The hip-hop aesthetic

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On Hipster Detritus, Nate called Kill Bill "hip-hop as fuck". What does it mean for work in other artforms to have this sensibility? Where does/doesn't it work? Is there a default aesthetic or does this change as the music/culture does? Can "hip-hop" films/art/writing ever catch up or overtake the music and be on the cutting edge? What is the common thread between the work of people like Jean-Michel Basquiat, Tarantino, Paul Beatty, and say, Lil' Jon or Aesop Rock?

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Friday, 12 December 2003 22:20 (twenty-two years ago)

So many questions...

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Friday, 12 December 2003 22:20 (twenty-two years ago)

...I guess, in the broadest sense, this question can be stated as "what is hip-hop?"...

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Friday, 12 December 2003 22:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh dear god no.... this thread is bound to summon... shit, I can't say his name three times or I will be damned to walk the halls of ILX for eternity.

― donut bitch (donut), Friday, 12 December 2003 22:24 (twenty-two years ago)

I realize I'm opening a kingsize can of worms here....

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Friday, 12 December 2003 22:25 (twenty-two years ago)

...one that has probably been slammed shut a million times before on ILM. I mean, that thread title is just asking for it, but my typing hands seemed to take on a life of their own...

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Friday, 12 December 2003 22:26 (twenty-two years ago)

I expect some kind of nonsense from Geir, and one or two angry words from jess, then we'll all crack jokes and then we can all go home.

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Friday, 12 December 2003 22:29 (twenty-two years ago)

See, that's hip hop right there. A clash of sensibilities that produces something new and vital!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 12 December 2003 22:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Good lookin' out, Raggett!

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Friday, 12 December 2003 22:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Woo! Etc.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 12 December 2003 22:32 (twenty-two years ago)

blah blah blah you pieces of shit

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 12 December 2003 22:32 (twenty-two years ago)

can i go home now? i'm sleepy.

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 12 December 2003 22:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Alternately, we can all muse on whatever else is on my mind today:

Do cherry bombs actually work?

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Friday, 12 December 2003 22:33 (twenty-two years ago)

darren aronofsky's pi commentary to thread

― bill stevens (bscrubbins), Friday, 12 December 2003 23:27 (twenty-two years ago)

aw shit its actually the commentary in requiem for a dream. woops.

basically where he goes on and on about the pill popping montage as 'sampling'

― bill stevens (bscrubbins), Friday, 12 December 2003 23:29 (twenty-two years ago)

I still can't bring myself to like any music made by black folk.
It's just not in me.

― adam michel, Friday, 12 December 2003 23:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Picasso: Hip Hop as Fuck
http://www.usc.edu/dept/architecture/slide/babcock/picasso/picassoimages/77.jpg

― oops (Oops), Friday, 12 December 2003 23:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Not even the four tops.

― adam michel, Friday, 12 December 2003 23:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Aronofsky, the director of such hit films as Pi and Requiem for a Dream, refers to his editing style as "the hip hop montage". I'm not sure if I care to explain, but it does ties in nicely with the topic.

― James Slone (Freon Trotsky), Friday, 12 December 2003 23:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Oops, I should have read ahead.

― James Slone (Freon Trotsky), Friday, 12 December 2003 23:43 (twenty-two years ago)

I still can't bring myself to like any music made by black folk.
It's just not in me.

-- adam michel (adamrt...), December 12th, 2003.

Yeah, that's more like it.

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Saturday, 13 December 2003 00:04 (twenty-two years ago)

jess, i wasn't referring to you in my original quip.. nor tr*f*, just for the record.

― donut bitch (donut), Saturday, 13 December 2003 00:07 (twenty-two years ago)

"quip"! ;P

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Saturday, 13 December 2003 00:08 (twenty-two years ago)

I am vuideo m,an.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Saturday, 13 December 2003 00:12 (twenty-two years ago)

C'mon, you bastards! Quit circling like sharks and have at me with your pointed sticks!!!

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Saturday, 13 December 2003 00:13 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.studiosoft.it/images/ArtsPicabia.jpg

No, Picabia is more hip-hop.

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Saturday, 13 December 2003 00:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Maybe not. Picabia might be more punk funk.

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Saturday, 13 December 2003 00:18 (twenty-two years ago)

i don't really want to single nate out here because i've heard this from a bunch of people ... but i think it's nonsense. i think tarantino is selling a violent, misogynistic swagger to his audience - is that "hip-hop as fuck"? well, tarantino movies don't make me think of roc or eve or young mc, for what it's worth.

― vahid (vahid), Saturday, 13 December 2003 00:47 (twenty-two years ago)

btw "violent, misogynistic swagger" is not a value judgement.

― vahid (vahid), Saturday, 13 December 2003 01:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah man, you've gotta be careful when you swing that particular dick around here.

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Saturday, 13 December 2003 01:32 (twenty-two years ago)

well, yeah.

― vahid (vahid), Saturday, 13 December 2003 01:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Gentile- hip-hop.
Baresi- AOR.
Maldini- indie

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Saturday, 13 December 2003 04:16 (twenty-two years ago)

There's nothing hip-hop about gentiles!

― @d rock (nordicskilla), Saturday, 13 December 2003 06:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Picabia:Picasso::Aesop Rock:Lil Jon

― spittle (spittle), Saturday, 13 December 2003 21:13 (twenty-two years ago)

(NB I am not suggesting that Lil John:hip hop::Picasso:Modern art)

― spittle (spittle), Saturday, 13 December 2003 21:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Vierchowod - death metal.

― fletcher dexter, Saturday, 13 December 2003 23:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Context context context! Not hip-hop necessarily in content (violence, blood, vengeance, pussy wagons) but in form:

"The kinds of film nerds who bitch that "it just ripped off a bunch of old movies" remind me of the crusty rockists who whinge "It's only other peoples' beats! They don't write their own songs!" RZA's influence on the soundtrack aside, though, I'm coming to the conclusion that, much like the way Taxi Driver's porn-theater squalor and dead-end desperation was a visual catalyst for a longstanding tradition of rock and roll nihilism that at this particular time referred to itself as "punk", Kill Bill Vol. 1 takes the best moments of '60s and '70s cinema -- "breaks", if you will -- and freestyles over them. And this is on some severe Paul's Boutique shit right here."

Granted, it's coming from a "C in Intro Film Studies" mindset here, but it felt like Tarantino was reassembling previous loves into a new super-behemoth party-rockin' park jam to me.

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Sunday, 14 December 2003 01:25 (twenty-two years ago)

donut: I have no idea whether you're talkin' about the Norske boogeyman or the Eyepatch boogieman.

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Sunday, 14 December 2003 01:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Context context context! Not hip-hop necessarily in content (violence, blood, vengeance, pussy wagons) but in form

Well, that's pretty much how I did read it. Sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear about that.

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Sunday, 14 December 2003 01:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Kill Bill is akin to a oft-stated and misinformed criticisms of hip-hop:

The pointless recycling of old ideas (sampling), due to a lack of creativity.

I don't think this is true of hip-hop, but I do think it's true of Kill Bill. I really disliked that movie.

― Debito (Debito), Sunday, 14 December 2003 02:01 (twenty-two years ago)

meaning that hip-hop uses samples to create a new, fresh idea with it's own merit. Moreover, this new idea is all the more compelling because it references the old idea. that reference doesn't just pay homage. it's inclusion makes a new statement.

Kill Bill was just stupid.

― Debito (Debito), Sunday, 14 December 2003 02:05 (twenty-two years ago)

i think kill bill is a great hip-hop movie and it worked even better than ghost dog which was a more self-conscious attempt to create a cool hip-hop movie(i liked ghost dog though).there are a lot of interesting comparisons you could make between the two films besides the most obvious-RZA. i would love to read an interview with him where he talks about how he feels about both those movies. and a hip-hop movie as nate was describing it should not be confused with movies that hip-hoppers love a la king of new york & scarface. or maybe they are just examples of the gangsta aesthetic(insasmuch as they helped to create the gangsta aesthetic)

― scott seward, Sunday, 14 December 2003 02:13 (twenty-two years ago)

I think the movies that come closest to some h**-h** a******* would be shit like self-consciously h**-h** stuff. State Property, Bloody Streetz, whatever, Barbershop, all that straight to DVD stuff starring WC and stuff with fullpage ads in XXL, which all could be, like, extended skits from an actual r** album. Ultraviolent Hollywood stuff with RZA scores, no. Blah blah blah you pieces of shit.

― d k (d k), Sunday, 14 December 2003 02:45 (twenty-two years ago)

noticing no difference between state property, barbershop, and "whatever" other flick you can't remember the name of is definitely some blah blah blah shit.rapsploitation straight to video stuff doesn't always equal hip-hop as fuck.they can of course. but most of the time they are violent as fuck or rap as fuck or gangsta as fuck or dumb as fuck.and if we are very lucky, occasionally goofy, wild, and crazy as fuck. barbershop is not hip hop as fuck. it's funny as fuck(or at least i thought so) and it stars famous rappers, but it isn't the same thing. sorry.

― scott seward, Sunday, 14 December 2003 03:51 (twenty-two years ago)

there are a lot of interesting comparisons you could make between the two films besides the most obvious-RZA

most overrated soundtracks ever?

― vahid (vahid), Sunday, 14 December 2003 03:59 (twenty-two years ago)

i really liked the ghost dog soundtrack. i don't remember how overrated it was. i liked the music in kill bill, but i haven't heard the OST.

― scott seward, Sunday, 14 December 2003 04:15 (twenty-two years ago)

The Warriors is hip-hop as fuck
The Tai Chi Master is hip-hop as fuck
John Woo has made lotsa movies that are hip-hop as fuck
Penitentiary 3 is hip-hop as fuck
Escape From New York is hip-hop as fuck

― scott seward, Sunday, 14 December 2003 04:34 (twenty-two years ago)

none of those movies are hip-hop at all!

― vahid (vahid), Sunday, 14 December 2003 04:38 (twenty-two years ago)

that's what you think.

― scott seward, Sunday, 14 December 2003 04:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Okay. Maybe 20something hipster assholes that buy the one mandated and the one I-didn't-expect-you-to-know-about-that r** albums every year (This is you, despite anything you say-- unless you're older or something, which works fine) appreciate Kill Bill and shitty kung fu and whatever other shitty cult movies, comic books, whatever in the same way they appreciate h**-h**. No emotional investment, cultural investment, whatever. Your idea of what h**-h** is and whatever the a******** is, is kind of bad and outdated, maybe.

― d k (d k), Sunday, 14 December 2003 04:49 (twenty-two years ago)

This is you, despite anything you say

hee hee, you are a weirdo, but that's cool. the line above is why i won't be arguing with you. have fun on ilm with your cogent blah blah blah, whatever, shit.(i mean why bother?)

― scott seward, Sunday, 14 December 2003 04:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Checkmate.

― d k (d k), Sunday, 14 December 2003 05:00 (twenty-two years ago)

d k put down the "Ethan P Playbook: How To Make An Argument That Makes Everyone Involved Feel, Look, and Actually Become Stupider" and start to grow up.

As for Tarantino and his *supposed relation* to hip-hop, I don't see much of it at all (if hip-hop WAS only Wu-Tang Clan sampling exploitation films and dusty scores it might make sense, but that's really only the most topical element of the Clan and certainly doesn't apply to most/many/any other hip-hoppers). If anything Tarantino's more like a bar cover band, taking other people's songs and then playing/reinterpreting (ever so slightly) them (often energeticly and sometimes inventively and sometimes badly and ALWAYS with lots of between song banter.) What he does with movies isn't what I would think of as sampling (which cinematically would seem to involve something more along the lines of The Limey using chunks of Poor Cow but on an even much greater level, actually building a whole movie out of a previous movie, rather than just occassionally referencing sequences in flashbacks.)

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Sunday, 14 December 2003 05:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Alex in SF, yes yes. That's what I was trying to say.

― Debito (Debito), Sunday, 14 December 2003 05:27 (twenty-two years ago)

seward vs. dk is the match-up i've been waiting my whole life to see!! and, though subtle, it was just was great as i thought it would be!

― Sonny A. (Keiko), Sunday, 14 December 2003 05:44 (twenty-two years ago)

so you'd recommend this thread to a friend?

― oops (Oops), Sunday, 14 December 2003 11:01 (twenty-two years ago)

haha - dk's been working that '________'s who buy only one hip-hop album a year' line like crazy lately! dk we see thru you for the choad you are! give it up!

― cinniblount (James Blount), Sunday, 14 December 2003 11:07 (twenty-two years ago)

when dk thought of that '_______'s who buy only one hip-hop album a year' line he...

1) was just about to masturbate
2) was masturbating
3) had just finished masturbating
4) had just bought the one hip-hop album he was gonna buy that year

― cinniblount (James Blount), Sunday, 14 December 2003 11:08 (twenty-two years ago)

cuz clearly the man was inspired

― cinniblount (James Blount), Sunday, 14 December 2003 11:10 (twenty-two years ago)

If "Kill Bill" is violent and misogynistic, then it has a least two things in common with most hip-hop....

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Sunday, 14 December 2003 11:55 (twenty-two years ago)

I was horny a minute ago, so I went on Google looking for free pics. I typed in "suicide girls" in the image search. I was dismayed when they gave me this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1365000/images/_1369648_coffin300.jpg

I felt bad about what I had just typed and lost my erection. Geir, don't you have this reflex? The first part anyway?

― DarrensCoq, Sunday, 14 December 2003 12:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Note to self: Try to remember that you are not a twentysomething music writer. Do not disrespect or contradict those who are. You are not entitled to make generalizations like you did. Also, leave the deciding of what a h**-h** a******** is up to those who are qualified, Breeders fans that believe kung-fu movies are 'h**-h** as f***.' And stop being so mean! (Have you ever considered smiley faces?) ;-)

― d k (d k), Sunday, 14 December 2003 23:50 (twenty-two years ago)

haha

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Sunday, 14 December 2003 23:52 (twenty-two years ago)

ts: dk as mini-trife vs. blount as pee-wee softball coach

― fiddo centington (dubplatestyle), Sunday, 14 December 2003 23:55 (twenty-two years ago)

he IS pretty cute!

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Sunday, 14 December 2003 23:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Breeders fans? You mean Strokes fans, dipshit

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Monday, 15 December 2003 00:01 (twenty-two years ago)

You want to be next?

― d k (d k), Monday, 15 December 2003 00:09 (twenty-two years ago)

http://goldberg.wwe.com/images/38.jpg

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Monday, 15 December 2003 00:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Get that away from me.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 15 December 2003 00:12 (twenty-two years ago)

pls don't give me the jackhammer, d k

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Monday, 15 December 2003 00:13 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.americandreamcars.com/1953porscheracer.jpg

― d k (d k), Monday, 15 December 2003 00:21 (twenty-two years ago)

This thread is pure hilarity.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 15 December 2003 00:24 (twenty-two years ago)

But is it hip-hop?

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Monday, 15 December 2003 00:33 (twenty-two years ago)

But is it art?

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Monday, 15 December 2003 00:35 (twenty-two years ago)

No, it's nerd-y bullshit. But it's amusing none-the-less.

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 15 December 2003 00:36 (twenty-two years ago)

There's a hyphen in "nerdy"? Dude, man!

I wish this thread was about how great that KABOOM product-placement was instead.

― nate detritus (natedetritus), Monday, 15 December 2003 00:41 (twenty-two years ago)

So I gotta ask the question: how old is d k and where is he from? Because for some reason I think he is like 17 and from New Zealand and that's making this whole thing that much funnier (but if he's not either than I guess I should know.)

― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 15 December 2003 00:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Ah, to be 17 and from New Zealand again....those were the days.

― Matt Helgeson (Matt Helgeson), Monday, 15 December 2003 00:53 (twenty-two years ago)

i used to think that trife was from somewhere in europe which made his slang and tone seem really funny to me, but then i kinda figured out that he was from the states and he didn't seem as funny anymore. at least he knows how to argue a point though(kinda. in a hip-hop geir/momus way). ddrake the other rap troll is 19 i believe. but age is just a number. heck, i know 7 year olds who can string a sentence together without it disappearing into a puff of incomprehensibility.
i don't come here to fight though. with kids or anyone else. argue, yes. if someone has something worth arguing about.

― scott seward, Monday, 15 December 2003 01:15 (twenty-two years ago)

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