Me vs. Christgau's Mars Volta Review

"Salsa requires a groove, which the old people know embodies the community to which each individual is subordinate—such as At the Drive-In's forward thrash, which subsumes the complex songforms and explosive guitar from which the Mars Volta audibly proceed."

I hold no brief for defending this sort of thing, which at one level reminds me why I loathe almost all rock music criticism. It's muso writer trick 571, you make an unwarranted assumption about what a work of art is trying to be (here dance music) and then criticise it for not being it.

But the basic point that Salsa (or any other dance music) has a social function that operates by subordinated individual to the community (by inviting everyone to move to the same beat) is surely unexceptionable? The obvious retort is that you can appropriate Salsa influences without wanting to play dance music, and that the criticism is therefore a non-sequitur.

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I don't really care about the Mars Volta but I think you misread what he meant about subordination to the community. He doesn't mean it in a direct social way; he means (a) that playing groove-based music makes the individual players subordinate to the assembly of the collective groove, and he semi-implies that (b) that fact works as a bigger metaphor for what groove-based music means in terms of audience and content. (Simple way of putting that: "groove is communal.") So his point about romantic individualism seems to be that the particular content of the Mars Volta stuff rubs totally against what he sees -- understandably -- as the ethos of groove-based music: "romantic individualism" = apotheosis of self, even apotheosis of self as outside community.

I mean, personally I'd say that split should be a good and interesting thing, though it doesn't really get me interested in the Mars Volta in particular.

For whatever it's worth, Phil, Bob told me he actually likes the guitar playing way more on this record than on the last At the Drive In LP (which, to go off on a tangent here, never struck me as anywhere near as good as the long EP or whatever ATDI preceded it with; oddly, I did the same thing with my copy that you did). And also for whatever it's worth, Bob's never been much of a prog-rock fan at all, so I would've been really suprised if he *did* like the Mars Volta LP (and he actually considered not writing about it for that very reason, by the way, but I *wanted* him to write about it, thinking what he'd say would be interesting anyway, and I was right.)
Your claim that "an old hippie-liberal like Christgau can't not [mention their ethnicities], though. It's hard-wired in him" is really dumb -- he RARELY mentions ethnicities, for Crissakes. And he's hardly an old hippie anyway (or always a toe-the-line liberal), either, so whatever. He told me he mentioned their nationalities this time because the band THEMSELVES (who, sorry man, hardly groove like Santana much less half the rock en espanol bands below the border, including the equally prog Caifanes who you appparently don't get yourself, but whatever -- and right, that *still* doesn't mean salsa isn't a crucial Mars Volta influence somewhow) very much play up their nationalities in interviews. I haven't read these interviews myself; who knows? And I have to admit I don't really agree with Bob's preference for romantic community over romantic individualism either (and we probably spent more time trying to get that part of the review -- the one about the guitarist -- right than any line in any consumer guide in months by the way, and I'm still not sure I completely understand it myself now to be honest). But I still think this is a more revealing Mars Volta review than most of the positive ones I've read.

"rarely mentions ethnicities" might be an exagerration, because after all, lots of times the country somebody (or somebody's parents) came from can tell you a lot about how their music works. But he hardly ALWAYS mentions ethnicities, which is what you imply. He mentions ethnicities when he thinks ethnicities matter. And why shouldn't he?

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>He told me he mentioned their nationalities this time because the band THEMSELVES (who, sorry man, hardly groove like Santana much less half the rock en espanol bands below the border, including the equally prog Caifanes who you appparently don't get yourself, but whatever -- and right, that *still* doesn't mean salsa isn't a crucial Mars Volta influence somewhow) very much play up their nationalities in interviews.

That sounds like a good reason to not mention it; maybe they're using ethnicity as a distraction to cover imagined weaknesses? As far as the Santana thing, I'm listening to Lotus right now, and was watching the MV's live video stuff on MTV2 this very morning, and the comparison just won't leave my head.

I heard a lot of Santana in the record before knowing anything about them, having got it on a friend's recommendation (i.e. he said the drummer is a cross between John Bonham and Tony Allen).

The vocals kinda put me off for awhile, but just this morning I was thinking I really have to give that second shot.

I thought you guys were supposed to be writers?

Mentioning their ethnicities 1) draws in the reader because it seems unnecessary and slightly controversial, for lack of a better word and 2) sets up his discussion of how the Mars Volta do not succeed in adopting the sense of community, both socially and harmonically, that is embodied in salsa, inferring that they should be more inclined to understand this being Puerto Rican and Mexican.

Not that it's a great argument, as he should just say the Mars Volta are irrelevant, unnecessary and boring. But he has to make it seem like there is something more than just opinion going into his criticism.

It might be worth mentioning here that the Evanescence thing is one of the better gags I've read all year.
"They're Christians, but goth-metal Christians. I mean they're goth-metal, but goth-metal Christians."

It definitely sums up E's blandness and lack of definition.

Actually, Neil Peart allegedly (at least according to a Bob Mack article I read once -- one of my favorite Voice music reviews ever, by the way) had a lot of salsa influence in his drumming as well, and (as much as I often like his drumming), I never really heard that, either. So I'm not saying that there's no Mars Volta/Santana connection; I've just never heard it. I hear a lot more Rush (or, yeah, Zeppelin I guess) in there myself. MV don't use *percussion* the way I remember Santana doing. Though then again, there are plenty of Santana albums (including some that Phil mentions) that I haven't listened to for years, so who knows? Maybe the influence is there, and I just don't hear it. And Dean's first point makes sense, obviously; if Bob hears the rhythms as a failed attempt at Latin-American dance music (and I don't get why he shouldn't be *allowed* to hear them that way), I don't see why it hurts to mention that band members do happen to be Latin-American themselves (though I doubt Bob did it because he thought it was a "controversial" thing to do.)

My favorite part of the Evanescence review is actually the ending, which I totally agree with, being a huge fan of goth-metal myself.

I meant I totally DISAGREE with, whoops.

Great album cover though.

yeah the ending is the real payoff to the gag but that earlier line made me laugh out loud coz its just this effortless casual but really technically proficient dis.

Yeah, I was unable to find a better word than "controversial." Maybe "not politically correct" would've been better. Either way, Christgau's personal writing style aside, it definitely sticks out in that sentence for me.

Geddy MEANT it, maaan.

didn't Xgau once say something, I think in that Rockcritics.com go-round, about his family having salsa musicians in it? I know he's got relatives who own a salsa club in Puerto Rico. so maybe he's more likely to say "salsa" than "Santana" because he's more familiar with it (though he's on record as not getting salsa). (or liking Santana that much, for that matter.)

How long before:

Someone Vs. (Me vs. Christgau's Mars Volta Review)

???

Lighten up :-)

Sorry, don't mean to pick on you Phil.

(and we probably spent more time trying to get that part of the review -- the one about the guitarist -- right than any line in any consumer guide in months by the way,

It's just a review of some band, right? You've probably found the only person who's paying as much attention as you Chuck.

Tho I kind of admire the pernickety-ness of it all!

Chuck Eddy defends Christgau shocker!

(I missed this, but dredged it up looking for Santana threads.)

Salsa requires a groove, which the old people know embodies the community to which each individual is subordinate—such as At the Drive-In's forward thrash, which subsumes the complex songforms and explosive guitar from which the Mars Volta audibly proceed.

Totally off-base here. First of all, since when is the individual subordinate to the community? Particularly based on what groove they're playing?

Far be it for me to defend Christgau (especially when reluctant defender Arf Arf has already done a fair job of doing so, along with some others), but I think Christgau has a point here. Two things: (1) Although it may sound like an empty stereotype, I think that overall (for better or worse) Latin American culture tends to put more emphasis on social connectedness (particularly obvious in the case of family) and is in some way less individualistic. (At the very least, this is what its overwhelmingly Catholic background vs. the overwhelmingly Protestant-dominated history of the U.S. would suggest.) (2) On a subjective level, my own experience of salsa dancing leaves me feeling more a part of a social field of some sort and less isolated. I don't think there's anything unusual about dancing blurring the boundaries of ego to some degree. Also, I think dancing together does tend to create a sense of community.

Chuck Eddy defends Christgau shocker!

I already used that line, and it's not any funnier this time.

WOAH! I totally missed this column when it came out? wtf? I just wished he'd pulled the time-length trick he used for The Wolf on One Beat.