Are post-rock bands [just] jam-bands?

At the same time, Tortoise -- who I just saw live last week -- is still interesting to me because they've always tweaked their sound from album to album. I'm not sure I could describe how they've changed, though: a lot of it has to do with production (For instance, TNT being put together almost entirely through ProTools gives it a more austere, electronic feel than anything else they've done). The newer stuff that Tortoise played live sounded kind of noisy, actually, which is a new step for them at least.

I'm going to think about what you said re: jam bands and come back.

i havent followed post-rock that much in the last few years, so i cant speak from knowledge, but what i love about "hex" (and my one Labradford reacord, "Stable Reference" to a lesser extent) is how well it fits into, for lack of a better phrase, my "pop life". It really is a pop record. Just as the new Kelis record is a great party song, "Hex" is a great late-night album (obvious but true). I don't feel as close to, say, "millions Now Living Will Never Die" because it sounds more like music to be admired, rather than adored (NB I do like the album). Its the difference between obscuring emotions behind "Art" instead of conveying emotions artistically.

It's always been a margin-walking genre anyways, and I bet that a lot of people who were turned on by some of the genres post-rock references probably moved onto "purer" forms of said genres anyways (ie post-rock got me to check out 20th century classical, but now i just listen to 20th century classical... maybe others got turned on by the electronics and moved on to Mille Plateux and then Luomo?).

(I also just remembered there was an archetypal hippie [white guy with dreads dancing in his own little world] at the Tortoise show.)

Here's what I think the difference is between MOST post-rock and jam bands, though: composition vs. improvisation. Jam bands seem to be more about getting loose and noodling around, whereas post-rock, even at its most chaotic and cacophonous, still feels very structured. (Which I think is ultimately why I prefer it.)

Ah, the hippie following...I've gotten that with different kinds of bands I've been in, it always makes you feel a bit dirty.

i dislike jam band music, so i am hoping we can discover more differences besides the sets of historical genres each scene draws upon ;-)

As it went on and all the obvious stuff was taken, we started reaching a bit. Then came the inevitable arguments: "X isn't a jam band! They're, you know, good!"

There's a moral in there somewhere.

I think "jam band = zone out" is a little disingenuous. I'm not a jam-band listener either (although i'll defend dave matthews band's crash ir prompted), but from what I've seen of live DVDs at friends' houses, or at the DMB show I saw in my teens, the big jam bands are revered for their virtuosity and committment. i mean, if you see Jimi Hendrix as 'zoning out,' the description probably applies, but for me it's almost more apt for the 'saw on my viola and then smoke a cigarette' attitude of Godspeed, f'instance.

in general, is the post/jam rock hate one-way? Do jam-band listeners hate post-rock when they hear it? (Though they might be bored by it[s lack of a groove], I'm guessing no... but why?) Cultural aesthetic seems to be heavily at play in the debate.

Jay, I think you're otm w/regard to the composition/improv thing, but it's certainly a very fine line. Tortoise, f/i, is extremely improv... Rachel's are not. But you're right - I can see the jam-kids liking Tortoise rather more than they'd like Rachel's...

Sean, while Tortoise certainly USES improvisation as a means to composing songs (influenced as they are by jazz, esp. Parker), the songs themselves feel composed. I doubt that anything they play on record is the first time they've played it.

One of the things that really caught me about the band Isis was that they could incorporate some of the textures that might be similar to Sigur Ros or perhaps Mogwai, but it is rock...there is much more tension in how it is executed.

I haven't heard the new Mogwai, as their last one called "Rock Action" and it had neither.

I looked at Cul de Sac on AMG, they do sound very interesting.

Ive noticed the post-rock/jam-rock connection myself. Usually it's with the less electronic post-rockers (which are usually the ones I like the least) that the connection is most obvious. Having played in bands that are usually heavily post rock influenced, I can say it is DEFINITELY a jamming mentality, only in a much different way. It's more about finding a little groove and building it and building it, in a minimilist sense, in stead of letting one guy get the groove while others solo.

Damn right. Post-rock vs. jam-band = goatees vs. white dreads.

I said it a long time ago and people basically laughed at me. Of course, now metal has essentially gotten redundant itself, so it all evens out.

-never understood the massive divide between prog, space, and "post rock" fans too-
Alan

I am fairly sure there isnt any. Maybe between prog and the other two, but space and post are for the most part, the same people.

That said, I would say that the future of "post rock" is whatever the bands that ARE supposed to be playing want it to be. It's hardly a genre. They can go psych, prog, noise, industrial, metal, whatever. As long as critics want to call anything outside the norm "post", there will be plenty of ideas to explore.

Of course, I'm just as guilty for perpetuating it heh.

With respect to rock, I think you're absolutely right. Granted there is plenty going on in other genres, but those left field metal bands kill most of it with easy swipes. I feel a little awkward saying that. I haven't been listening to that much metal lately.

I moved it. Well, actually, I nuked the old one and started a new one here.

Stuff to check out, on a more folk/pschedelic shelf--No Neck Blues Band, Jackie O Motherfucker, Sunburned Hand Of The Man, Tan As Fuck--even some dronier stuff like Bardo Pond's self-released CDRs and Vibracathedral Orchestra. Mostly improvised music, meandering, not terribly mathy. Elements of hippie culture sneak through (improvisation, obviously; pot smoking; facial hair), but the music isn't as boring and noodly.

jaymc is OTM above. I've been killing it with "post-rock" these days.

i mean, if you see Jimi Hendrix as 'zoning out,' the description probably applies, but for me it's almost more apt for the 'saw on my viola and then smoke a cigarette' attitude of Godspeed, f'instance.

god this is such a great description of gy!be

brand new Mogwai and Grails both rule, in a non-jam-band way. also, looking up-thread, regarding Do Make Say Think: their last album, other truths, the one with just four songs, is my favorite. they play with joy and humor, not just chops

recently i tried to give Umphrey's McGee's Mantis a listen and couldn't finish. the progness sounds forced, cover-band-ish, like they're straining to match someone else's achievement. i don't get that when i hear Neu! or Triode in Tortoise

im diggin Caspian lately. especially Moksha

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uB6QbOkntCo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D95pEg4fiP8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hO-IUnaIAHk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A89KSzsP5Dg

I've been thinking about this regarding stoner rock too. Like some jazz, it can sometimes be tricky to discern what is composed and what is improvised. It's ironic that I spent years hating on bands like Grateful Dead and Phish, then got way into Colour Haze, who I recently wrote about. Sonic Youth even expressed the desire to be seen as a jam band of sorts, particularly in wanting the kind of loyal fanbase those bands have. Colour Haze has several songs near the 20 minute mark among their nine albums, but I don't find them boring like a lot of bands with long pieces. I think what they said in this interview partly explains why:

Improvisation on stage is a difficult thing. So many things need to be in the right shape if it should turn out good - monitor, sound, mood, audience, and as you are often occupied with so many things that don't work on stage and the way we tour you also hardly have the chance to work under perfect circumstances. We rather have improvisations in fixed parts than doing on stage what we actually can do in the rehearsal where we're taking off in creating free music. Live we want to give a good show to the people and not want to bore them with some risky attempts that maybe fail. I think we will take more risks about that in the future though and will show more of what we can do when we are inspired and play free. About other bands: I love it to see bands like Motorpsycho lifting off in improvised music but I`m completely bored by spacerock bands which lay endless solos on a simple and constant rhythm pattern. I guess I`m too much into music to enjoy a thoughtless show-off of finger-moving-abilities.

xp

cougar is awesome. got to see them once on the terrace in madison

do you live in madison, reggie?

i did for eight years. still miss the isthmus

cool (i'm still there).

i lived on lol state street, and on the east side, on spaight, a block from the lake. great town. amazing beer

where on spaight? that's where i'm at, the neighborhood is so great.

i know a lot of late 20s jam banders who are really into LCD Soundsystem.

a couple blocks down from orton park. now that spring's coming on, i am fiending to stroll around that neighborhood, then grab a pitcher of lake louie something or other at the wisco or the weary or the crystal corner

The way forward is for post rock bands to copy BP, not sonically (thatd also be cool) but by only releasing a new album every 10 years