What's Jean Grae's beef with Oliver Wang?

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She awards him a "bitch ass" shout in the liner notes to "The Bootleg of the Bootleg EP" and accuses him of not knowing "what gangsta is." What's the story here?

Alternately, feel free to use this thread to discuss the awesomosity of the album in question.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Friday, 14 November 2003 18:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Read his review of Attack of the Attacking Things on amazon.com.

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Friday, 14 November 2003 18:22 (twenty-one years ago)

Also, why do I keep thinking "Oliver Wang" is a dirty-minded nom de plume?

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Friday, 14 November 2003 18:23 (twenty-one years ago)

dude that's such a namby-pamby and sorta-nice review!

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Friday, 14 November 2003 18:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Doesn't she also say "Smack Northern State," or something like that?

― Diablo Villaboblo (Andy K), Friday, 14 November 2003 18:31 (twenty-one years ago)

This is worse than Em picking on Triumph the Insult Comic Dog!

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Friday, 14 November 2003 18:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Haha, Northern State is so shitty.

― ddrake, Friday, 14 November 2003 18:38 (twenty-one years ago)

She's so gangsta pale skinny music crits don't wanna fuck with her.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Friday, 14 November 2003 18:39 (twenty-one years ago)

so gutter village hipsters fall in love with her.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Friday, 14 November 2003 18:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Editorial Reviews
From URB Magazine
Ever since her days as What What from Natural Resource, we had Jean Grae pegged as the Lauryn of the crew. But who knew her solo career would take half a decade to drop? With Attack of the Attacking Things . . . The Dirty Mixes, Grae finally steps off the cameo circuit with an album that reflects her vaunted lyrical talent but isn't quite a magnum opus.
At 10 full songs, this is one of the shortest albums since Illmatic, but such brevity demands a focus that Attack can't consistently deliver. At times, Grae, blessed with one of the best flows on either side of the gender line, drops awkward lines and ill-fitting couplets. The bigger problem is the production — lackluster tracks by Masta Ace and Nasain Nahmeen create a three-song pile-up early on that stifles Grae's gifts. Add in some strange skits recorded over the phone and Attack begins to sound more like Retreat. It takes the Beatminerz to free things up with "Love Song," a sublime, soulful affair that strikes exactly the right mood for Grae's autobiographical reflections on her complex relationship history.
The last third of the album is where it all comes together. Grae's never sounded slicker on cuts like the intelligent player's anthem "Get It," followed by "KNOCK," an ice-cold braggadocio joint, both of which are well scored by Nahmeen and Mr. Len, respectively. Grae closes powerfully with the confessional "Live 4 U" and touching elegy "Fadeout," ending Attack on the kind of lasting note that we always knew she could deliver.

Oliver Wang

FYI, Oliver Wang is a really good critic, in that he actually knows shit about hip hop. That said, I disagree with him a fair amount.

― ddrake, Friday, 14 November 2003 18:42 (twenty-one years ago)

when did "reflects her vaunted lyrical talent but isn't quite a magnum opus" become fightin' words?

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Friday, 14 November 2003 18:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Its not like he even said she wasn't the future of rock or anything.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Friday, 14 November 2003 18:44 (twenty-one years ago)

There's got to be something more to this beef than we know.

― ddrake, Friday, 14 November 2003 18:45 (twenty-one years ago)

maybe he's threatening to bring her ninja tune recordings to light

― vahid (vahid), Friday, 14 November 2003 18:47 (twenty-one years ago)

dude i would be psyched if somebody famous wrote me into their liner notes! even if it was to say 'i don't know what gangsta is' (which i admittedly don't!)

― geeta (geeta), Friday, 14 November 2003 18:47 (twenty-one years ago)

But Jean Grae isn't really "famous" is she? (Note: I'm just trying to get a mention on her next album--"Keith Harris, you don't know what famous is!"

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Friday, 14 November 2003 19:14 (twenty-one years ago)

not liner notes--lyrics of song!

― M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 14 November 2003 19:27 (twenty-one years ago)

You know, Keith, one time I did hear you get dissed on a live freestyle with some of the Rhymesayers posse on Radio K's Saturday afternoon Beatbox show. They had a bunch of guys going over a beat for about 10 minutes, but I remember hearing one of them end a line with "You're wacker than Keith Harris from the City Pages."

This was a few years ago, but still thought it might cheer you up.

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 14 November 2003 19:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Matt, that made my day! The best thing is that probably not a single person listening knew who the hell they were talking about.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Friday, 14 November 2003 19:54 (twenty-one years ago)

lyrics of song = EVEN COOLER!

― geeta (geeta), Friday, 14 November 2003 20:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, they at least could have taken a shot at Simon Peter Groebner! I'm sure I was the only one, but it sure made me chuckle on my way to Target.

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 14 November 2003 20:09 (twenty-one years ago)

it's harder to think up rhymes with 'groebner' though

― geeta (geeta), Friday, 14 November 2003 20:12 (twenty-one years ago)

lubed her?
cancer is what my pubes cure?
shot some bullets through that dude's fur...coat/I'm dope/throw you in the moat/etc....
Am I on quaaludes? Sure!

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 14 November 2003 20:15 (twenty-one years ago)

There have got to be a lot of rhymes for "Jon Bream"

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Friday, 14 November 2003 20:19 (twenty-one years ago)

"loved her"--it's pronounced "Grub'ner" (how about "guv'nor"? then they'd have to be British, though...)

― M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 14 November 2003 20:24 (twenty-one years ago)

(I think it's pronounced "grub'ner"--am I mistaken?)

― M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 14 November 2003 20:27 (twenty-one years ago)

That's how I've always heard it. I guess it's easier in any case to rhyme with City Pages.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Friday, 14 November 2003 20:34 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm going to be writing a not-very-positive review of some indie rap dudes in the next couple of weeks and I really hope they get so mad at me that they namedrop me in a dis -- because I'm 98% sure they'll mispronounce my name.

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Friday, 14 November 2003 21:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Are you going to complain that their album isn't quite a magnum opus?

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Friday, 14 November 2003 21:04 (twenty-one years ago)

No, I'm going to call it "dollar-store Cage"

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Friday, 14 November 2003 21:05 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm surprised y'all don't remember this lyric from Phull Circle:

You've got a Biblical name like Simon Peter Groebner
Your coat's too fake to ever be dubbed fur

I'm pretty sure Oliver Wang called this line "clunky" in a review for Minnesota Monthly.

― dylan (dylan), Friday, 14 November 2003 21:08 (twenty-one years ago)

I always thought it was Gr-ebb-ner. I suppose that's another reason I don't write about hip-hop. Um, besides the fact that I know little about it.

― Kate Silver (Kate Silver), Friday, 14 November 2003 21:28 (twenty-one years ago)

O-Dub gets people worked up, I guess:

http://www.stinkzone.com/cgi-bin/archives/000051.html

I always thought he was one of the most logical, benevolent (hip hop) writers out there.

― scott m (mcd), Friday, 14 November 2003 21:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Kate Silver, you don't know what gangsta is.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Friday, 14 November 2003 21:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Jon Bream = gangsta

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 14 November 2003 21:38 (twenty-one years ago)

I just remembered that the previously cited Groebner line actually came from an MC Skat Cat bootleg. I'd be willing to burn a copy for anyone who's interested.

― dylan (dylan), Friday, 14 November 2003 21:58 (twenty-one years ago)

the words "mc skat kat bootleg" have broken my brain

― geeta (geeta), Friday, 14 November 2003 22:01 (twenty-one years ago)

You know, it occurs to me that I could just email Oliver. That would be the working journalist type thing to do...

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Friday, 14 November 2003 22:03 (twenty-one years ago)

I just remembered that the previously cited Groebner line actually came from an MC Skat Cat bootleg. I'd be willing to burn a copy for anyone who's interested.

THIS IS THE PART OF THE THREAD WHERE MY HEAD EXPLODES! Groebner reference? MC Skat Kat bootleg? Wha? Where did you get this? Cartoon rappers have bootlegs? I don't understand.

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 14 November 2003 22:04 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm very curious...

― Kate Silver (Kate Silver), Friday, 14 November 2003 22:08 (twenty-one years ago)

(haha this has turned into the fucking Mpls rockcrit thread! Melissa, Pete, et al to thread!)

― M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 14 November 2003 22:13 (twenty-one years ago)

I might have dreamed the whole thing. Now that I sense a market for such an item, though, I might make a few phone calls.

Possible liner notes:

Thanks to all my fans who stuck by me through the rough times. I want to give a shout-out to God, who hooked me up with all the best animators. Much love also to Paula (drop me a line!). Confidential to Oliver Wang: Thanks for all the support, see you at the Understanding Gangsta Seminar

-Skat Cat

― dylan (dylan), Friday, 14 November 2003 22:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Patrick Reusse to thread!

also Undertstanding Gangsta Seminar is a song on the next Guided by Voices album

dylan, you are a Skat Kat tease! *sulks*

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 14 November 2003 22:19 (twenty-one years ago)

I think I attended an Understanding Gangsta Seminar in Madison a couple summers ago.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Friday, 14 November 2003 22:19 (twenty-one years ago)

One of my funniest live hip-hop experiences came at a KDWB Summer Jam show at the Target Center. Fabolous asked a room full of high school blondes from Edina "Is Minnesota keepin' it gangsta?" and they answered with the loudest, cutest, Mickey-Mouse-Clubbish "Yeah" they could muster.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Friday, 14 November 2003 22:24 (twenty-one years ago)

I worked as a cook at a restaurant with this 18 year old waitress from Stillwater who was really into Tupac. She and her friends nicknamed their hometown "Killwater."

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 14 November 2003 22:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Killwater, ha! I'm glad this thread is now indecipherable to anyone who hasn't lived in Minnesota.

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Friday, 14 November 2003 22:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Sweet! Now that those other losers are gone we can talk about how good the Suburbs are!

Did you hear the new Martin Zellar record?

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 14 November 2003 22:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Curtiss A where are YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOU?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 14 November 2003 23:00 (twenty-one years ago)

hosting the annual John Lennon tribute at First Avenue

― M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 14 November 2003 23:01 (twenty-one years ago)

Skipping 108 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

Oh, and Jesus Chrysler Supercar, and Elephants Gerald. I think that's about it.

― Kate Silver (Kate Silver), Monday, 17 November 2003 20:11 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm so behind. that's what working at First Avenue for 3 years and then moving away four years ago will do to you.

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 17 November 2003 20:25 (twenty-one years ago)

were stockcar named desire local? good name, never heard them.

the vibrochamps.

oh and let's not forget our latest apparent export, har mar.

― typo acapulco (gcannon), Monday, 17 November 2003 20:30 (twenty-one years ago)

exported to the hot tubs of Ibiza

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 17 November 2003 20:31 (twenty-one years ago)

whatever, i can't hate. he pulled it off i guess. i'm sure his vodka commercial is pretty funny.

― typo acapulco (gcannon), Monday, 17 November 2003 20:33 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm not hating, just sort of amused at the nature of his celebrity as a dance-music guy when that's not really his scene musically

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 17 November 2003 20:34 (twenty-one years ago)

ha well i've hated before. i'd heard he was Getting Famous Over There and never quite believed it (popbitch notwithstanding), but i was killing time in the borders downtown, flipped through an nme, and there he was, talking about a commercial he did.

― typo acapulco (gcannon), Monday, 17 November 2003 20:41 (twenty-one years ago)

thing is, he does have a great voice.

― typo acapulco (gcannon), Monday, 17 November 2003 20:42 (twenty-one years ago)

last xmas i was at grumpy's and heard/saw him karaoke elton's "your song"--hadn't realized how good his voice is till then. i like the last sean na na record, too.

― M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 17 November 2003 20:45 (twenty-one years ago)

For a relaxing time: http://www.vladivar.com/ads.html

― Kate Silver (Kate Silver), Monday, 17 November 2003 20:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Anyone know if the Hang Ups are still together?

― d.w., Monday, 17 November 2003 21:33 (twenty-one years ago)

yep, they just put out a new record in the last week, or two. It's great!

― Kate Silver (Kate Silver), Monday, 17 November 2003 21:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Any news on the Owls record, Kate?

― Keith Harris (kharris1128), Monday, 17 November 2003 21:38 (twenty-one years ago)

one month passes...

I just wanted to bring this back to say that the new Kruddler record is really good....there is a song about math (but it's not math rock) and a song about Sasquatch exploring Canada.

also, check for The Stunning in 2004....they are a new mpls rock band and they are like the name says....they have two split singles coming out in

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 19 December 2003 18:16 (twenty-one years ago)

four weeks pass...

Ok, this is following up REAL late but hey, I didn't even know this thread existed (Keith - did you ever email me)?

The story is this: it's all about the review in URB. She was angry at me for saying that her album was like...I dunno...the Illmatic for her generation. And she wrote me (via my editor at URB) a funny, pissy note where I made the mistake of responding, "hey, if you want to get at me, you'll have to get in line behind PUTS who dissed me on their last album, how gangsta." Clearly, I was being flippant and joking with her since I assumed, she was joking with me when she wrote that I'd catch a beat down if she ever saw me on the street.

That's where the liner notes shout, "you don't know gangsta is" came from even though it's really Jean saying, "I don't have a sense of humor."

When Indie Rappers Attack! Just for the record, this is the third time I've been dissed, on record, by an indie rapper. 1) People Under the Stairs, 2) Louis Logic, 3) Jean Grae. I want Ego Trip to create a new category for me when they update The Book of Rap Lists.

Word!

Oliver

― Oliver Wang, Friday, 16 January 2004 21:25 (twenty-one years ago)

oops I meant, of course, that I did NOT say "Attack of the Attacking Things" was the Illmatic for her generation.

― Oliver Wang (Oliver Wang), Friday, 16 January 2004 21:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Hmm, she does seem to have a problem with criticism, based on some of her lines on Bootleg of the Bootleg. Which i like a great deal, even if sometimes she rushes too many words/lines into her verses, obscuring her flow.
Still, she is talented...seems odd that she'd be so upset over what seems a small slight. btw, lucky you didn't say that her album was Illmatic for her gen. And isn't she about the same age as Nas anyway? I was surprised to hear e's only just 30 or something.

― paulhw (paulhw), Friday, 16 January 2004 21:35 (twenty-one years ago)

Wow! Louis Logic....I have a good 12 inch by him...is he still around? What did he say about you?

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 16 January 2004 21:40 (twenty-one years ago)

also, Oliver, feel free to talk about any obscure Minneapolis rock bands you'd like to give a shout out to.

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 16 January 2004 21:42 (twenty-one years ago)

don't feel too bad about PUTS having beef against you, they have beef against me and i'm a nobody

― JaXoN (JasonD), Friday, 16 January 2004 21:47 (twenty-one years ago)

and PUTS are no good. they're not gangsta enough for even the most conscious backpacker...

― paulhw (paulhw), Friday, 16 January 2004 22:09 (twenty-one years ago)

Louis Logic is still around - just dropped an album this past summer (Sinamatic). You need to listen to the song "Fair Weather Fan", second set of verses.

― Oliver Wang (Oliver Wang), Friday, 16 January 2004 22:12 (twenty-one years ago)

People Under the Stairs have beef with Harry Potter, because he stole their bedroom.

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 16 January 2004 22:19 (twenty-one years ago)

PUTS is the sole reason I stopped trusting most releases on OM records. (Even though, I should have been losing trust since the El Stew album)

― donut bitch (donut), Friday, 16 January 2004 22:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Do you have to have read Harry Potter to get M@tt's joke?

― paulhw (paulhw), Friday, 16 January 2004 22:22 (twenty-one years ago)

(I phrased that badly.. I LOVED the El Stew album, so everything after that seemed like a disappointment)

― donut bitch (donut), Friday, 16 January 2004 22:38 (twenty-one years ago)

What's wrong with PUTS? I think every one of the albums is good, but then again I give no importance to lyrical quality.
I didn't even catch them dissing you.

― oops (Oops), Friday, 16 January 2004 23:15 (twenty-one years ago)

I wanna know what Oliver thinks of Salamander*! (OK, I don't, really.)

*late-90s noise-folk-psych band, broke up ages ago, OK if you're into whorling sheets-of-feedback type stuff

― M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 16 January 2004 23:33 (twenty-one years ago)

my best friend went to highshcool with PUTS, so i've been around them a bunch in my life. the beef 6yrs old and is about some supposedly unpaid dinner check that i really did pay. Thes just likes to hold beefs. Double K is just not really that nice. (i'm totally gonna get googled and see them again and have more beef. not like they like me anyways)

i still think he makes some of the better beats nowadays (except that stinky most recent EP on OM)

― JaXoN (JasonD), Saturday, 17 January 2004 02:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Do you have to have read Harry Potter to get M@tt's joke?

yes, and it still wouldn't be that funny.

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Saturday, 17 January 2004 17:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Here's my long-awaited response to my rappin' critics

It was sort of published in URB but not correctly - here's more info on that

― Oliver Wang (Oliver Wang), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 07:03 (twenty-one years ago)

I think PUTS are dece.

Louis Logic's recent album was pretty cool too.

― djdee2005, Wednesday, 28 January 2004 08:26 (twenty-one years ago)

eight months pass...

threads like this are good for when I'm pining for my hometown.

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Thursday, 7 October 2004 03:18 (twenty-one years ago)

three months pass...

It's pronounced a rather unrhymable "Grebner," thanks, unless you want to get specific about the pronunciation of the German "o with a slash through it thingy," which I clearly don't. This is why I never used the name on the radio to begin with.

WAY behind the curve on this thread,

― Simon Peter Groebner, Wednesday, 19 January 2005 00:17 (twenty years ago)

SIMON!

― g--ff (gcannon), Wednesday, 19 January 2005 00:27 (twenty years ago)

Happy to read this thread today for the first time. By coincidence, I'm going into the studio tonight with Sims (of Doomtree/P.O.S.) to appear on a song critical of music critics. The track was inspired by... me. I called Sims a "slacker MC" in City Pages. This was meant as a cultural designation, not a diss of his work ethic...

― Pete Scholtes, Wednesday, 19 January 2005 16:18 (twenty years ago)

that review by wang isnt that bad at all.

and jean grae isnt anywhere near as good as her critics like to make out. she can be quite boring at the best of times.

― ppp, Wednesday, 19 January 2005 16:30 (twenty years ago)

"I'm losing my cred"
"I'm losing my cred"
"I was dissed... in that URB magazine thread by a one Oliver Wang in the glory days of 2003..."

― donut christ (donut), Wednesday, 19 January 2005 16:50 (twenty years ago)

Turns out it's not going to happen. Shoot, I was looking forward to a Harry Allen-style cameo.

Now my review will read: "Sims's debut is great, but it's missing that certain something extra..."

― Pete Scholtes, Thursday, 20 January 2005 00:01 (twenty years ago)

Damn, I was about to say, make sure he pronounces my name with a long "a". Everyone gets it wrong. EVERYONE. Some people get it pseudo-right and pronounce it like my French-Canadian ancestors usedta (puh-TRIN) but that doesn't count because it's not 1890.

― What's this place, Biblevania? (natepatrin), Thursday, 20 January 2005 02:11 (twenty years ago)

pronunciation of various Minnesota writers' last names:

Groebner = GREB-ner
Patrin = PAY-Trin
Maerz = Mare-tz
Cloutier = CLO-tyay
Scholtes = SHOLE-tiss

― Pete Scholtes, Friday, 21 January 2005 17:36 (twenty years ago)

MAH-tos

― Matos W.K. (M Matos), Friday, 21 January 2005 17:44 (twenty years ago)

Hix

― What's this place, Biblevania? (natepatrin), Friday, 21 January 2005 18:02 (twenty years ago)

it's PAY-trin??

― g--ff (gcannon), Friday, 21 January 2005 18:04 (twenty years ago)

matos, is it "MAH-tose" or "MAH-toss"?

― ken taylrr (ken taylrr), Friday, 21 January 2005 18:06 (twenty years ago)

three years pass...

botw

― The Reverend, Monday, 28 January 2008 06:15 (seventeen years ago)

Saw Oliver last week at the panel thing we were all in. He talked about Charles Wright and the Watts 103rd Street Rhythm Band, great stuff of course.

― Ned Raggett, Monday, 28 January 2008 06:16 (seventeen years ago)

I would enjoy hearing O Dub lecture about the Watts 103rd.

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Monday, 28 January 2008 06:27 (seventeen years ago)

His Boogaloo presentation @ EMP last year was A plus shit

― The Reverend, Monday, 28 January 2008 06:34 (seventeen years ago)

this is the most bipolar thread ever

― Matos W.K., Monday, 28 January 2008 18:21 (seventeen years ago)

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