thrilling – contain everything I love about New Order.

Not a fan of that "Confusion" remix either -- in large part b/c I just don't like the punterish "CONFUSION!!!"

The songs are mostly great -- and when the production works ("Thieves Like Us" comes to mind), it works really well. But a lot of the time, it comes off less crude--which I can respect--than generic, which I can't. Tossed off, almost. And there's aspects of that strewn throughout Substance -- from great songs ("Perfect Kiss," which is almost prog in its structure) to crappy ones ("State of the Nation").

As for Hague, there's a lot of crap said about him in another thread -- in large part b/c of Republic, I think.

And as noted above, I love "Shellshock."

I also hate the "Confusion" remake, the "Temptation" remake, the "Subculture" remix, and the "State of the Nation" single entirely. Everything else is godhead, but if I were discovering them today (like you, Matthew), I would buy that Singles comp before Substance.

YES, I know you get all the cool B's with Substance, but on Singles you get all the originals, plus "Procession" in its rightful place of the running order, and the mastering is far far far far better.

In retrospect, I should have told you to hold off and buy that, Matt, but I seem to recall you didn't pay much for Substance anyway, and it wouldn't be a trip to Cleveland if you didn't come home with some used CDs, would it?

OH, and if I had to pick a favorite -- "Thieves Like Us" by a nose.

<i>I also hate the "Confusion" remake, the "Temptation" remake, the "Subculture" remix, and the "State of the Nation" single entirely.</i>

Even having only got into this over the last month, I pretty much agree with this entirely.

Good lord I hate BBcode.

Disc 1 best single-artist comp ever?

so last night in a state of booze enhancement, i ordered the 2cd edition of substance.
my original experience of this comp was a cassette edition that i believe was different.
however, my question is : are there massive volume differences between tracks ?
i ordered via amazon and so got a nice and lovely free mp3 edition.
but, damn, the volume levels between certain tracks is insane (confused > lonesome tonight being the most noticeable).
is this just part of the release, or, once i have the cd edition will these differences level out ?

probably some of the mp3s are taken from remastered (and much hotter) greatest hits that have been release since substance, and the quiet ones are taken from the original substance release. the CD won't be like that.

To quote a non-ILX friend who would absolutely know:

It’s coming. Announcement tomorrow. The 4th disc is a show from Irvine Meadows in 1987 where they played Substance in order, and has long been one of my favorite bootlegs.

It indeed being a fancy edition of Substance. Not sure what the third disc has yet.

And we do have some details:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CHV27J7G

Disc: 1
1 Ceremony (Version 2) [2019 Remaster]
2 Everythings Gone Green (2019 Remaster)
3 Temptation '87 (2023 Remaster)
4 Blue Monday (2020 Remaster)
5 Confusion '87 (2023 Remaster)
6 Thieves Like Us (2020 Remaster)
7 The Perfect Kiss (2022 Remaster)
8 Sub-culture (John Robie Remix) [Substance Edit] [2023 Remaster]
9 Shellshock (Substance Edit) [2023 Remaster]
10 State of the Nation (2023 Remaster)
11 Bizarre Love Triangle (Shep Pettibone Remix) [2023 Remaster]
12 True Faith (2023 Digital Master)

Disc: 2
1 In a Lonely Place (2019 Remaster)
2 Procession (2015 Remaster)
3 Cries and Whispers (2019 Remaster)
4 Hurt (Substance Edit) [2023 Remaster]
5 The Beach (2020 Remaster)
6 Confusion (Instrumental) [2020 Remaster]
7 Lonesome Tonight (2020 Remaster)
8 Murder (2020 Remaster)
9 Thieves like Us (Instrumental) [2020 Remaster]
10 The Kiss Of Death (2022 Remaster)
11 Shame of the Nation (2023 Remaster)
12 1963 (2023 Digital Master)

Disc: 3
1 Ceremony (Version 1) [2019 Remaster]
2 Mesh (2019 Remaster)
3 Temptation (2018 Remaster)
4 Confusion (2020 Remaster)
5 Perfect Pit (2022 Remaster)
6 Dub-Vulture (John Robie Remix) [2022 Remaster]
7 Shellcock (2022 Remaster)
8 Bizarre Dub Triangle (Shep Pettibone Remix)
9 True Dub (Shep Pettibone Remix) [2023 Remaster]
10 Confusion Dub '87 (2023 Remaster)
11 True Faith (Shep Pettibone Remix) [2023 Digital Master]

Disc: 4
1 Ceremony (Live at Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987)
2 Everythings Gone Green (Live at Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987)
3 Temptation (Live at Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987)
4 Blue Monday (Live at Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987)
5 Confusion (Live at Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987)
6 Thieves Like Us (Live at Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987)
7 The Perfect Kiss (Substance Edit) [Live at Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987]
8 Sub-culture (Substance Edit) [Live at Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987]
9 Shellshock (Substance Edit) [Live at Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987]
10 State of the Nation (Live at Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987)
11 Bizarre Love Triangle (Live at Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987)
12 True Faith (Live at Irvine Meadows, San Bernadino California, September 1987)

(I would like to note at this point that Irvine Meadows was in fact in, you know, Irvine and not San Bernadino.)

Was listening to my old vinyl copy of this last night and marvelling that it was out of print (and commanding silly money. One of the most iconic compilations of all time! Wild.

Re OP question. The vinyl answer is Thieves Like Us, and the CD answer is the instrumental version of Thieves Like Us.

Incidentally though I do wonder if its true format is the double cassette in the wide box?

Out again in November, expanded to 4cds with the b sides from the tape and a live set

https://store.neworder.com/gb/new-order/substance/

Ah, this seems like the one New Order thread I don’t have bookmarked. Apologies for the redundant post!

So presumably, from its lack of inclusion on a bonus disc, The Perfect Kiss is the full 12" version this time (maximum length of CDs being greater than it was in 1987). Maybe they should have included the edit with 44 second cut off as a rarity on the other discs, lol.

(I would like to note at this point that Irvine Meadows was in fact in, you know, Irvine and not San Bernadino.)

The first NO show I saw was in 1985, at the now-defunct Rainbow Music Hall in Denver. It consistently comes up in tour lists and setlists as "Boulder," which of course is another town entirely and not really close enough for confusion.

And picking my favorite track off of this comp is like picking my favorite child. That said, I'll go with "True Faith" just because it was released with the original version of this comp.

I think it's quite easy to pick a favorite child!

this is true but the secret is you don't tell your other children

No, the secret is to let each of them think she or he is the favorite.

g00gl3pr00f your favourite Substance track in case the others are namesearching

I like Ceremony more than my least favorite child

SubstanceSuccession

what do I get out of this?

that's a buzzcocks song, not new order

So Bernard is . . . Kendall?

Sounds about right.

I kind of think they should have put Touched by the Hand of God on it - last Factory single, same year and always feels like the end of that chapter to me. Plus there's a good rare mix of it, I seem to recall.

What am I talking about, "last Factory single"?? Last err.. standalone Factory single.

I wondered why they had omitted it.

yeah it's like a forgotten song to me

I would allow it on a bonus disc but Substance 1987 ending with True Faith is perfect and essential.

(On a related note, Standing On A Beach should end with the single mix of Close To Me, and the CD tracklisting that includes A Night Like This is monstrous)

We have an answer from 50poundnote (aka the person behind the Recycle blog some time back):

TBTHOG 12” will be released alongside State Of The Nation and Bizarre Love Triangle with the Brotherhood definitive box next year. Yes, it’s out of order, but all the Salvation! Soundtrack material will be in that box, and that’s where TBTHOG originated. All this info comes directly from the archivist.

It doesn't have anything to do with Substance though and I feel it would interrupt the integrity of the boxset.

Also it aint all that.

First person i ever heard say Thieves Like Us was their favourite song? Jason Donovan, in an interview with Smash Hits in '89. He was holding up Substance on vinyl in the accompanying photo.

touch was released after substance

Touched by The Hand of God is one of the weaker singles (I like it, but its pleasures are more subtle).

And, if they want to make a "2 Substance" then they can start with "Touched ..." and carry on from there.

there aren't a lot of non-album singles after that though

dug out the Touched 12” and yeah it is lesser NO but they were so fuckin mighty at that point that it still totally rules, just the sheer vibe of it is unimpeachable, what a band

dug out the Touched 12” and yeah it is lesser NO but they were so fuckin mighty at that point that it still totally rules, just the sheer vibe of it is unimpeachable, what a band