I'm embarrassed by my early work therefore I will try to make it as hard as possible for the public to know that it exists and for them to purchase any of it. C/D?

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Some thoughts that came to mind from the "skank bloc bologna" thread (about Scritti Politti's early material). This, of course, applies especially to Kraftwerk.

I suggested the notion is rather selfish -- not financially, obviously, but in terms of the artist's reputation. Am I wrong? Right? Thoughts?

― donut bitch (donut), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 19:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Dud. How many artists actually know what their best work is or what work they've done is good?

― jack cole (jackcole), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 19:39 (twenty-two years ago)

it is selfish, but at the end of the day selfishness is a right when it comes to stuff you've made. (except maybe children.)

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 19:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Panterrible to thread! (Site's not working at this point but allegedly should be back up in a little while.)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 19:39 (twenty-two years ago)

with scritti it's doubly frustrating because they were a band who started out on such a demystification tip then (arguably) backtracked into good old pop mystification and now that early work has gained two or three extra levels of mystification simply through a. not being available and b. devalued/dismissed by its creator

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 19:42 (twenty-two years ago)

music selfishness has a right to children?

― Haikunym (Haikunym), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 19:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Bob Seger, what's the deal man?

― Broheems (diamond), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 19:52 (twenty-two years ago)

This is good. The artist absolutely should be able to do it. Jack - the artist's opinion is as valid as yrs or anyone's. EVERYTHING rereleased = dud.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 19:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Is that why Spoon's Telephono is out of print? Cuz it should be in print.

― dave225 (Dave225), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 19:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Silver Jews, maybe?
And on a filmic tip, I just caught Todd Solondz' first movie, "Fear Anxiety and Depression"... pre "Welcome to the Dollhouse" and "Happiness." The movie stars Todd Solondz himself, doing a creepy channeling of Woody Allen. It has some laughs, though...

― Ben Boyer (Ben Boyer), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 19:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Artist: "My new record is the best thing I've ever done!"

― jack cole (jackcole), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 20:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Alanis Morissette!

― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 20:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Bob Seger, what's the deal man?

I have the Bob Segar System record and it's pretty good - Ramblin' Gamblin' Man is the best thing he ever did

ALSO:

Y CANT TORI READ? to thread!

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 20:07 (twenty-two years ago)

hmmm, maybe Dr. C is right after all . . .

― jack cole (jackcole), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 20:07 (twenty-two years ago)

also: DUD (the public has a right to know!)

Also maybe Radiohead to thread (Spin did a thing where they played their demos from when they were called On A Friday)

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 20:08 (twenty-two years ago)

there's all that FZ juvenalia in the Zappa Family Trust vaults

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 20:09 (twenty-two years ago)

including the Wild Man Fischer's first, which Gail Zappa continues to suppress.

― jack cole (jackcole), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 20:10 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm embarrassed by my early work therefore I smashed those boxes of 4-track tapes with a baseball bat in a jaegermeistered catharsis.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 20:12 (twenty-two years ago)

NO! nick, I only liked you early stuff, you know, before you sold out.

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 20:15 (twenty-two years ago)

also, I bet lots of current hard-boy rappers have Daisy-Age hi-top fade skeletons in their closet.

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 20:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Fleetwood Mac to thread?

― Gear! (Gear!), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 20:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Busted before Charlie joined to thread.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 20:21 (twenty-two years ago)

not really--the Peter Green stuff is well represented by their mid-'90s box, and they've never really shied away from talking about it as far as I know. plus isn't a lot of that stuff (or at least the Bob Welch-era stuff) still available? I still see Bare Trees for sale new all the time.

― M Matos (M Matos), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 20:21 (twenty-two years ago)

if only mr. bowie had been able to suppress his "laughing gnome"-era stuff.

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 20:25 (twenty-two years ago)

it is selfish, but at the end of the day selfishness is a right when it comes to stuff you've made.

Tis due to opinion, sure. Why bother releasing it on a label in the first place, if you believe your songs are so awful? Wouldn't shelving them be better?

― Nichole Graham (Nichole Graham), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 20:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Re: early Fleetwood Mac, everything and then some is in print! Well, everything except a couple stray 7" sides. original "Man of the World" and "Green Manalishi" still not on a proper cd? I think they may actually not be, but this is due to record company laziness more than any kind of suppression.

― Broheems (diamond), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 20:35 (twenty-two years ago)

if gary numan had a choice, we wouldn't have had the plan released. plus, i bet that he wishes that machine + soul was never released (though it isn't that easy to get yer hands on it these days).

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 20:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, I noticed Numan was allowed some spot in the liner notes in "The Plan" CD reissue basically saying "This is all shit really. I just thought starting out as a punk band was my only way in.". I love, like, 90% of that CD!

― donut bitch (donut), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 20:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Perhaps Kraftwerk should just re-release their first three records as a box set with them taking a shit on the master tapes and release it as "Scheiss!"

― donut bitch (donut), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 20:56 (twenty-two years ago)

MATT OTM RE Y KANT TORI READ. I fuckin' LOVE that album! KIXX ASS on all of her later bullshit.

― Bryan (Bryan), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 20:57 (twenty-two years ago)

i think trent reznor falls in this category. that "purest feeling" bootleg is embarrassing, as wonderful as it is.

― Felcher (Felcher), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 21:09 (twenty-two years ago)

I wouldn't count bootlegs and demos as early work, though, guys. And some of this stuff is. Nothing wrong with trying to supress tapes of early rehearsals - but I am against making it difficult to find early proper releases.

― Girolamo Savonarola, Tuesday, 25 November 2003 21:12 (twenty-two years ago)

"MAYBE...MAYBE just ONCE I'll GET what's COMING to ME!"

Which wouldn't be so bad or out of place for NIN were it not for the chirpy Erasure style backing track.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 21:12 (twenty-two years ago)

"Frank Zappa juvenilia" could actually describe quite a bit of his career.

― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 21:12 (twenty-two years ago)

"Frank Zappa juvenilia" could actually describe quite a bit of his career.

i was waiting for someone to make that comment ... i thought it would be mistah sinkah, but there you are.

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 21:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Knowing it stinks and never publishing it: Classic.
Knowing it stinks, publishing it, and then trying to hide the fact that you published it: Dud.

Also: pre-'Jagged Little Pill'-era Alanis Morrisette to thread.

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 21:45 (twenty-two years ago)

I was hoping Bjork's massive popularity would fuel more publicity about her pre-Sugarcubes stuff like Kukl.. Damn dense weeeird ass art rock records they were. Weren't they released on Crass records? You'd figure the Crass collective would be on top of this shit and reissuing it.. then again, the records are really hard to listen to.

― donut bitch (donut), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 21:49 (twenty-two years ago)

That pantera page is hysterical.

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 21:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Hello Pantera!

― Charles McCain (Charles McCain), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 21:59 (twenty-two years ago)

LAYNE STALEY PRE-ALICE IN CHAINS! HE MADE BRITNY FOX LOOK LIKE THE FEELIES IN COMPARISON BRING ON THE DANCING HAIRSPRAY YO!!

― Eisbär (llamasfur), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 22:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Neil Young to thread.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 22:03 (twenty-two years ago)

The thing with Neil is he's just looking for the optimium format in which to release it.

― Charles McCain (Charles McCain), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 22:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, can't wait for the 1024-bit sampling audio remastering of Neil And The Shocking Pinks.

― donut bitch (donut), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 22:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Tis due to opinion, sure. Why bother releasing it on a label in the first place, if you believe your songs are so awful? Wouldn't shelving them be better?

Knowing it stinks, publishing it, and then trying to hide the fact that you published it: Dud.

How about the possibility that the artist actually thought that the stuff was great when he first published it, but now thinks it sux0rz?

― Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 23:05 (twenty-two years ago)

the Kukl stuff was reissued on CD five or six years a go.

― jack cole (jackcole), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 23:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Dud, although I totally understand the motivation and would do it myself in the same situation (were I a successful artist anyone gave a shit about). Though hopefully if I did anything awful I would keep it away from people. I have tried my best.

― Blood and sparkles (bloodandsparkles), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 23:35 (twenty-two years ago)

MBV pre-Creation. some of their best songs and very expensive to get originals of.

obviously i think it's dud, as is anything that nurtures collectorscummishness.

― the surface noise (electricsound), Tuesday, 25 November 2003 23:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Judas Priest - 2 albums pre-"sad wings of destiny"

― sucka (sucka), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 02:31 (twenty-two years ago)

What about Y KANT TORI READ? That forgotten Tori Amos mis-step in the late 80's before going solo?

― Michael Dieter, Wednesday, 26 November 2003 02:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Please reread thread, Michael.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 03:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Well - obviously DUD.

I just still haven't heard that album - or Damon Albarn's 'Two's A Crowd' synthpop group? When can we see a reissue of that?

― Michael Dieter, Wednesday, 26 November 2003 03:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Adolescent Sex and Obscure Alternatives were re-issued a while back weren't they?

― rainer mcnichol (r. mcnichol), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 03:24 (twenty-two years ago)

this reminds me of that trent reznor pre-nin hair band.... saw an LP at a nashville vinyl vault for like $125... i was tempted to beg the owner to put it on just to have a little taste of it...

― msp, Wednesday, 26 November 2003 04:06 (twenty-two years ago)

In response to a post much earlier in the thread, I don't think Telephono is out of print because the band has disowned or wants to supress the album. I think Matador has just stopped pressing it. I have my copy, so I don't care.

― Christian Rawk (Christian Rawk), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 04:17 (twenty-two years ago)

maybe Merge will reissue it

― the surface noise (electricsound), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 04:19 (twenty-two years ago)

"the artist's opinion is as valid as yrs or anyone's."

Indeed but wasn't the artist's opinion of their own material at the time when (s)he (presumably) thought it was good enough to release just as valid as his / her opinion of the same material now?

Stuff that was never generally released and which the artist may never have intended for general release may be a different story - but anything that an artist has knowingly and willingly allowed into the public domain once is fair game I reckon.

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 10:55 (twenty-two years ago)

I think I agree with Dr. C and I'm all for artists' acts of wilfulness or contrariety. By deliberately failing to reissue material for which there's a demand, though, artists forfeit their grounds for whining when people share copies.

― Tim (Tim), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 11:02 (twenty-two years ago)

La Monte Young

though i don't think he's embarrassed by his Theatre of Eternal Music recordings at all, in fact quite the opposite. But he refuses to release any of it. The only the thing we'll get is the DVD of his masterpiece The Well-Tuned Piano, which is good, but a lot of people find it hard to appreciate watching an old, fat anarcho-hippie wearing a cape and playing the piano for six straight hours.

― Rob McD, Wednesday, 26 November 2003 11:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Now, I don't hardly keep up with Bob Pollard's mad ruch of crap these days, but I know that for quite a long time he refused to allow for reissue of the first Guided by Voices record. And this is BOB POLLARD. Maybe it's on some recent box set, though, I dunno.

― Hurlothrumbo (hurlothrumbo), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 15:22 (twenty-two years ago)

"mad rush" sorry

― Hurlothrumbo (hurlothrumbo), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 15:22 (twenty-two years ago)

More concerned with the artists who should be trying to obfuscate their later stuff.

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 15:26 (twenty-two years ago)

but anything that an artist has knowingly and willingly allowed into the public domain once is fair game I reckon.

As a general principle, classic. But what if not everyone in the band "knowingly and willingly" authorized the release? (Among the reasons the Afghan Whigs' Big Top Halloween will probably never see an authorized reissue, is that Curley pressed up the copies and started distributing them without Dulli authorizing the tracks to be released. But it's a good album compared to most bands' juvenilia, and the band has done itself a disservice over the years by not putting more legitimate copies out there.)

― j.lu (j.lu), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 15:57 (twenty-two years ago)

"As a general principle, classic. But what if not everyone in the band "knowingly and willingly" authorized the release?"

Difficult but on balance I tend to think that unless those members of the band actively took out injunctions to prevent sale / distribution and attempt to recall sold products and legal actions for damages then they've authorised it by default.

Strictly Personal was (supoosedly) released without Don Van Vliet's knowledge or approval and he moaned plenty about the "psychedelic Bromo-Seltzer" effects (phasing) applied by Bob Krasnow when mixing it - but he didn't make any attempt to get it pulled from the shelves afaik.

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 16:07 (twenty-two years ago)

George Martin's reluctance to release the first four Beatles albums in stereo also belongs here to some extent.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 17:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Boards of Canada for sure. they have like four tapes prior to Twoism.
more hilarious is free jazz drummer Susie Ibarra, who refuses to discuss her old Houston punk band, Devil Dogs. i think the joke was that Byron Coley would try to put it out.

― Beta (abeta), Wednesday, 26 November 2003 18:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Mr. Thomas Gabriel Fischer refuses to acknowledge that the Hellhammer material is the best he's ever done. Hence, no reissues of "Death Fiend", "Triumph Of Death", "Satanic Rites", "Crucifixion", "Buried And Forgotten", so I have to pay rediculous amounts of money for crappy bootlegs - you bastard!

― Siegbran (eofor), Thursday, 27 November 2003 12:17 (twenty-two years ago)

The only person whose opinion matters in these cases are the artists themselves - I don't matter, you don't matter and (most of all) the record industry doesn't matter. Given that the vast majority of recorded artists, living and dying, are routinely bled dry by businessmen of every stripe then I rather applaud those few artists who hold out against their music being regurgitated for the "market".

Well he (Beefheart) lied about that one (as he often did). Fact is that he and Krasnow put all the phasing on those track together but when people laughed at it as a lame attempt at cashing in on the psychedelic market he blamed Krasnow (in public at least).

― The Spotlight Kid (kid), Thursday, 27 November 2003 12:43 (twenty-two years ago)

>Fleetwood Mac to thread?

Referring to the Buckingham/Nicks LP, perhaps, which remains unavailable on CD.

― harveyw (harveyw), Thursday, 27 November 2003 15:22 (twenty-two years ago)

"Well he (Beefheart) lied about that one (as he often did). Fact is that he and Krasnow put all the phasing on those track together but when people laughed at it as a lame attempt at cashing in on the psychedelic market he blamed Krasnow (in public at least)."

Interesting, what's your source for this? I've heard from 2 members of The Magic Band that the album was mixed and released while they were on tour in Europe and that neither they nor Don had known anything about it....

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Thursday, 27 November 2003 15:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Dud. How many artists actually know what their best work is or what work they've done is good?
-- jack cole (jack_col...), November 25th, 2003.

Exactly.

Almost every band ever always says their latest album is their best and on all bar one occasion (when they HAVE just released their best album) they're wrong.

― mei (mei), Thursday, 27 November 2003 15:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Not necessarily - what if every album they released was better then the one before*? Then they'd have been right every time (except gramatically re: the first two, obviously)!

*NB - I can't think of a single example off hand where this has ever actually happened....

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Thursday, 27 November 2003 15:45 (twenty-two years ago)

In fact I'm so intrigued by that question that I think I'm going to start another thread!

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Thursday, 27 November 2003 16:00 (twenty-two years ago)

one year passes...

it's easier to suppress a film than a record (these days especially, though the internet has made it a lot easier to find obscure movies it should be noted), so this thread would be even more interesting if it expanded its scope to films. robert bresson and his widow to thread.

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Saturday, 7 May 2005 16:57 (twenty years ago)

My favorite Kraftwerk records are the first few. Just saying.

― porno postcards, Saturday, 7 May 2005 17:15 (twenty years ago)

We'll see this happen with Ministry whenever the hell With Sympathy falls out of print.

― Ian Riese-Moraine does not need to compromise his principles! (Eastern Mantra), Saturday, 7 May 2005 17:27 (twenty years ago)

"My favorite Kraftwerk records are the first few. Just saying."

I'm with you, porno postcards. In their own ways, they're just as innovative as Trans-Europe Express and Computer World--maybe more so.

― Dave Segal (Da ve Segal), Saturday, 7 May 2005 17:27 (twenty years ago)

>> robert bresson and his widow to thread

What Bresson films are being suppressed?

― Dr Benway (dr benway), Sunday, 8 May 2005 11:16 (twenty years ago)

If anyone can find them - the early demo tapes of Marc Almond and a friend messing round with cheap keyboards in a Southport bedroom are utterly charming. Shit, but charming.

― On one hand I've got myself to blame (Lynskey), Sunday, 8 May 2005 11:32 (twenty years ago)

Edvard Grieg's C-Minor symphony (his first ever work) to thread!

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Sunday, 8 May 2005 12:51 (twenty years ago)

bon jovi = the power station years when he was john bongiovi.
i love songs like "don't leave me tonight",no-one does it like you"
so he was solo/group/solo/group.
paid ausrtraian $10 at bargain store called go-lo.

― bongiovi, Sunday, 8 May 2005 13:24 (twenty years ago)

Recording artists who have control over their back catalogue certainly have the right to suppress their early music if they wish. And that practice is DUD all the way. They should be grateful that they have a fan base dedicated enough to want to hear EVERYTHING by their heroes - or, at least have the opportunity to do so. Surely they can't be afraid of losing fans? Nonsense: You lose fans by releasing crappy NEW albums, not by rereleasing old ones. If they truly believe that their old stuff is substandard, why not price it accordingly? Expenses are down - the recording was paid for years ago - so they can afford to offer for sale a greatly reduced price, and let the fans decide. Two possible reactions: (a)"Wow, this is great! Certainly as good as/way better than his usual stuff." Or (b)"Wow, this is shit! I can see why he was embarrassed, glad I only paid X for it. Good thing his new album's on its way, it'll help cleanse my memory of ever having listened to this crap!" Everybody wins! (Especially Bob Seger fans.)

― Myonga Von Bontee (Myonga Von Bontee), Sunday, 8 May 2005 13:43 (twenty years ago)

What Bresson films are being suppressed?

les affaires publiques, his first short which was thought lost until about 10 years ago

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Sunday, 8 May 2005 16:50 (twenty years ago)

Didn't KLF delete their entire catalog?

― Mr. Snrub (Mr. Snrub), Friday, 20 May 2005 10:36 (twenty years ago)

the entire KLF Communications catalogue - some foreign licenses remained available for several years afterwards (mainly Chill Out in the US and The White Room in loads of countries)

― kit brash (kit brash), Friday, 20 May 2005 15:09 (twenty years ago)

I don't think the KLF deleted their entire catalog because "they thought it was too embarrassing." Perhaps they think their entire dive into making music was embarrassing now, but not for the same reasons as the above artists mentioned. I mean, the KLF are not normal people! they deleted their *entire* backcatalogue. That's a different qualifier altogether.

― donut debonair (donut), Friday, 20 May 2005 16:11 (twenty years ago)

I have a couple of indie releases from a few years back that are Clearly Not My Best Work, but it's not like I'd die of embarrassment if I suddenly had a huge hit that caused them to be unearthed.

― Tantrum The Cat (Tantrum The Cat), Friday, 20 May 2005 16:20 (twenty years ago)

hey deleted their *entire* backcatalogue.

i find this unspeakably awesome.

― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Friday, 20 May 2005 17:20 (twenty years ago)

Well, they deleted their entire self-released back catalogue. I think TVT/Wax Trax!, or Arista still have the rights to Chill Out and The White Room, respectively, so those are still in print. Not sure about The History Of The J.A.M.S. aka The Timelords comp, though. Anyway, yeah, Bill and Jimmy don't fuck around when it comes to leaving the music industry, I guess.

― donut debonair (donut), Friday, 20 May 2005 17:30 (twenty years ago)

..much less burning a million pounds... literally.

― donut debonair (donut), Friday, 20 May 2005 17:31 (twenty years ago)

classic

― jones (actual), Friday, 20 May 2005 17:51 (twenty years ago)

If they truly believe that their old stuff is substandard, why not price it accordingly? Expenses are down - the recording was paid for years ago - so they can afford to offer for sale a greatly reduced price, and let the fans decide.

If the "bad" material is the lowest priced, then wouldn't those low-priced albums become the entry-point into the artiste's ouevre for many listeners? I know, for me, there are quite a few cases where my first purchase from a band was an EP or a single, just because they're low-priced.

I think the opposite is best. Price your good, critical-favorite stuff low (like what Matador does with their more popular back catalog titles) and then price the fans-only stuff higher. The rabid fans will always be willing to pay a few bucks more for something.

― CD Rot, Friday, 20 May 2005 17:56 (twenty years ago)

Bad Religion's *Into the Unknown* (their best album by far) to thread.

― xhuxk, Friday, 20 May 2005 18:12 (twenty years ago)

Alanis Morissette!
-- Huckleberry Mann (handsomishbo...), November 25th, 2003.
when she was debbie gibson/paula abdul ?
i saw a special and it played some aerly songs (pre-jagged pill).

― gebbie dibson, Saturday, 21 May 2005 13:28 (twenty years ago)

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