Talking Heads Internecine Warfare -- Opinions?

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Salon is running David Bowman's article about the new Talking Heads boxset. A great deal of the article deals with the open hostility between Tina Weymouth and David Byrne. I'm not old enough to claim to have been around at the beginning, but I am enough of a graybeard to have been around for the contemporaneous press from the time of Remain In Light onwards, and I can't recall reading about any of this stuff. Anyone else?

― d.w., Wednesday, 3 December 2003 16:59 (twenty-one years ago)

That packaging looks cool as shit.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 17:36 (twenty-one years ago)

ugh. whatever. it looks like they had dave eggers design it!

― vahid (vahid), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 17:39 (twenty-one years ago)

It looks like a box set that will fit NOWHERE in your house...it's too long to fit in either your CD rack or your bookshelf. Because I have Sand in the Vaseline, I'm giving it a pass.

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 17:50 (twenty-one years ago)

I have Sand in the Vaseline too, and I was a little annoyed to find out this doesn't have everything. I'll wait for that box set (though now I'm dubious about whether it will get made).

― Vinnie (vprabhu), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 17:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Besides...why would you drop the money on this when there's a new SLAYER box?

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 18:00 (twenty-one years ago)

http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drg100/g136/g13677xbvry.jpg vs. http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drg100/g143/g14389op4o1.jpg

The choice is clear!

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 18:09 (twenty-one years ago)

God, is that the picture on Once in a Lifetime? I've heard like one Slayer song in my life and I didn't like it, but even I would choose the Slayer boxset over the TH one out of sheer embarrassment. Much better name too.

― Vinnie (vprabhu), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 18:14 (twenty-one years ago)

I agree...that picture privileges everything I hate about (late-period) Talking Heads. The cutesy-coo kitsch factor is just too much.

I don't expect the box-set that has "all of it" will ever happen...and that's a monster pity, because I heard a bunch of the stuff Byrne wouldn't allow them to include, and it was fantastic. There are a few things on this box (like the alternate-take of "Cities") that are well worth hearing, but I'm afraid not enough of them to justify its purchase.

― M Specktor (M Specktor), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 18:26 (twenty-one years ago)

"In the late 1990s, Weymouth even reportedly called several old friends in the middle of the night to tell them that Byrne had a 'baby penis.'

"While we were at lunch, Weymouth announced that she had heard David Byrne was a murderer. And she wasn't talking about his song that goes 'Psycho killer, q'est-ce que c'est?' No. She heard at a party that Byrne had killed a boy in Brazil using voodoo. She wanted us to play Hardy Boys and solve the case. 'David is a vampire, in a way,' she told me. 'Watch out for the autism. It might be something much more complex. Psychics have seen him and they say he just has a firewall around him.'"

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 18:27 (twenty-one years ago)

The above is from the Salon article, btw.

― Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 18:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Having her and Chris produce the Happy Mondays now seems like an even worse combination (if you were New Order and thus providing the money).

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 18:29 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm sorry but after reading that article, Weymouth sounds officially nuts.

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 18:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Heh she wanna be Genius of Hate. I don't think little-penis disses are gonna get her there.

"Like Humans Do" by Byrne is the sample song that comes with Windows XP, and that somehow bugs me more than the cutesy-poo graphics on the boxed set

For reasons I do not know, my love for TH is this cyclical thing that seems unrelated to any factors I can identify. When I love them, listening to _Remain in Light_ or MSAB&F, I REALLY love them. Other times I just go meh. I don't think I need the boxed set.

― Hunter (Hunter), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 19:07 (twenty-one years ago)

i saw the box itself today, it looked rather nice.

"impractical" i suppose, in that it wont fit on any shelves i know of, but lovely just the same.

i still dont see the point of box sets like these though, except as a kind of gesture confirming a band's canonization.

― amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 19:15 (twenty-one years ago)

tina weymouth sounds like a complete ass

i think i've discovered the secret behind all the bad feelings

― amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 19:19 (twenty-one years ago)

poor byrne

― amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 19:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Bownam wrote a whole book on the Byrne-Weymouth relantionship that mainly deals in TH-related hearsays and rumors. It goes by the name of 'Fa Fa Fa Fa Fa Fa'.

― Neon Noodle, Wednesday, 3 December 2003 19:43 (twenty-one years ago)

that's in England. in the U.S. it's called This Must Be the Place. and it's a fucking piece of shit.

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 19:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Bowman's book is pretty good, I think. And his novels are even better.

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 19:53 (twenty-one years ago)

aside from being unbearably pretentious, poorly written, racist, sexist, rockist, and homophobic, you're right, it's a pretty good book.

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 19:57 (twenty-one years ago)

what i really don't understand is why the writer of the article got rid of all his talking heads records after discovering the extent of the acrimony

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 19:57 (twenty-one years ago)

as much as i loved the genius of love/pleasure of love singles when they came out-they sounded wonderful at the time-someone dragged me once to a tom tom show in 90? 91? i can't remember and it was just excruciating. like watching somebody's drunk parents dance at a wedding to kool and the gang. and the way chris franz yelled out "james brown!" made me cringe and made me hate a perfectly fine song for years. if i were david byrne i would be mortified that those losers were ever in my band.

― scott seward, Wednesday, 3 December 2003 19:57 (twenty-one years ago)

In Bowman's book, Tina comes across as someone who has a HUGE chip on her shoulder. She really needs to get over it and get on with her life.

― Jazzbo (jmcgaw), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 20:00 (twenty-one years ago)

the way chris franz yelled out "james brown!" made me cringe

this is how i feel when David Byrne talks about world music in general (and especially Fela Kuti in specific).

― vahid (vahid), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 20:02 (twenty-one years ago)

when was the last time David Byrne "talked about world music"? '97?

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 20:07 (twenty-one years ago)

or maybe more to the point, in what context are you referring to? liner notes? interviews? I just haven't thought about him doing that in a long time, so I'm curious.

― M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 20:08 (twenty-one years ago)

now he's all about the blip hop

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 20:09 (twenty-one years ago)

haha unfortunately!

does anyone have the link to the full text? i can't seem to see more than the first graf or so cuz it's 'salon premium'

― geeta (geeta), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 20:13 (twenty-one years ago)

matos - yeah, 97 is about right! i remember vowing never to open the liners to the vijay anand comp. again (of course i bought lots of those luaka bop cds so hypocrisy is in the air today!)

i don't recall where i heard him talk about fela. i'm going to be purposefully vague and say i think i heard it on "fresh air" or something. maybe i feel more strongly about his early 80s fela-imitation (this may be more down to my biases and misunderstanding of what he's up to)

― vahid (vahid), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 20:20 (twenty-one years ago)

(geeta, you can choose to watch an extended advert and those wonderful people at salon will grant you a one day pass)

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 20:21 (twenty-one years ago)

in addition to the blip hop, he's very into powerpoint these days.

― fact checking cuz, Wednesday, 3 December 2003 20:27 (twenty-one years ago)

i think david byrne takes blame for a facet of a phenomenon he isn't really in control of...the whole "world music" thing.... perhaps some of luaka bop's marketing left a bit to be desired, esp. by contemporary standards (and i don't have much interest in most of the bands they're selling lately)... but he played a huge role in getting certain musical cultures much wider exposure in the us.

― amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 21:30 (twenty-one years ago)

which is not to say i've heard his recent solo albums, or cared to.

― amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 21:31 (twenty-one years ago)

this is bumming me out since Mick Jagger once mistook my girlfriend for Tina Weymouth.

― hstencil, Wednesday, 3 December 2003 21:34 (twenty-one years ago)

?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

explain!

― amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 21:36 (twenty-one years ago)

it was at some studio (not sure if it was when they were recording in the Bahamas with the guy who produced the Tom Tom Club or in France), and Mick called her "Tina" because he thought she was Tina Weymouth (they don't look alike).

― hstencil, Wednesday, 3 December 2003 21:38 (twenty-one years ago)

haha yes so many good stories about that mick. have you seen him lately?

― amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 21:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Um... JERRY HARRISON... YAY!

― donut bitch (donut), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 21:47 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah where is he in all this? (probably on a plane headed in the opposite direction)

― amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 21:52 (twenty-one years ago)

damn. wishing I hadn't read the article. not a single thing in there I needed or wanted to know. look the other way.

― (Jon L), Wednesday, 3 December 2003 23:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Hmm. Well, I like knowing that elsewhere in that boxset is a painting of a wolf with a severed arm in its mouth. But then that's cancelled out by the idea of naked suburbanites.

― Hunter (Hunter), Thursday, 4 December 2003 04:16 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah where is he in all this? (probably on a plane headed in the opposite direction

Shorewood, right?

― Chris F. (servoret), Thursday, 4 December 2003 04:40 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm sorry but after reading that article, Weymouth sounds officially nuts.
Either the Salon article is a tissue of lies or Weymouth is suddenly a helluvalot more interesting than I took her for. In all the other interviews I've seen of her, she was far too staid, standard, plain and predictable. I'm glad she's secretly a nutjob. Gives her some character.

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Thursday, 4 December 2003 05:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Harrison produced +Live+, I was reinformed tonight. They're all going to hell.

― donut bitch (donut), Thursday, 4 December 2003 09:03 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm tellin ya!
http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drg100/g141/g14114axjgg.jpg

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Thursday, 4 December 2003 16:51 (twenty-one years ago)

the Tom Tom Club's two records are better then anything by the Talking Heads!

The kitschy design at the time probably had as much to do with Tibor Kalman and M & Co. as it did the band.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Thursday, 4 December 2003 19:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Tom Tom Club kinda annoy me. I heard some of the "alternate takes" and I swear it just sounds like they took a random instrument and upped the reverb on it to 11.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 4 December 2003 19:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Selzer, you're out of your gourd.
Matos, explain more about the book -- I was actually thinking of picking it up, since I thought the Salon thing was kind of interesting. Dissuade me!

― Ben Boyer (Ben Boyer), Thursday, 4 December 2003 19:42 (twenty-one years ago)

I just read the article and it seriously freaked me out. The writer himself has some lines about Tina that are almost as weird and obsessive as the ones she has about Byrne. I also found it odd that the article rarely mentions Chris Frantz who seems like he'd definitely make this tiff into a triangle, being her husband and all.

This is total conjecture, but I remember reading about Voidoid Ivan Julian saying that a woman in the CBGB's scene was a total racist who he avoided like crazy...is there any possibility this was Tina Weymouth? Any time she talks about black artists in song or in interviews she always seems to be implying some kind of creepy infantilism. Even in the liner notes to Sand In The Vasline she credits James Brown for giving her the chance to relive her childhood again or some shit like that.

Ugh. I used to wish I was Chris Frantz but I soooo don't now.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 4 December 2003 19:47 (twenty-one years ago)

I swear if this writer makes it hard for me to enjoy watching Stop Making Sense every couple of months I'm gonna be really pissed off.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 4 December 2003 19:49 (twenty-one years ago)

dudes, it's all about dancing. And yeah, you can dance to the Talking Heads, I Zimbra, Once in a Lifetime, This Must Be the Place all have their places in my sets(actually, I Zimbra was recently sampled by Chicken Lips) but the Tom Tom Club records are just killer, and in their own way, have probably been more influential, I mean Mariah Carey had a hit based around the Genius of Love/It's Nasty riff. OK, I'm just picking fights, apples and oranges, but considering how amazing those TTC records are, how much did they contribute to the funky sound of the Talking Heads, or was that all Bryne/Eno?

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Thursday, 4 December 2003 19:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Anyone who wouldn't want this box set must be some sort of trees beatnik

― Dave Vinson (Gaughin), Thursday, 4 December 2003 20:01 (twenty-one years ago)

Don't get me wrong, Dan, I like those Tom Tom Club records a lot (although the Carey tune really hurt "Genius of Love" for me), and I definitely think Frantz/Weymouth/TTC had a HUGE hand in shaping the sound of some of the later Talking Heads stuff, I just think to call their records better than anything the Talking Heads did is a bit much -- one of the TTC discs, after all, is titled "The Good, The Bad, and The Funky." And didn't they have a disco-y novelty cover of "Under the Boardwalk"? Part of my memory of that thinks it must have been amazing, and the other part is cringing... which part is right?

― Ben Boyer (Ben Boyer), Thursday, 4 December 2003 20:01 (twenty-one years ago)

Two words to put cringe in the lead:

WORDY RAPPINGHOOD

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 4 December 2003 20:06 (twenty-one years ago)

ew I can't believe I ever idolized Chris Frantz! He was totally part of this shit too!

I was about to say Harrison was my new favorite T-Head, but then I remembered he produced several albums by Live and was in The Heads with Frantz and Weymouth. Sigh, I guess I'll just stick with the high voodoo priest.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 4 December 2003 20:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Harrison did a record with Arthur Russell. Granted it was "5 Minutes" by Bonzo Goes to Washington...

wait a minute, not sure what "cringe in the lead" means, but if you're implying that Wordy Rappinghood is anything LESS then one of the all time great 80s dance tracks, that still sounds fresh today and was a major favorite of techno and house innovators during the mid 80s, you're crazy.

L'elephant is also awesome, as are Pleasure of Love and the Man with the 4-Way Hips from the second record.

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Thursday, 4 December 2003 20:36 (twenty-one years ago)

ok, so Harrison isn't guilt free, but he seems to be the guy i'd most likely be able to tolerate having coffee with, therefore he still wins.

― donut bitch (donut), Thursday, 4 December 2003 20:38 (twenty-one years ago)

The beats on "Wordy Rappinghood" are fine but GODDAMN do those vocals scare the hell out of me.

good point, db.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 4 December 2003 20:38 (twenty-one years ago)

harrison's a modern lover so he's definitely the one i wanna break bread with

― cinniblount (James Blount), Thursday, 4 December 2003 20:40 (twenty-one years ago)

though it would be fun to just keep doing 'James Broooooown? James BROOOOOOOOWN!' to frantz over and over as some sorta instant karma in action

― cinniblount (James Blount), Thursday, 4 December 2003 20:42 (twenty-one years ago)

He truly was the godfather of soul, y'all!

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 4 December 2003 20:44 (twenty-one years ago)

though it would be fun to just keep doing 'James Broooooown? James BROOOOOOOOWN!' to frantz over and over as some sorta instant karma in action
Who is it that says 'James Broooooown? James BROOOOOOOOWN!' in that song anyway? Was it Chris Franz? I always thought that was Bernie Worrell doing that!

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Thursday, 4 December 2003 20:47 (twenty-one years ago)

i like that you can actually see the band relax when byrne leaves in stop making sense and then tense up again in a 'jesus is back. look busy.' way when he comes back.

― cinniblount (James Blount), Thursday, 4 December 2003 20:48 (twenty-one years ago)

it's frantz custos

― cinniblount (James Blount), Thursday, 4 December 2003 20:48 (twenty-one years ago)

I've never given this stuff a moment's thought before, and having read that godawful article, am only marginally more likely to take the Weymouth-Frantz side because that jerk that wrote it thinks David Byrne's his pal.

― Colin Meeder (Mert), Friday, 5 December 2003 11:32 (twenty-one years ago)

it's like any divorce: like became hate, and outsiders will never untangle it

― mark s (mark s), Friday, 5 December 2003 11:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Mark S OTM. Look, maybe there just will never be another 1981 again.

Nothing any of the Heads has done since the break-up has been very good. Or rather, all of Byrne's solo stuff has been good, therefore ignorable.

But Naked is highly under-rated.

― musicmope (musicmope), Friday, 5 December 2003 16:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Anyone who wouldn't want this box set must be some sort of trees beatnik
Lissen up, G. I actual do kinda want it, in a sick twisted kinda way, but I'd have to go buy new furniture to house it, so it's really a $200 or $300 purchase instead of just $60. That's just not right. Maybe I could hang it from the ceiling by the elasticized part, though.

(By the way, welcome to the board!)

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Friday, 5 December 2003 17:14 (twenty-one years ago)

just get some plywood and nails, man! don't be a slave to ikea!

― amateur!st (amateurist), Friday, 5 December 2003 17:16 (twenty-one years ago)

B-b-but there's just something about the twee yuppie-friendly packaging of that Talko Headzo set that just screams "Buy a new Ikea shelving unit specifically designed to hold me! And some Glimma tealights! Oh and a special halogen lighting system so that you can highlight me with the flick of a switch! LOVE ME! LOVE ME! Oh, and get one of those shrimp salads and a swedish coffee while you're there. Don't worry, take your time. All your favourite hits from Little Creatures will be waiting for you when you get back!"

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Friday, 5 December 2003 19:18 (twenty-one years ago)

You people are so full of hate.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Friday, 5 December 2003 19:27 (twenty-one years ago)

you people (in general) : talking heads :: tina : david byrne

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Friday, 5 December 2003 19:32 (twenty-one years ago)

I m teh hata! But really this posturing is just me trying to cover up for the fact that I really want to get this set. But I want the Slayer set too. Someone should love me with money so I can love both of these bands with box set purchasez!

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Friday, 5 December 2003 19:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Sean, if you have to make a decision based on what the band members have said in print or in public, I'd say go with Slayer.

Talking heads, I bet, have never once uttered in between songs live "How many of you dig OLDER WOMEN? I mean how many of you sick motherfuckers dig older women OUT OF THE MOTHERFUCKIN' GRAAAAAVE?"

― donut bitch (donut), Friday, 5 December 2003 19:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Seems like pretty straightforward band shit really. Sensitive guy writes stuff, worries nobody likes it, magic somebody appears and says "I like it alot, I will help you make the world see it is great!", sensitive guy says "Cool! And btw you are also a genius" (while thinking "not really keeping help on-side is good!"), then in this case everybody in world said "wow, your stuff really is good!" and SG says "Cool, see! Your thinking my stuff was good just proves that you're normal! which I'm obviously not cuz I'm a genius'n'shit! heh" (Not that I don't still love T Heads. I liked that book as well, but then, I'm into stuff like Albert Goldman and '...And I Don't Want to Live this Life' and the Doors movie)

― dave q, Friday, 5 December 2003 19:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Talking heads, I bet, have never once uttered in between songs live "How many of you dig OLDER WOMEN? I mean how many of you sick motherfuckers dig older women OUT OF THE MOTHERFUCKIN' GRAAAAAVE?"
Give David Byrne enough Ayahuasca and some of those Brazilian boat drinks and he'll say things that would make Tom Araya's hair curl.

― Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Saturday, 6 December 2003 16:22 (twenty-one years ago)

two weeks pass...

TALKING HEADS
Once in a Lifetime
Sire/Warner Bros./ Rhino

Most pretentious objet de rock ever. Unique 5-x-17-inch design, suitable for storage with spare lumber, assures that the appreciations by Rick Moody, Mary Gaitskill, Maggie Estep, Dick Hebdige, Kyoichi Tsuzuki, and last but not least David Fricke will come loose if you dare read them. Illustrations include lovely water-colory thing of young teenager with severed penis. Fourth disc a DVD. Third disc loaded with True Stories and Naked, which I once thought overrated. I was wrong. They sucked. C

― amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 24 December 2003 14:45 (twenty-one years ago)

that's christgau not me

― amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 24 December 2003 14:45 (twenty-one years ago)

having read the rest of his column, i'm sorry i posted that. xgau is an ass.

― amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 24 December 2003 14:47 (twenty-one years ago)

why exactly?

― H (Heruy), Wednesday, 24 December 2003 15:29 (twenty-one years ago)

oh, i dunno, it was an overreaction to his little pithy summaries of entire careers which always take me about 30 minutes to figure out and when i do i don't feel any more enlightened.

― amateur!st (amateurist), Wednesday, 24 December 2003 16:26 (twenty-one years ago)

oh, i dunno, it was an overreaction to his little pithy summaries of entire careers which always take me about 30 minutes to figure out and when i do i don't feel any more enlightened.
-- amateur!st (amateur!s...), December 24th, 2003.

Fucking exactly. Best description of Christgau ever.

PS True Stories rocked.

― David Allen, Wednesday, 24 December 2003 21:38 (twenty-one years ago)

True Stories sucked/s the big one. That review is totally OTM. Please remaster the catalogue, Rhino. thanks.

also, to answer a much earlier question, this review summarizes my feelings on the Bowman book pretty well: http://www.seattleweekly.com/features/0129/arts-matos.php

― Matos @ Kate Silver's (Kate Silver), Wednesday, 24 December 2003 21:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, I liked the movie. Ill tell ya that.

― David Allen, Thursday, 25 December 2003 23:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Having finished listening to the box 10 min. ago, all I can say is:

"Why the fuck have I never listened to the Talking Heads before?"

(btw, my favourite cd is nº1 - tracks from 77/msab&f. Great stuff, sounds fresh to me)

― JP Almeida (JP Almeida), Thursday, 25 December 2003 23:44 (twenty-one years ago)

haha i've never read any christgau, he always seemed so old and never really wrote about music i was at all interested in. and was always vaguely bemused by your (amateurist) vehement dislike of him. but, anyway, yeh i e-mail on and off with frank kogan and as far as i know he 'likes' him or is 'interested' in him, whatever. so perhaps i should read him because frank's no idiot. yes, anyway: but i liked this sentence cs i'm not really sure how it works: 'Third disc loaded with True Stories and Naked, which I once thought overrated. I was wrong. They sucked.' obv. what is giving me cause for stop is the play between 'overrated' and 'sucked' and how they relate. which i can't really pin myself.

― cozen (Cozen), Thursday, 25 December 2003 23:54 (twenty-one years ago)

actually i have had nice things to say about xgau, i think the fact that i find him OTM (even his summary judgement of mildred bailey has a certain truth to it even if it's not the most important or interesting truth) on occasion makes the basic...un-seriousness of his approach and his appalling attempts at wordplay (in place of criticism sometimes) so risible. i mean he has very good--almost faultless-- taste if you restrict yourself to the domains over which he claims a kind of authority (the domains in which you might not have much interest cozen), but his limitations (not of taste as much as method) are pretty severe and he bumps up against them in seemingly every column, even the ones that also produce some jewels. what bothers me most i s'pose is that sometimes instead of trying to push past his limitations, or acknowledge them as such, he wields them proudly, which seems like a poor attitude for a professional critic and unfortunately the side of xgau which seems to be aped most consistently by the other village voice critics. (not all of them, and i can't pretend enough familiarity with kogan to assess him at all.)

― amateur!st (amateurist), Friday, 26 December 2003 00:05 (twenty-one years ago)

one thing i really do like about xgau is that he publicly changes his mind, sometimes profoundly--that's something to admire. and the general sense i get is that he is a friendly and open-minded and basically curious guy whose talents at bon mots sometimes (often) get teh better of him--when he fires off these summary dismissals of talented, well-love artists i am less furious at his bad taste as embarrassed that he couldn't think of something more sensible to say (or didn't try).

― amateur!st (amateurist), Friday, 26 December 2003 00:08 (twenty-one years ago)

he's the one who is like chuck eddy, remember? (haha sorry, i'm not getting at you with that, more frank.) (would you like me to recommend what i think are frank's best articles and then he can maybe recommend what he thinks are his too.)

i don't know if you have already but could you maybe give a rough outline of some fo the problems you see christgau has (or if you have, perhaps you could point me in the direction of that). i remember the let's parse xgau thread (ugh thinking about that name and xtine: i just had a horrible blurry image of bob xgau in crotchless pants with 'xgau' stitched onto the legs).

i don't really understand why public changing your mind is something to admire. perhaps because i quite openly toss and turn all over things i've said previously in my writing. gemini. (and i can remember derogatis being lambasted for the same when he was excusing it as bang-sian turning himself inside out) (although i think that was perhaps more for co-opting that generally accepted bad facet of lester's writing [although it is also acknowledged that that often gives his writing its force of pain and 'genius']).

paragraph 2 somewhat answered by the x-post.

― cozen (Cozen), Friday, 26 December 2003 00:14 (twenty-one years ago)

True Stories is a horror and left me unable to ever listen to the band again.

― Sean (Sean), Friday, 26 December 2003 00:17 (twenty-one years ago)

(frank kogan, greatest hits 'available on the internet' edition:

the disco-tex essay
death-rock 2000
drunken tiger
james chance
vs. scott woods)

― cozen (Cozen), Friday, 26 December 2003 00:21 (twenty-one years ago)

derogatis is just a bad writer with no ideas at all, so it doesn't matter what posture he adopts or whether he's changed his mind.... xgau is a pretty good writer with a lot of ideas...

― amateur!st (amateurist), Friday, 26 December 2003 00:23 (twenty-one years ago)

oh yeah this i know. or, glean.

― cozen (Cozen), Friday, 26 December 2003 00:25 (twenty-one years ago)

cozen are you on aim?

― amateur!st (amateurist), Friday, 26 December 2003 00:25 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah, cozenyo. i'm not too good though.

― cozen (Cozen), Friday, 26 December 2003 00:26 (twenty-one years ago)

amateurist - are you trying to say xgau has run up against one of limitations with Talking Heads, in the same way he does when he reviews, say, a metal album? Cos his Consumer Guide Talking Heads grades run: A-, A, A-, A, A-, A-, B+, A, B, B+ and now C. He once called them the world's greatest rock band (or said they were in the running, I forget).

You may be on about the limitation that is he doesn't like boxes. But I reckon it is because his aesthetic rests heavily on utility, and the review basically lays out the reasons he's never likely to play the box again.

― plebian plebs (plebian), Friday, 26 December 2003 08:51 (twenty-one years ago)

'Once in a Lifetime' vs 'Chicago IV: Live at Carnegie Hall'

― dave q, Friday, 26 December 2003 12:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Good Call! (having clicked and gone and looked it up...)

― plebian plebs (plebian), Friday, 26 December 2003 20:11 (twenty-one years ago)

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