independent labels dying?

Surprising to hear that about them -- I'd have thought the Belle and Sebastian moment alone would have filled their coffers for years to come.

In non-rock arenas (as Jess noted), they're thriving. Check the Independent charts on Billboard.com - that's what sells. In the land of guitars and drums, though, there are still PLENTY of low-level labels scurrying around, making li'l pockets of noise, doin' their thang. That's not going to change any time soon. It's never died - regardless of what Alternative Press might say - and it's not going to, as long as there's someone willing to drop a few thousand to put out a friend's record.

The BIG names, though - the Matadors, the Sub Pops, the Grand Royals - all allied themselves (at one point or another) with the Big Boys. I know for a fact that both Matador and Sub Pop were partially owned by major label interests at one point - the majority of the label was still owned by its founders, but the corporate percentage was probably 49%. None of them have had a major success like, for instance, Epitath (with the Offspring and, to a lesser extent, Rancid, receiving much love from the mainstream punk explosion) or even Lookout (via Green Day's success).

Well, yeah, there was that Sub Pop / Nirvana thing. Whoops. Of course, there have been rumours of Sub Pop's demise for quite a while.

It just strikes me as odd that most of the labels mentioned have been able to sustain themselves, given the amount of product they're promoting, and the number of bands they're sponsoring. It's tough enough to keep one's head above water when just trying to release an album by yourself (& the pro bono help of your friends) - spending money on radio promotions, magazine promotions, and all sorts of staff can't be good when a group hasn't even gone Gold (a milestone I don't believe Belle & Sebastian has reached, unfortunately).

The eclectisism of both labels is definitely worth praising - especially Matador, offering more outside of the "usual" rock music stuff - but I'm not sure it's fiscally prudent.

Look at the stuff Sub Pop releases right now-- crappy, no-subtlety rock like Nebula, the Makers, and the Murder City Devils makes up a big chunk of the roster, and then you have Damien Jurado and they recently released a fucking Bruce Springsteen tribute record. There's just too much terrible stuff that no one will buy taking up room on the payroll.

Matador, to a lesser extent, has the same problem... they have some really interesting stuff-- Pole, Dalek and Matmos come to mind-- but hands up, who's digging the new Khan or Sad Rockets records?

I think it's too bad if Matador's going down, but I think if they are they (and Sub Pop) are dying because they waste too much money on going-nowhere artists, and not because of some economic problem that's killing independent labels.

I wonder if anyone here knows how Merge stands, profit-wise? It occurred to me last year that they've sort of switched places with Matador, whose roster used to feature most of the bigger-name indie artists/records (Pavement, Yo La Tengo, Belle and Sebastian, Cat Power, John Spencer, Cornelius, etc.) Whereas over the past few years, Merge has suddenly started doing better with non-Superchunk releases: 69 Love Songs (and, after that, the Mag Fields back catalog), Lambchop, Neutral Milk Hotel, Versus, the Clientele. It's as if they're filling the hole Matador leaves as it moves toward becoming either Warp or an Arsonists vanity label.

Well, I wasn't offering that as a general principle-- that would be completely stupid. I was just using it to explain these particular cases.

I'd bet this was one of the label's better-selling and more profitable records of the past couple of years. Is Sub Pop really that bad off? Its releasing a lot of product these days, can it be doing that poorly? That "no-subtlety" rock probably has a decent following for whatever reason (the Hellacopters and the Go, as well as those mentioned above; Pleasure Forever, too, although they're less straightforward rawk) and the Indie Pop arm of Sub Pop can't be hurting it, either (Saint Etienne, Shins, Looper, Beachwood Sparks, Trembling Blue Stars, Red House Painters, Damon and Naomi, a few Joe Pernice products, and, yes, D. Jurado) and I'd certainly take most of that group over the stuff the label was releasing five or six years ago.

David's right about the really little guys; if anything, there may be too many labels around, there's a ridiculous amount of product released. It's some of the midlevels that if, say, one Smog album sorely underperforms, could collapse.Sadly, some of the Chicago labels (drag city, thrill jockey) are always teetering and need the shot in the arm that Merge got the past couple of years. Neither have much of a staff or ad budget.

God, what a horrifying thought. As for Drag City and Thrill Jockey, as long as Corey Rusk and Touch and Go are willing to put up the fight they'll stay afloat.

Re: the glut of Sub Pop product - during Creation Records' dire straits, they released a SLEW of records, hoping that the sales of the new product would do nothing more than produce revenue for the company. (Granted, I'm just recapitulating what I read - if Everett / Jerry is still around, he'd know best.)

But to return to Fritz's original question - I wouldn't be surprised if file-sharing has had a deleterious effect. When thousands of people download Britney Spears and *NSYNC, the supposed "losses" are minimal compared to the actual sales revenue generated. However (and this is all supposition), I'd wager that "indie" fans (mostly in college) are savvier and more "in touch" with the internet, AND on a tighter budget. It only takes a few kids from various college radio stations to throw the latest Superchunk / Pedro the Lion / Preston School of Industry on the 'web for all to listen.

Of course, this wouldn't be a problem if folks actually followed the ideal plan and PURCHASED said albums (assuming they liked them). Maybe that's the problem right there - sales are dropping due to a customer's prior knowledge of the product.

The only things I know about Razor & Tie are that they released the last Dar Williams album, and that their post-punk compilation (Totally Wired) is out-of-print, which is CRIMINAL.

Meanwhile, Secretly Canadian is chuggin' along as well, with plans to release the entire back catalog of ex-Jacobite / ex-Swell Map (?) Nikki Sudden. And anyone giving the Danielson Familie a home is A-OK in my book.

Sympathy will be able to maintain themselves because they don't generally pay the bands, don't send out promo or buy ads and don't keep their old records in stock until each pressing of 1,000 is sold out. I'm not knocking them, it's probabably the only way a lot of those records would come out at all.

As for Matador distributing Warp (mentioned above), Warp's had an American arm since late 2000, so they, and not Matador, Tommy Boy and Nothing, are distributing their own records now. Given Matador's slate this year (Eitzel, Downes, and others) I think they're entering the AAA-market.

And the Springsteen comp was a benefit album, so they shouldn't have profitted from it.

Both of which I just picked up cheap at my local store, so I'm glad for Crypt hanging in there for that.

Recently, I've heard of some US distribution issues w/ Parasol Music (labels / bands not receiving their $$$), and one well-known "punk" distributor (Saul Goodman, MD) just declared bankruptcy, thereby screwing a good # of labels in the process (since you can't collect moolah from a company legally claiming poverty - forgive me if my understanding of the business world is a bit ... spotty).

Everything I know about the workings of the underground I learned from the Simple Machines Mechanics' Guide to Putting Out Records. Click here for more information. I'm all but sure I'm missing a few major parts of the puzzle - that explanation seems too basic to be the truth.

distributors' costs are warehousing and shipping - relatively cheap compared to labels' & stores' expenses. stores can send back a certain percentage of unsold product to the distributor. the distributor can then send back a certain percentage to the label. of course, it's in the distro's interest to make sure the records get sold so they make their cut, but they shouldn't be as likely to be wiped out as a label if things go sour.

I think a better explanation for small-label woes is the overall economic situation. In case anyone hasn't noticed yet, we're in a recession now. Though officially we're just "heading towards recession." (The government and media would probably say that if fistfights were breaking out at bread lines). Small, auteur labels are a sufferance of a rich, connosieur public.

In any case, as some others have said, a few big indies going down hardly signifies the end of an era. There's still a buffer of about a million and one little outfits between us and musical starvation.

I have recently tried to buy direct from labels/artists if possible... often to be rewarded with poor communication, slow shipping (weeks or more), and higher prices. I get that label owners and artists have other stuff going on but it's still obnoxious.

One recent purchase I could have done through bandcamp for less money with instant downloads. Instead I bought for a couple dollars more from the label web site, it took more than a month to arrive and then they said they couldn't provide download codes. Last time I'll be buying from them.

huh, i feel like i've had the opposite experience lately with buying direct from labels... guess it just depends.