Eddie Palmieri is playing this weekend (in Philadelphia) and I don't have tickets yet

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I wonder why I am dragging my feet. It's probably a combination of things: even though the last time I saw him I thought he was really good, I am ambivalent about his current sound, at least as represented on CDs (including what he had out at that time). He still records some very good tracks, but I don't generally like entire albums unless I go back to his earlier days.

He's going to give a talk about salsa before the concert, but I get a little tired of his old timer purist Messiah-who-will-rescue-salsa schtick, even if he's trying to argue for a more muscular sound.

Also, I don't think there's going to be anywhere to dance during the show, though there is a party right in the same building after the performance, but still, it's kind of weird to have to sit through things that really make you want to dance. I suppose there's always the aisle.

If I'm working on Saturday, I probably won't go, but if I'm not, and if I can get tickets this week, I might go. I wish I had someone to bring along. I was thinking of going out dancing Friday night to try to find a date for Saturday, but that sounds unrealistic.

― Rockist Scientist, Monday, 17 November 2003 01:31 (twenty-two years ago)

I heard his October DC show was great. I've seen him 2 or 3 times and always enjoyed his mix of danceable stuff and more out-there Latin jazz. He is kinda set in his old-timer ways but he's talented enough to make that schtick nearly always enjoyable.

― Steve Kiviat (Steve K), Monday, 17 November 2003 01:51 (twenty-two years ago)

I just get tired of reading interviews with him where he presents himself as the champion of true salsa, but maybe that's some kind of music-machismo joke. Some of his music I like, some I don't. Anyway, the lecture is optional, and an additional charge, I think.

― Rockist Scientist, Monday, 17 November 2003 02:02 (twenty-two years ago)

I bought a ticket for the show, but it turns out that the after party is already sold out. :( I might know someone who can get me in, but I'm not sure.

― Rockist Scientist, Friday, 21 November 2003 22:32 (twenty-two years ago)

The 'true salsa' purist arguments can get rather annoying, although I must confess to liking most old-school salsa better than "salsa romantica" or some of the schlocky Latin-pop played on my local franchise of La Mega radio. But there is stuff on La Mega I like, and surely there must be a way for Palmieri, et al. to incorporate some current influences. The Latin-jazz and salsa pioneers of the past weren't just sitting around listening to music that was recorded 20 years before. Or if Eddie or others are gonna just stick with old-school style then they need to 'fess up to that without acting so superior.

I read in the Beat how timba(the Cuban mesh of salsa and funk n hiphop) now seems to be in a rut. Have you heard any reggaeton, the current hip new Puerto Rican style? I bought a Tego Calderon cd and it mostly just sounded like rap en espanol with only a touch of dancehall and an even smaller dab of salsa. I need to listen to it some more though.

― Steve Kiviat (Steve K), Saturday, 22 November 2003 00:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Eddie's not the only one pushing the true salsa line, it seems widespread in the Latin music world(It's reflected by both the interviewers and interviewees in Latin Beat magazine that's for sure). I saw the Gonzalez brothers from the Fort Apache band pushing the same line on an otherwise fascinating panel discussion at the Smithsonian one year. Then there are the salsa dance purists who snear at merengue because it is oh so simplistic compared to their exalted salsa.

― Steve Kiviat (Steve K), Saturday, 22 November 2003 00:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Jimmy Bosch boasts about his "salsa dura" (hard salsa)yet interestingly live recently I was less impressed with his band than I was with that of Tito Rojas who's looked down on by some for nodding in the direction of schmaltzy salsa romantica. Rojas' band's playing was harder and more danceable and more cohesive.

― Steve Kiviat (Steve K), Saturday, 22 November 2003 00:39 (twenty-two years ago)

although I must confess to liking most old-school salsa better than "salsa romantica" or some of the schlocky Latin-pop played on my local franchise of La Mega radio.

La Mega is mostly pretty awful, not that I don't like anything on there, but they are extremely limited and tend to be schlocky. (Also, they won't play Cuban music, which is annoying, even though I don't even like Cuban music that much.) The mix of music I hear in clubs is almost always way better. Some "salsa romantica" is too sickly sweet for me, but there are a fair number of songs that may start out that way momentarily, but build really nicely. Overall, I like old school salsa better, but I do like the club feel of a lot of the salsa to come out since the 70's golden age.

Have you heard any reggaeton, the current hip new Puerto Rican style? I bought a Tego Calderon cd and it mostly just sounded like rap en espanol with only a touch of dancehall and an even smaller dab of salsa.

That's pretty much what it is, I think. (Francis Watlington skewers reggaeton in the long salsa thread I started a while back.) I have heard a little and I like some of it, but it's nothing I'm going to get very excited about at this point. I have not gotten into timba at all, with the exception of a song here and there. I still really love the salsa formula.

Dancing merengue just doesn't give me the same thrill that dancing salsa does, and it's not just a matter of the complexity or difficulty of the dances. I do like some merengue now and then as a break, and it's nice because it's so much easier in merengue to lead partners who don't have any idea what they are doing (not that the results are necessarily pretty to look at). Musically, I get tired of it a lot more quickly than salsa, but I don't mind having some mixed in. (Though I also don't mind non-stop salsa.)

Haha, I saw Tito Rojas this past year, and I thought he was awful. Maybe it was a bad night. I've heard that he is sometimes referred to as "Tito Drogas." He opened for Andy Montanez, who was fantastic. Jimmy Bosch I've never seen live. What I've heard on CD has been okay, but hasn't really floored me. I think it gives a little less than it promises.

(Keep dropping names I can talk about!)

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Saturday, 22 November 2003 00:58 (twenty-two years ago)

But anyway, I can see how a performance by Tito Rojas (on a good night) could be more satisfying than Jimmy Bosch.

(I don't get to see many of these performers, incidentally, so it's funny that you mention Rojas.)

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Saturday, 22 November 2003 01:02 (twenty-two years ago)

(Not that I consider myself a great merengon, or anything. Even if it's easy to dance, in a sense, that doesn't mean it's easy to dance with the style that some people are able to bring to it.)

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Saturday, 22 November 2003 01:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Lots of folks come to the Washington DC area. There are several promoters who bring acts in to the clubs, and then the Smithsonian, the Kennedy Center, and the city of Arlington, VA(whose arts curator does a great 1940s to present salsa n more show on WPFW)bring in more acts(sometimes more Latin-jazz than salsa).

Do you like El Canario Jose Alberto? I was real impressed with he and his band when i saw them opening for Celia Cruz a few years back.

― Steve Kiviat (Steve K), Saturday, 22 November 2003 21:33 (twenty-two years ago)

If I had more time to go out I'd have gone to see over the past year or so: El Gran Combo, Orlando Marin, Willie Colon, Puerto Rican Power, Los Reinas(an all-women Japanese combo)and a whole lot more.

― Steve Kiviat (Steve K), Saturday, 22 November 2003 21:36 (twenty-two years ago)

I've never particularly gotten into Jose Alberto either. (I also saw him open for Celia Cruz--maybe it was the same tour.) I do like his version of the song "Baile que baile," which he also performed with Tipica 73 (and I like that version as well).

I have a ticket, but now I don't even feel like going out tonight. It feels as though I might be fighting off some sort of bug. I'm very tired and I am realizing that if I go out tonight I will not have time to get certain fairly critical chores finished--well, maybe if I skip the gym tomorrow.

Philadelphia does get big name acts at the Felton Supper Club in North Philadelphia, but without having a car, it's hard for me to get there and back. (I could take a taxi, but getting a taxi to pick me up would be a lot trickier.)

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Saturday, 22 November 2003 21:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Everything always comes back to laundry for me.

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Saturday, 22 November 2003 21:42 (twenty-two years ago)

We'll just have to agree to disagree mostly on El Canario. Re Eddie-- Yea health and laundry and transportation do play a role in deciding whether to go out and see someone. Especially if you've seen them before and/or if you've been seeing gigs for years. I occasionally review shows and/or write previews of shows so I can often get freebies to attend if I can fit it in.

Not too many ILMers seem interested in salsa. I think the language barrier, a fear of having to learn intricate couples dance steps, the view that salsa was at its peak in the '70s, and the fact that its not plugged by hipster record stores and blogs scares away ILMers who will embrace Jamaican dancehall and some afropop and free jazz for that matter. Oh well, their loss.

So let me know how Eddie Palmieri is if you do go?

― Steve Kiviat (Steve K), Saturday, 22 November 2003 21:53 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think salsa has much in common with what are currently the most popular genres (including hip-hop, which doesn't seem nearly as multilayered rhythmically to me, and maybe more rhythmically complex, though I'm less confident about that; and is less concerned with melody and harmony, to put it mildly). And then, it is usually danced while making contact with a partner, which goes against the grain (never mind learning intricate steps).

It may have peaked in the 70's (though I'm still not sure I agree with that--I have a lot of back catalog to listen to), but there has been a lot of very good salsa put out since then.

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Saturday, 22 November 2003 22:13 (twenty-two years ago)

While the amount of ILMers into free jazz isn't as large as the amount into hiphop there seems to be more into the even more complex sounds of free jazz than salsa. But I think alot of those free jazz fans hear those sounds the way they do the noisy rock sounds they like. I wonder if Sonic Youth and Yo La Tengo and the Forced Exposure fanzine had been plugging salsa instead of avante-free jazz whether the alt-indie rock subculture would have similarly embraced such sounds? I listen to alt-rock and hiphop AND salsa and I don't understand why so few others seem to feel the same comparable energy coming from salsa that I do.

I also can't believe that none of the jazz fans who look at this site haven't contributed? Aren't some of 'em fans of Eddie palmieri's avant side? Maybe they just don't like Philadelphia and skipped this string because of the wording of the title! Or maybe they're doing their laundry!

You're right that there's been a lot of good salsa since the '70s but the perception of it by some is that is when it peaked. When I wrote about current Congolese rumba and soukous on another thread several folks dismissed that style as having peaked in the '70s. I think alot of these same folks will happily listen to current rock(that imitates early 80s postpunk say) without instead dismissing rock by saying, "oh it peaked in 81 or 77 or 66 or 56 or whenever."

― Steve Kiviat (Steve K), Saturday, 22 November 2003 22:52 (twenty-two years ago)

I can see the transition from punk/industrial/noisey whatever to free jazz (in fact, before I started reading about it happening I remember thinking that punks should be interested in free jazz), and I can also see how it might be a change of pace for someone into, say, electronic dance stuff (while salsa might not be different enough, in a way).

I don't see much in salsa to make it a candidate for being promoted by Yo La Tengo or Sonic Youth. The whole atmosphere around going to an indie rock show vs. going out to see a Latin dance band is pretty different. You have to take a leap not only from non-dancing to dancing, but to partner dancing. Not that it's a requirement, but there isn't that big of a non-dancing audience for current salsa, I think, even among Latinos. As I said above, I think that while "salsa" may have been more of an open-ended concept in the 70's, since then it has become, under one definition anyway, a specific dance music formula (with more limited lyrical range than previously). People who aren't into the dance, aren't necessarily going to want to listen to a whole CD worth of material following that particular form. Getting back to indie rock bands promoting other types of material, salsa is not underground the way free jazz is. It is, in some cases anyway, popular music, with sometimes glitzy or even gaudy trappings. For me, going out salsa dancing relates more to my fantasies about disco dancing when I was a pre-teen or young teenager, than my experience of most punk/indie shows.

I am growing more and more turned off by hip-hop, so I can't really comment on reconcling hip-hop listeners with Afro-Latin music.

We did have an Eddie Palmieri thread before.

― Rockist Scientist, Saturday, 22 November 2003 23:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Maybe the problem is that I am repeating myself and saying boring things on this thread?

― Rockist Scientist, Saturday, 22 November 2003 23:21 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm not going. I really do feel like I'm fighting something off and I'd just as soon stay home and go to bed early, neighbors permitting (which is unlikely--sonsofbitches).

You know, reading your comments on Sterling's Cohn (sp?--I don't know; I don't read much music crit.), it's added to my thought that yes, maybe I would be interested in writing about music if I were writing about Afro-Latin and Arab music, especially since there isn't much about either one in English, but I'd like to learn the language(s) first.

― Rockist Scientist, Sunday, 23 November 2003 02:21 (twenty-two years ago)

I have to get people to help me with translations when I review African and Latin shows. Learning to speak Spanish better is on my list. Learning to speak French as it is spoken in various African countries in addition to their native languages wouldn't be bad either. For now, I'm nearly the only writer interested in reviewing shows in these genres in the Washington DC area.

― Steve Kiviat (Steve K), Sunday, 23 November 2003 14:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Still no other posters to this thread beside Rockist Scientist and me.

Oh well. I guess we have to try to get other English-speaking salsa and Latin-jazz fans to contribute to this site.

So RS, what do you make of the dancing on the one vs the dancing on the 2 debate?

― Steve Kiviat (Steve K), Monday, 24 November 2003 05:52 (twenty-two years ago)

I assume that's partly a joke?

I used to worry about it a bit, but it's not much of an issue for me. Most people in my area dance on the one, which is how I learned. I would like to eventually learn NY on 2 style (and cumbia style, and Cuban casino style) just to be more flexible, but I'm not all that worried about "doing it wrong."

― Rockist Scientist, Monday, 24 November 2003 12:24 (twenty-two years ago)

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